New to Horses and could do with some behavioural assistance

If the field has little grass in it, the yard should be putting hay/haylage out for them. I assume he's on full livery?

I can't imagine that he needs all that feed, but trying to tell yards how much and what you want feeding often can go ignored.

You have a large advantage if you are used to being around dogs/other animals. If you treat him like a large badly behaved dog in the way you are around him, you won't go far wrong.

I haven't had horses an awfully long time (8 years) but have been brought up around animals. You soon pick up very quickly in the horses body language and behaviour. Most interesting thing I have seen was at a yard when trying to catch ponies in various situations, and they weren't playing ball.

The people that weren't used to animals were making the worst job of it, as they just couldn't read the body language of the horse, and had no idea how to "round them up".
 
I completely agree with Ellenjay.
Fair and firm leadership where he respects and is willing to learn what it is your asking of him. If you push him too hard or expect him to understand something he doesn't yet know his reaction would be one of defiance.
I have a 3 1/2 yr old Sec D who is not yet backed but is so intelligent and willing to learn. Most of the time he is totally chilled and easy going. We work slowly, very calmly with constant praise.
There have been challenging times when he does his Pulp fiction - Samuel L jackson 'I will strike down upon you with great vengeance' look in his eye - that is immediately dealt with and I send him away, backing him away from me with a stern 'Back and No' It works and he's back to being a dope.
He is out during the day and in at night. Fed Dengie's Hi Fi Lite and a cup of Baileys No 14 for his vits/mins with a cap of linseed oil. A bit of hay and he grazes on his straw bed !
When I bought him last year from a stud in Lampeter the owner gave me centuries of advice handed down to him. Most importantly is give him several years to mature, ask too much and your ruin him. Keep his weight down regardless of the pressure to get that 'show cob' look.
Hopefully I will be backing him over the next few months but no hurry with this one :)
Good luck and persevere - you have a cracking boy there :D
 
cundlegreen said:
Good reading for you would be Richard maxwell books or any of the mark rashid books. Really do work!
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Second this
You sound like someone with more sense/brains than a lot of so called experienced horse people, get someone with a good reputation to help you and I'm sure you'll be fine. Absolutely make sure he gets as much turn out as possible though.
 
Lots of good advice already given, but I wanted to repeat the feed point.

One of ours is highly sensitive to sugar and turns into a scary horse when on it. Sugarbeet and Speedibeet are both no goes, even though the manufacturer says should be okay. That horse now only gets a balancer (Top Spec's). So feed research is a must.

The grass still has sugar in it due to the odd weather pattern. If he's out for seven hours a day and has ad lib hay (two haylage nets full should do him - they have smaller holes, which should help to keep him occupied), plus a handful of balancer then he should be getting enough to eat.
 
mandwhy said:
The trouble with horses is they like to get the better of you by gradually encroaching on your space and bending the rules (section Ds probably more than anything),
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They certainly do end up bending rules, though I wouldn't say they "like to get the better of you".

and the trouble with humans is we are soft on them and it is easy to let them get away with it when we think they are being cute wanting to be near you and nuzzle you etc. You just need to start reintroducing strict boundaries, as said above don't give him an inch! If he starts to overtake, barge or walk behind you when leading, stop and reposition, if he barges then push him out of your space and maintain a bubble around you that you get him out of if he comes in uninvited, eventually you will be able to shoo him back with your arms and he will start to get the picture.
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Agree with all of the above.

A good time to do this is make sure he stands back at feed time and does not shove his head into the bucket before you say so. It will take a while for him to realise you/your daughter is the boss, but you will be able to set him straight pretty quickly.
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Respectfully disagree with this, especially given this pony is protective and anxious over food. (For my take on this, look at the recent thread "Feeding, do you handle your horses when they are eating?")

Boxcleva, you want him to feel comfortable at feed time with you around. You definitely don't want to get confrontational with him or else you could easily see more aggressive behaviours emerging. Concentrate on getting the manners you want - calmly, firmly and above all consistently - respect will be the end product of that process. Instilling respect first to get the manners you want sounds logical and appealing, but it's actually an unhelpful way of thinking which can lead to more trouble - I've seen that happen too many times. If it works, it's only because you have also done the other things right!

Has he tried biting you at all? With the ground work/in hand acting up, its probably because he doesn't respect his handler enough, so you need to improve basic handling and work up from there,
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The lack of respect you see is the bad behaviour.

but the fact your daughter wants to do things on the ground is a good sign. She could have a go at clicker training, its fun and I have found it useful but might not recommend if the horse gets aggressive about food!
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Clicker training can be useful - maybe even helpful in this case - but it has to be done right and you will need to be correct and accurate with a horse who has issues with food. It's a sharp tool, so be careful!

BoxCleva said:
I also had no idea that him walking a foot or two behind me was him also showing defiance.
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It doesn't necessarily! People have different preferences when it comes to relative positions in leading. None is "right", particularly as far as the horse is concerned. Just teach your pony where you want him to walk by being consistent in your requests and corrections.

I strongly concur with those who suggest turnout, and getting someone experienced to help you. Good luck!
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
In regards to the feeding, unlike a dog you couldn't put the feed down and expect the horse to leave it until you said "go", how ever you should be making them submit to you when you put the feed in. I expect my horse to back up and look to the side when I open his door.
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I disagree, my cob will wait until I tell him "OK" and then he will eat - I trained him the same way I trained my dog :)

Boxcleva I think his weight looks fine, you do not want an overweight native as then you are asking for problems (laminitis etc). As I and others have said natives are designed to get maximum nutrition from minimum food so good quality ad lib hay (if he is stabled overnight you should aim to have a little bit of hay left over by morning - double or triple net if needs be, which is what I do with my cob who is welsh x) and a vit/min supplement in some chaff should be enough :)

As for any little nicks or scrapes get yourself a big pot of sudocrem from the supermarket! It's very cheap and very effective :)
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
I disagree, my cob will wait until I tell him "OK" and then he will eat - I trained him the same way I trained my dog :)
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Indeed, you can train anything you like. :) What matters is why and how.

If it's for personal convenience and safety, then I would say fine, go ahead. If it's just to make a point about "respect", then I think it's misguided and a waste of time. If the animals aren't upset, or one manages to minimize the upset and stay in their comfort zone, that's great. On the other hand, ploughing ahead regardless of adverse reactions or attempting to punish them for behaving in a perfectly understandable way is frankly bonkers and poor horsemanship in my opinion. (Not accusing you of that, BBH - just speaking generally.)
 
Oh definitely - you need to pick your battles :) The reason I do it is because his dinner/haynet is generally in his stable when he comes in, so now I can push him back and have him wait whilst I change his rug without him diving for his food as he's a very food orientated, big lump!
 
It sounds like your already aware his diet and lack of turnout is what has cuased him to change, i have a mare that cannot have sugar she will turn into a real handfull and she is out nearly twelve hours a day most days, i feed both mine fast fibre and hi fi molasses free they both love it and do well on it, i think once he starts going out again and his feed is changed he will settle down, good luck
 
Agree with stopping the mix and sugar beet. The latter can be switched to an un molassed version such as speedi or kwik beet to carry any mineral supplementation needed. Yes, also look at his management.

Ime horses need to be trained/taught what is expected of them (manners) and humans need to be consistent in their training and handling at all times. Look into ways to train him that have the emphasis on the human doing the learning. :D The support of a good trainer who understands how horses behave and learn would be good too. They will also be able to keep you humans on the straight and narrow with your technique and consistency.
 
Hi boxcleva, hope things are going well with pony.
i just wanted to ad i think his weight looks fine, if he is out 12hrs over day over winter thas great, i would cut out all hard feed (mine has never had any she is a 5yr old welsh d) if he has as much good hay as he eats overnight that should be plenty. remember to start reducing it as the spring comes round again. you really want him coming out of winter a bit underweight as nature intended or it can lend him towards health problems later inlife
do the yard where you keep him not offer any help os assistance or are you just after a few more ideas on stuff.

good luck
 
Hi Folks,
Just an update on this.

Things really began to come to a head when the pony squashed my daughter against a fence and he bolted (twice) . Thankfully the stables are in the middle of nowhere, so he never made it to a road and my daughter escaped with only damaged pride and confidence. To add to his other very antisocial behaviour he had also begun biting :rolleyes: So we pretty much had a 'full house' with regard to behaviour and discipline.

After contacting several trainers and behaviourists we were even more dejected as they were either off work due to pregnancy/long time illness or too busy or too far away. Nightmare :mad:

We were we all pretty much at the point of giving up as when we finally did get someone out (not a qualified trainer, more of an experienced owner) they suggested we sell him and put our money into a 'proper' horse.

Anyway, to cut a very long boring story short , just over a week ago the lady that lives on the site very kindly offered to do some work with him. What a difference after only one session :eek: The pony has completely changed for the sake of 1.5 hours work with a Dually :D There's still an awful long way to go but he will now stand, backup, trot, lunge, and he doesn't bolt! My daughter even rode him last weekend. She hasn't been able to ride him since late October.
We are working with him everyday , but the difference is truly amazing. Being able to lunge him today was brilliant (as you can probably tell I've never done it before) and his manners thereafter were very good. He still pushes boundaries and I can see that carrying on for an awful long time, but then if he didn't i'd have nothing to learn about or work for ;)

Thanks to all who kindly offered assistance , it is very much appreciated.
 
I am so glad things are going better with the pony.

I don't mean to be a misery guts, but remain very vigilant, a 4 year old horse is a bad match with a child. He will need a couple of years of training by someone experienced before he becomes suitable for your daughter.
 
Booboos said:
I don't mean to be a misery guts, but remain very vigilant, a 4 year old horse is a bad match with a child. He will need a couple of years of training by someone experienced before he becomes suitable for your daughter.
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^^ This ^^

I'm glad things have improved but with this type of horse, you will probably find you need to do the groundwork regularly to remind him of his manners and place. Don't stop just because he seems to have stopped the behaviour as IMHO that will allow it to creep back in. Also make sure your daughter continues to have training in how to handle him.

Also, I would find a good rider to come and school/ride him regularly. At that age, he needs to be learning the correct way of going which I doubt (sorry if this sounds mean, I'm not trying to be) your 14yo daughter can provide all of. Can you find a decent instructor to come out and school him a couple of times per week? For the forseeable future... If it helps, I have a 6yo Connie X. Bought in May, aged 5. Had little formal schooling (hunted in Ireland for 2 years before coming to UK in April). I've had a reasonable amount of experience, ridden for a good few years and he's not my first horse (5th I think..?), I'm brave and will give most things ago. Despite all of this, I hope to keep this horse for many years and I want to ensure he gets the correct education. I can do a lot of it myself but at the same time, I'm paying my YO and her groom to school him once a week for me. This irons out any problems plus ensures I'm teaching the pony all the right things. I also have lessons with my YO so she can teach me, what she is teaching the pony. So never underestimate the value of regular training for the horse and rider.
 
Op by bolting what do you mean? @ 4 he is going to consistently push boundaries for quite some time, its part of the course with a youngster. Is your daughter still riding the horse at all!
Putting sensible parent hat on now - what is the goal for your daughter to do with the horse?
Do you trust the horse to hack out nicely?
Do you trust the hourse to behave well enough on the ground with your daughter?
Do you think that there is the possibility of your daughter losing confidence riding with all that comes with riding a youngster?

I'm sorry to be negative as you really seem like a super parent
 
Well done to you all, bet your over the moon with him. We bought our 12 year old daughter a rising 5 year old connemara 2 years ago and they now have an amazing bond so it can be done if you put the time and effort in which it sounds like you are :-)
 
@showpony

Many thanks

Yes, I am happy that he hacks out well. He isn't easily spooked which is obviously a huge bonus. The main problem with him wasn't his behaviour so much as our lack of confidence. He was always far better behaved when saddled. It was when he was being moved anywhere (with us on the ground) that he became an issue as well as a complete lack of manners.

By bolting , I mean she brought him through a gate and he decided he was going to clear off at a canter ! After a little effort he will now stand and wait to be invited through the gate. If he takes one step forward he backed up one step until he is invited.

I don't see my daughter falling out of love with horses or horse riding. What I do think is that as she struggled to control him , she struggled to form a bond.I can already see glimmers of encouragement from her in this direction. I certainly won't force the issue, but I can actually see some small signs of progress now.

The horse was purchased for hacking and maybe a local show or two during the summer. Nothing at all high brow, just some local low level stuff.

@bobby boy

Totally agree. I have told my wife and daughter not to be surprised if he tries to rebel against the discipline we are now imparting, but the effort will be worth it in the long run.
 
Ah ... the good old dually!

If you're daughter is interested in using a dually halter and following Monty Robert's methods then she can join his equine uni online ... costs about £8 a month and there are brilliant lessons to follow if you are new to this way of working with horses.

Not everyone likes Monty Roberts ... but I have had great success with his lessons and processes.

xx
 
Yes , it was a Dually, very kindly lent to us by the YO.

I don't want this thread to descend into a Dually Vs Be Nice Vs Parelli etc, but after an ridiculous amount of research I thought the Dually was more suited to our particular horse. I don't always use it, as I want him to behave in a normal halter and don't want to be totally reliant on the Dually (or any other training aid)

I am aware of Monty's and Pat Parelli's merchandise and training scheme's , and to be honest they may be something we consider in the future. But in the next couple of years if we can end up with a reasonably well mannered horse that can be safely hacked and showed (in hand) at a local show we'd definitely settle for that at the moment :)
 
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BoxCleva said:
The main problem with him wasn't his behaviour so much as our lack of confidence. He was always far better behaved when saddled. It was when he was being moved anywhere (with us on the ground) that he became an issue as well as a complete lack of manners.
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I had this with a previous horse who became an aggressive nightmare very quickly. It might be worth getting a Kelly Marks RA (Recommended Associate - find a list on her website) out to do a few sessions with your daughter and the horse on the ground. I got one out to help me with said horse and the difference in him was magical. But it all boiled down to me not handling him properly. They're not cheap but worth it in the long run. Plus I've found that if you have a clever one, they get bored of the same exercises v quickly so a good RA can give them more stuff to do which challenges them both :)

ETS - I read your response above about not always using the Dually. For now, I would *always* use it. Don't give the horse a chance to misbehave and give yourselves the best chance of controlling him on the ground. You will be able to get him out of it in time. The horse I mention above needed the Dually for a few months (he was bargy, rude, aggressive, would knock you over, bit people...) and within a few months you could lead him off just a piece of string! I stopped using it altogether after a while but it's worth sticking with it all of the time until the new "good" behaviour is ingrained.
 
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Our local RA is about to go on maternity leave and the next nearest one is sooooooo far away that it wouldn't be viable.

The YO has been on several Dually courses / demos etc and I am happy to take her advice in the meantime :)

Good point re - the Dually.

thanks :)
 
Hi i had to comment as I have a welshie myself! I am a first time owner too and I didn't realise how difficult they can be!

My mare started pushing the boundaries a couple of weeks after she arrived. I just had to be firm with her and make her stand/back up when ever she barged or tried to run off when being led. She is sooo stubborn but a very quick learner by repetition. I have had a lot of challenges with her over the last few months but I now can see a lovely horse appearing and we are bonding well!

Also, as far as feed goes, my mare does not need anything other than her grazing time (8 hours) and a good amount of hay when stabled at night. And she is on the big side for sure! When some one at my yard started feeding her a large amount of carrots a few weeks ago her behaviour changed again, she was terrible and bolting when being ridden too! Now the carrots have been left out she has calmed back down!

Hope it all turns out well!
 
Glad you have got some help there OP. There will be quite a few people around who do this sort of thing, some will be riding instructors who also do lunging and groundwork lessons. All that stuff is good for working on respect.

If the dually works for you then that is great, its all based on pressure and release which a lot of basic horse training is anyway. I'm sure you know these natural horsemanship schemes can get a bit money orientated but you can take it a few steps at a time and see what you find useful. Whatever you do it will build your confidence and you will start to feel more capable of dealing with a horse who is being a horror, whatever it is they are doing!

If he is tanking off in hand then I would keep leading him in the dually if you know how to use it, or a bridle, just something that will give you a bit more control as every time he gets away with these things he will think he can do it again.

If he still does all that acting up when going to be ridden in the school then an instructor will show your daughter how to deal with it. She is young but its not like she is 8 years old so as long as she is confident and willing to be firm and consistent I think she will get on ok.
 
I agree, she is not an 8 year old. At 14 I was riding an awfull pony! Learned more on him than any other. I had more confidence back then, wasn't scared of falling of as much. now I think of bones breaking and wonder who will take care of the kids! Hahaha!
 
It looks like this horse is teaching you a lot too and you appear to be winning :) in years to come your daughter will look back to her first horse and say how much she learnt from his challenging behaviour. Well done both:)
 
Just bear in mind that every time you handle the horse, you are training it. Also remember that the "boss horse" always makes the other horses move their feet. So you have to be boss horse and make your pony move HIS feet.

Good luck. At 14 your daughter is old enough to learn lots and be very keen and determined and he will teach her a lot!
 
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