New trainer in action.....

Armas

Armas

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After brown boots came up from Spain I needed to find some one more local and permanent to help us both.
I have enlisted the help of a very competent & competitive dressage rider. We are still getting used to her and Armas is trying some of his old tricks to evade by going behind the vertical. However he is starting to learn that he can not escape the contact by curling his head under.
Our plan is to work on better engagement and getting him to push more from his back end and to start to stretch his head down and build more top line and back muscle. This is something that I have not been able to do on my own.
This week we have been working on lots of transitions and paces next week we will start to introduce some lateral work which should help with engagement.

[youtube]el7atlUJUgw[/youtube]
 
Dislike to be fair and I have no agenda here. I am sure someone far more experienced will be along with their opinion, but I have no idea why the speed - undesirable, why she doesn't know her diagonals, and why she allows him to rush like that... She braces against him in the canter and since when does your very forward horse need to be ridden in spurs?
 
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Agree ref the speed, I don't understand the need for it. You could see it pushed him into canter a couple if times.
Was there a reason she wanted him so fast?
 
I have followed Armas's progress with interest and enjoyed seeing the updates on his progress with 'brown boots'. And he did indeed make fantastic progress.

Now I can see him going back to square one :(
 
Billie1007 said:
Dislike to be fair and I have no agenda here. I am sure someone far more experienced will be along with their opinion, but I have no idea why the speed - undesirable, why she doesn't know her diagonals, and why she allows him to rush like that... She braces against him in the canter and since when does your very forward horse need to be ridden in spurs?
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She was working various trot passes slow medium quick etc. She wants him to listen and move at the pace she dictates not what he decides. The faster trot is getting him to work at the limit and push from behind.
I never thought you had an any agenda.
 
I didn't understand what she was doing either.

Her hands weren't very light. I know you say Armas goes behind the vertical as an evasion, but I couldn't see her giving him any opportunities to be correct. She looked heavy and bracey in her contact. And the more she drove him forward, the more on his forehand and "rollkurey" he looked.
 
Armas, I'm just genuinely confused how you could look at this and think that this was a good thing? This isn't first session blues, she's not great and I wouldn't be paying her to ride my horse.
 
Armas said:
She was working various trot passes slow medium quick etc. She wants him to listen and move at the pace she dictates not what he decides. The faster trot is getting him to work at the limit and push from behind.
I never thought you had an any agenda.
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I just said that I had no agenda because I know that this has been controversial in the past and so I didn't want you to think that I was coming at this with 'old eyes'. Whether she has told you that she is working at various trot paces or not it isn't helpful in assisting him to find and accept a contact. I'd say she's a complete bull shi**er by the sounds of it. I certainly don't think she knows anything about classical riding either! Which I believe you were looking for?
 
I did not jump in to choosing this trainer with out taking advice. In fact I enlisted the help of a couple of H&H to help me as I had been to see a couple of trainers.
The rider competes at a high level and trains under Adelinde Cornelissen on a monthly basis. So I am sure she knows her stuff.
However I have an open mind and will give her time with us.
 
Billie1007 said:
I just said that I had no agenda because I know that this has been controversial in the past and so I didn't want you to think that I was coming at this with 'old eyes'. Whether she has told you that she is working at various trot paces or not it isn't helpful in assisting him to find and accept a contact. I'd say she's a complete bull shi**er by the sounds of it. I certainly don't think she knows anything about classical riding either! Which I believe you were looking for?
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There are reasons to ride a horse at different paces within the gait and do transitions between those paces. If done right, it helps the horse with longitudinal flexibility and general lightness to the aids, it helps increase strength behind and can help a horse step through with his hindquarters, and can "spice" up a lazy horse or steady a nervous, quick one. But I would not push a horse so hard it's falling on its face and running, and if I had one sucking behind the vertical as much as I see Armas doing in that video, I'd wonder what the hell I was doing with my contact.
 
Horribly rushed...there is a huge difference between quick pace and rushing. Her hands are shocking and it doesn't look like he is evading more beig ridden ignorantly on hyperflexion and she doesn't realise she is doing it. I also think he doesn't look sound behind but I know this has been said before and ignored but I feel this has more to do with why he won't work behind than anything though that ridiculous rushed pace is certainly not helping him work from behind either. If you want to work on engagement I suggest you start by engaging a better jockey.
 
Caol Ila said:
There are reasons to ride a horse at different paces within the gait and do transitions between those paces. If done right, it helps the horse with longitudinal flexibility and general lightness to the aids, it helps increase strength behind and can help a horse step through with his hindquarters, and can "spice" up a lazy horse or steady a nervous, quick one. But I would not push a horse so hard it's falling on its face and running, and if I had one sucking behind the vertical as much as I see Armas doing in that video, I'd wonder what the hell I was doing with my contact.
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No, no, of course I understand that you would ride at different paces within a gait, but I didn't see her doing this well, to good effect or in a way that sought to teach him anything. Hence her explanation to Armas sounding like BS :p
 
I love your horse, and I have watched your videos in the past and never commented, but I really want to comment here. Your horse is seriously overbent and rushing out of his stride. I don't see how rushing him out of his stride is going to engage the hindquarters. I don't know much about the higher levels of dressage, but I know what I like to watch and I didn't like what I saw here at all. In fact it's up there with those videos of top dressage riders doing Rollkur. A classical trainer would never ever ride like this person is doing. Sorry :(
 
Armas said:
I did not jump in to choosing this trainer with out taking advice. In fact I enlisted the help of a couple of H&H to help me as I had been to see a couple of trainers.
The rider competes at a high level and trains under Adelinde Cornelissen on a monthly basis. So I am sure she knows her stuff.
However I have an open mind and will give her time with us.
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Ok. That's fine, your choice. I can't work out if this is idiocy, blindness or arrogance that makes you select these people and fail to look at what is in front of you.

I livery with, and am having lessons with again, a GP rider. Doesn't mean I am a great rider, it means I am learning. Looks like she has a lot to learn and I wouldn't be paying her to ride my horse.
 
Billie1007 said:
No, no, of course I understand that you would ride at different paces within a gait, but I didn't see her doing this well, to good effect or in a way that sought to teach him anything. Hence her explanation to Armas sounding like BS :p
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Her explanation isn't wrong. Those are reasons to practice changing pace within the gait. It's just the application thereof in this case that leaves much to be desired, IMO.
 
" In fact it's up there with those videos of top dressage riders doing Rollkur. "

"The rider competes at a high level and trains under Adelinde Cornelissen on a monthly basis."

Raise your hand if you saw Parcival's test at the Olympics. Just sayin'.
 
Caol Ila said:
Her explanation isn't wrong. Those are reasons to practice changing pace within the gait. It's just the application thereof in this case that leaves much to be desired, IMO.
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I'm presuming that she told Armas that the outcome was exactly what she wanted as he seems satisfied with her explanation with what is happening. If my rider told me that she was trying to push my horse to different speeds in all three gaits and that is what I saw as the outcome then I would ask her to find a level of control and balance before she continues :o
 
amage said:
Horribly rushed...there is a huge difference between quick pace and rushing. Her hands are shocking and it doesn't look like he is evading more beig ridden ignorantly on hyperflexion and she doesn't realise she is doing it. I also think he doesn't look sound behind but I know this has been said before and ignored but I feel this has more to do with why he won't work behind than anything though that ridiculous rushed pace is certainly not helping him work from behind either. If you want to work on engagement I suggest you start by engaging a better jockey.
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It may look like he is being ridden ignorantly but I can assure you thats not the case. When he moves behind the vertical she is maintaining contact so that he can not avoid it. Towards the end yo can see he is becoming more expectant.
Your statement about his hind movement being ignored is just in correct. In fact a few months ago he was treated with cortisone injections in to his SI and has been pronounced fine by the vet.
Thus all the work at the moment is to aid engagement.
 
Armas said:
The rider competes at a high level and trains under Adelinde Cornelissen on a monthly basis.
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Aaah yes, that will be the same Adelinde Cornelissen who was one of the 'stars' of the rollkur furore during the Olympics....

Can't say I'd want anyone who trains with her anywhere near a horse of mine, and it certainly goes completely against the classical methods you were leaning towards.
Poor Armas, he's going to be so confused..
 
Ahem; you know what I think, but now knowing that the trainer is studying with Adelinde Cornielson explains quite a lot. This technique may make sense with the big, elastic modern warmbloods that most competition riders are riding nowadays (make that ALL competition riders), but it is not the way to find the keys to an Iberian horse which tend to move with a less active back. Your horse will never find his balance this way, he'll just get more and more rushed and frantic and not be able to balance. If you want him to look like Ms Cornielson's horses (and I can't stand the sight of them myself) then you'll have to get him a warmblood transfusion.
 
If a horse is 'ducking behind the contact' you would expect to see some slack in the reins. I don't see that in the video.
If he genuinely does come behind then pushing the pace to that extent isn't going to help as he won't be able to balance enough to seek the contact forward.
 
I don't know if it was just me or whether it's because i'm tired and can't focus properly but that video made for disturbing viewing, Armas didn't look comfortable to me :o
 
Armas looks very healthy

I absolutely don't know enough to comment on this lady's riding but didn't everyone jump on the video of mr brown boots when he started riding Armas? Perhaps the next session when the horse isn't new to her may be better?
 
Billie1007 said:
Ok. That's fine, your choice. I can't work out if this is idiocy, blindness or arrogance that makes you select these people and fail to look at what is in front of you.

I livery with, and am having lessons with again, a GP rider. Doesn't mean I am a great rider, it means I am learning. Looks like she has a lot to learn and I wouldn't be paying her to ride my horse.
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Thats just rude, I chose this trainer with the help of an extremely competent and well respected H&H member upon that advice I chose this trainer. No blindness or arrogance. I shall see how we progress over the next few weeks as its early days.

LittleBlackMule said:
Aaah yes, that will be the same Adelinde Cornelissen who was one of the 'stars' of the rollkur furore during the Olympics....

Can't say I'd want anyone who trains with her anywhere near a horse of mine, and it certainly goes completely against the classical methods you were leaning towards.
Poor Armas, he's going to be so confused..
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I am not a big fan of Adelinde Cornelissen, and I broached this question of certain practises of her tutor I was not keen on. Her answer left me reassured that she takes the parts from her training that best suites her.
 
she sits very nicely and has great poise and control of her hands etc BUT she is rushing the horse well above his rhythm in all the trot work (cardinal sin, accomplishes nothing positive really) and seems to have a fixation (quite literally) with him being behind the vertical. The whole thing needs to be much softer and slower, to give him time to take the bigger step, not running/rushing onto forehand, imho.
 
Armas said:
Thats just rude, I chose this trainer with the help of an extremely competent and well respected H&H member upon that advice I chose this trainer. No blindness or arrogance. I shall see how we progress over the next few weeks as its early days.



I am not a big fan of Adelinde Cornelissen, and I broached this question of certain practises of her tutor I was not keen on. Her answer left me reassured that she takes the parts from her training that best suites her.
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Really? Because you seemed to see it as a real plus point earlier and were using it as an argument for having this rider involved.....

I wonder if the well respected HHo'er would endorse the rider now they have seen her ride? Just saying! and they may well be willing to, i am sure that person has far more experience than I do.

Look I CLEARLY don't know everything. Heck for the last 6 months I've been far too fat to ride my own bloody horse BUT - I see what I see.
 
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I know nothing about stressage but was expecting to see him being worked 'long and low' and with a very giving hand, she looks like she does give the reins at just one or two moments and he responded by coming up from behind vertical. Follow your gut, watch the video back as if you had never heard of her as a rider, hope it all works out for you.

PS he looks in lovely condition, gorgeous chap....
 
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