martlin
Well-Known Member
It's the train weight we are talking about here, so your big Jeep's gross weight comes into equation...
New trailer law
- Thread starter perfect11s
- Start date
It's the train weight we are talking about here, so your big Jeep's gross weight comes into equation...
joyrider
Well-Known Member
This new law seems as clear as mud however I found an interesting forum (disco3.co.uk) http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic70499-105.html which when you get to pages 7,8 & 9 would seem to say if you are towing with a dual purpose vehicle (which seems to include most 4x4's able to take passengers) then you are exempt from needing an operator's licence?!?!? What's that saying 'the law is an ass'!
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
That's the EU for you !!! they can make petty rules that have a major impact on small bussiness but wont change the law on live transport that the animal welfare people are asking for to save poor creatures a horiffic last ride... sorry The EUSSR is... oh best not say !!!!!
SpruceRI
Well-Known Member
It's the combined weight of the car and trailer isn't it? In which case a lot of people may be affected.
I was just wondering where I'd stand towing a small box trailer with a Fourtrak, taking away peoples' garden waste..... I'd just looked up the Fourtrak weight - approx 2 ton. The trailer probably weighs 250-400kg so think I'm well within requirements NOT to have to go down this route.... which I wouldn't do. People would have to transport their own waste.
Alec Swan
...
I've just looked up the weight unladen of an Ifor Williams 510 trailer, which is roomy enough to carry 2 horses which are 17.2. It isn't 250-400 kgs, but 1000 kgs!!
If your towing vehicle weighs, as you suggest, 2000 kgs, then within the permitted 3500 kgs gross weight, that allows a pay load of only 500 kgs, which wouldn't cover one large horse, let alone 2!!
I keep sheep, and I have a 14' livestock trailer. If I'm to put 50 x 70 kg ewes in this trailer, then there's the 3500 kg legal limit taken up by the load, without the added weight of the vehicle and trailer. Well maintained and effective trailer breaking is vital.
I suspect that most fully loaded car/horse or livestock combos actually travel overweight, and therefore, illegally, as would many of the smaller horse boxes, those made on non commercial chassis, Equitrek for instance, when they're loaded with 2 x 16.2 horses.
There are some French made horse trailers, available for sale in this country, which are twice the size of the I/W trailers, so just how they operate, within the law, is beyond me!!
Alec.
Kat
Well-Known Member
It is a show stand that we transport, for local shows where we don't need overnight gear and lots of spare stock we can manage with just a big vehicle and possibly a roof rack but for overnighters we need more space, but only a couple of times a year. A big vehicle plus a decent sized trailer is going to go over 3.5t pretty easily. If we would need an operators licence to use the horse trailer we would be better off hiring a big van or using two vehicles.
Luci07
Well-Known Member
Ah b**ger! I will delve now but interesting that this is the law around weight and not towing capacity - this will lead others (like me) down the wrong route as the normal splits are 3.5 or up to 7.5. I know there isn't a clear legal requirement but a guideline. Off to investigate and no doubt will be back to see who can interpret ,!
ROG
Well-Known Member
I think you are going on ACTUAL weights and the law on O licencing refers to plated weights ....doesn't it?
Luci07
Well-Known Member
It doesn't apply to private individuals but those using for hire or reward - but good luck on working out where the restrictions apply. Either way and regardless of your thoughts this looks like a very hard law to understand and apply! What a waste of time
joyrider
Well-Known Member
Re my post further up, I have copied one of the replys from the Disco 3 forum which is quite interesting
Member Since: 21 Mar 2008
Location: Hove
Posts: 98
I have received this from Ifor Williams in response to my query to them.
This appears to cover much of the ground already posted but does make specific mention of Landrovers.
Again only VOSA's opinion not legally binding.
Dear Andy
I refer to your recent e – mail addressed to Gordon MacDonald , concerning
the above. Gordon has passed your query to me for reply.
I have outlined below, an extract from the forthcoming update of our
booklet "Goods Vehicle Operator Licensing A Guide for Operators" (GV
74) on
this: -
"...A trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020kg need not be
taken into account in the weight calculation for a vehicle pulling a
trailer. It therefore can be ignored for the purposes of adding up
total gross weights or unladen weights to determine whether they are
above the threshold for requiring an operator’s licence.
However, this exemption does not apply if you are carrying other
people’s goods for hire or reward (e.g. working as a courier or
freight transport business). In such circumstances, the weight
calculation must include any trailer attached (irrespective of the
trailer’s weight). In this case, if the vehicle and trailer
combination exceeds the weight limits stated above for a single
vehicle, a standard licence is required".
Therefore, for many operator's of small trailers, the situation will
remain unchanged - as the users of these combinations will be
unaffected, as they will be carrying their own goods. However, where a
3.5 tonne van/trailer combination is used and it is clear that the
carriage of goods is for payment (a removals company perhaps?) then an
operator's licence will be required - even where the trailer has an
unladen weight of less than 1020 kgs.
Note: Under Schedule 3 (2) of the goods Vehicles (Licensing of
Operators) Regulations 1995 "a dual purpose vehicle and any trailer
drawn by it" is identified as exempt from goods vehicle operator
licensing. Examples are Range Rovers, Land Rovers, Jeeps, certain
Japanese vehicles and those designed to go over rough ground as well
as on roads. Therefore, (under existing legislation) where a 4x4 is
used, the combination will be exempt from operator licensing - even when carriage is for hire or reward.
I should point out that this is in VOSA’s view and does not constitute
legal opinion
I hope that the information given above has helped clarify the current
position. If you have any further queries, do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Chris Slowley
Operator Licensing
Strategy and Customer Directorate
VOSA
Member Since: 21 Mar 2008
Location: Hove
Posts: 98
I have received this from Ifor Williams in response to my query to them.
This appears to cover much of the ground already posted but does make specific mention of Landrovers.
Again only VOSA's opinion not legally binding.
Dear Andy
I refer to your recent e – mail addressed to Gordon MacDonald , concerning
the above. Gordon has passed your query to me for reply.
I have outlined below, an extract from the forthcoming update of our
booklet "Goods Vehicle Operator Licensing A Guide for Operators" (GV
74) on
this: -
"...A trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020kg need not be
taken into account in the weight calculation for a vehicle pulling a
trailer. It therefore can be ignored for the purposes of adding up
total gross weights or unladen weights to determine whether they are
above the threshold for requiring an operator’s licence.
However, this exemption does not apply if you are carrying other
people’s goods for hire or reward (e.g. working as a courier or
freight transport business). In such circumstances, the weight
calculation must include any trailer attached (irrespective of the
trailer’s weight). In this case, if the vehicle and trailer
combination exceeds the weight limits stated above for a single
vehicle, a standard licence is required".
Therefore, for many operator's of small trailers, the situation will
remain unchanged - as the users of these combinations will be
unaffected, as they will be carrying their own goods. However, where a
3.5 tonne van/trailer combination is used and it is clear that the
carriage of goods is for payment (a removals company perhaps?) then an
operator's licence will be required - even where the trailer has an
unladen weight of less than 1020 kgs.
Note: Under Schedule 3 (2) of the goods Vehicles (Licensing of
Operators) Regulations 1995 "a dual purpose vehicle and any trailer
drawn by it" is identified as exempt from goods vehicle operator
licensing. Examples are Range Rovers, Land Rovers, Jeeps, certain
Japanese vehicles and those designed to go over rough ground as well
as on roads. Therefore, (under existing legislation) where a 4x4 is
used, the combination will be exempt from operator licensing - even when carriage is for hire or reward.
I should point out that this is in VOSA’s view and does not constitute
legal opinion
I hope that the information given above has helped clarify the current
position. If you have any further queries, do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Chris Slowley
Operator Licensing
Strategy and Customer Directorate
VOSA
Luci07
Well-Known Member
And while I am happy my jeep is exempt - not sure I understand the rational!
Kat
Well-Known Member
Very helpful thanks, it only applies if you are carrying other peoples goods for hire or reward, not if you are carrying goods in the course of a business. So transporting items which you plan to sell will not be covered - phew!
Alec Swan
...
joyrider,
thank you for the VOSA quote. I thought that I had the ruling clear in my own mind, but obviously not!! I'm also a little surprised to read that VOSA are only able to offer an opinion, rather than a clear explanation, as they are the authority who will determine road legal requirements, and would be the prosecuting body, in the event of transgression.
Specifically, I don't understand Para 3.
"...A trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020kg need not be
taken into account in the weight calculation for a vehicle pulling a
trailer. It therefore can be ignored for the purposes of adding up
total gross weights or unladen weights to determine whether they are
above the threshold for requiring an operators licence.
I've always understood that Gross Weight, meant just that, being the total weight of a vehicle, trailer, and the contents, when put over a weigh bridge. Or is it that this only applies when the question of an Operators Licence is under consideration?
I suppose that I could ask Ifor Williams, or VOSA, for that matter, but if you have a clear understanding of the law, could you clarify it for me?
Alec.
thank you for the VOSA quote. I thought that I had the ruling clear in my own mind, but obviously not!! I'm also a little surprised to read that VOSA are only able to offer an opinion, rather than a clear explanation, as they are the authority who will determine road legal requirements, and would be the prosecuting body, in the event of transgression.
Specifically, I don't understand Para 3.
"...A trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020kg need not be
taken into account in the weight calculation for a vehicle pulling a
trailer. It therefore can be ignored for the purposes of adding up
total gross weights or unladen weights to determine whether they are
above the threshold for requiring an operators licence.
I've always understood that Gross Weight, meant just that, being the total weight of a vehicle, trailer, and the contents, when put over a weigh bridge. Or is it that this only applies when the question of an Operators Licence is under consideration?
I suppose that I could ask Ifor Williams, or VOSA, for that matter, but if you have a clear understanding of the law, could you clarify it for me?
Alec.
joyrider
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, like the rest of us I am finding it as clear as mud so did a bit of searching which is when I came across the disco forum that the above quote was taken from and thought it would be worth sharing - sorry if I've made it worse!
cowchaser
New User
How many people have weighed their vehicle and trailer. Suggest anyone worried goes along to their local public weighbridge and gets their vehicle weighed (loaded) before they start to panic.
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
I think the only people who need worry at the are the ones with a big van and trailer used for light haulage ie removal people and the guy who tranports goods for a living,, seems 4x4s are outside the scope of this at the moment, but it might affect a livestock transporter who has say a transit with a cattle box on that tows a livestock trailer....
Vixxy
Well-Known Member
Got this via email today:
As from the 4th December ANY vehicle towing a trailer for hire or reward (a driver in 1999 was convicted after admitted his mate bought him a pint!!!) so a gardener, tree surgeon, builder, motor sales etc who's combined weight exceeds 3,500kgs (laden or un-laden) will need a **HEAVY GOODS VEHICLE OPERATORS LICENCE** along with the numerous rules that go with it:
Off road parking
6wk maintenance check by a VAT reg garage.
Have an International CPC (certificate of professional competence) (operator not driver cpc)
Be or nominate a transport manager with an International CPC (or pay somebody who has one!)
Have instantly available at all times, 9,000 euro's 24/7 which is checkable by the Traffic Commissioner.
Apply every 12mth for a new licence (was 5yr)
Plus many more.
Can you afford these new changes as well as rising fuel costs so therefore as of the 4th Dec many will be out of their job or closing a business
What happens to those thousands of other drivers who are unaware of the changes, the max fine is £5k
This apparently is to bring us in line with the rest of the EU!!
Don't panic chaps I have an International CPC, I will be your Transport Manager for a not so small fee. Always glad to help
EmmasMummy
Well-Known Member
So if my neighbours took my pony to a show and I paid them, but they are towing in a jeep then they are exempt - correct?
And if you are a tree surgeon that has say, and L200 truck - with 4 person seating and tow a trailer you are also exempt as the vehicle is a 'dual purpose' vehicle.