Newly backed horse - zero energy

[Horses24-7]

Will try to keep it short -
4 year old cob x - has gone away to be backed and ridden away and been very backward thinking through the whole thing- just shuts off and non responsive to being driven forward on long lines etc . Would go but just trickled along.

They then tried keeping him stabled (was out at night) and energy picked up and he’s now backed and been happily going forward in walk trot and canter for a week - tried him back out yesterday grazing and today back to sloth mode! He’s in a small paddock happily mooching around not even seen to break out of walk so he’s not stressed running around or anything like that.

confident he’s sound but booked physio in for the once over and thinking possibly vets for bloods etc but was wondering if anyone had any advice/similar experiences?

he’s on a high energy mix and balancer so feed wise I think he’s pretty covered nutritionally but I can’t just keep him stabled all the time!! (although my winter grazing might be better for it )

Appreciate any thoughts? Advice?


Many thanks

 

[ycbm]

Screams of PSSM to me, having had one at that age. They can react very badly to the sugar in grass.
.

 

[Horses24-7]

Screams of PSSM to me, having had one at that age. They can react very badly to the sugar in grass.
.

thank you I’ve not actually had any experience with this condition- had a Google and yes agree sounds a possible cause! Can I ask if you managed to get it under control?

 

[planete]

I have a pony who presented much the same. Supplementation with natural vitamin E and avoidance of starchy/sugary feeds has been the solution for him. Worth trying a radical diet change before doing anything else. A high energy mix may well be high in starches and sugar.

 

[Red-1]

My ears pricked up at the mention of cob. Is he fat? Could it be subclinical lami?

That can hang round for ages and as it is bilateral the horse may trot up 'sound'.

 

[ycbm]

thank you I’ve not actually had any experience with this condition- had a Google and yes agree sounds a possible cause! Can I ask if you managed to get it under control?

Assuming that you can rule out laminitis, which is another possibility as Red has mentioned, I was lucky in that mine was easily managed with vitamin E and alcar. I've been told many times that PSSM 2 (he tested negative for type 1) doesn't respond to alcar, but mine did unmistakably. A low sugar diet, but unlike yours he was OK on rough grass.

There is a hair test for type1 you can get from Animal Genetics, which isn't expensive. I think that would be worth doing. There is a genetic test available for type 2, much more expensive, but the scientists are not agreed on how useful this test is as many horses with no symptoms whatsoever will get positive to it and it hasn't yet passed a peer review.

The vitamin E has to be natural, or double the dose of synthetic. Many horses like yours respond well to just that. The high energy mix is probably the last thing he needs as a feed.

Mine was just like yours, very backward when backed for me by the seller. When I got him home I tried to get him to go forward and he put me into orbit. It wasn't his nature so I knew something was wrong and as he was a quarter horse cross it was an obvious route to explore and it changed him completely to change his diet.
.

 

[Dexter]

Mine responded very well to being maintained properly. Grazed on rough grazing, fed very low sugar, natural vitamin e, magneisum and salt, and lots and lots of work. I had to keep them warm, well rugged and exercise sheets in winter etc. Worked every single day, twice a day if you can manage it.

Type 1 is relatively easy to manage and very common in cobs, Type 2 is something I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy, and luckily isnt as common.

 

[ycbm]

Type 1 is relatively easy to manage and very common in cobs, Type 2 is something I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy, and luckily isnt as common

I can't agree with you there, sorry. Type 2 is much harder to get a definitive diagnosis on and it's my belief that there are many type 2 horses that are reasonably easy to manage and have either no diagnosis at all or no confirmed diagnosis.

I've never met a type 1, but I've owned 1, probably 2, and know a dozen others that are/were probably type 2.
.

 

[Dexter]

I can't agree with you there, sorry. Type 2 is much harder to get a definitive diagnosis on and it's my belief that there are many type 2 horses that are reasonably easy to manage and have either no diagnosis at all or no confirmed diagnosis.

I've never met a type 1, but I've owned 1, probably 2, and know a dozen others that are/were probably type 2.
.

The problem is your belief isnt matched by the reality. Guessing that something may be type 2 and then saying its fine and not an issue isnt really helpful. Of all the diagnosed horses that I know of, either by dna test or muscle biopsy, the majority have been PTS or retired, only one is in work, but its not really working out and the owner is looking to retire her.

 

[ycbm]

The problem is your belief isnt matched by the reality.

How do you know that? There is no good science at the moment behind counting PSSM 2 numbers, you can't possibly support that assertion.

Guessing that something may be type 2 and then saying its fine and not an issue isnt really helpful. Of all the diagnosed horses that I know of, either by dna test or muscle biopsy, the majority have been PTS or retired, only one is in work, but its not really working out and the owner is looking to retire her.

It's not "guessing", it's a judgement made by vets and owners after seeing the results of changing the management to one which suits a horse which has PSSM.

You don't know how many undiagnosed PSSM 2 horses are out there trundling along happily enough at the lower end of the spectrum of disability. You are guessing that there are few or none, which is not a logical position to take about a disease which presents on a spectrum from not noticeably affected at all to PTS the only option.

PSSM isn't a new disease. Hundreds of years ago, when horses were machines worked hard all week and rested on a Sunday, this was called "Monday Morning Disease".
.

 

[sbloom]

I shared this today, from someone I respect massively and who would be abreast of all the facts: https://www.facebook.com/permalink....j7g9SNGSgZTMuhagckn8k5VYyl&id=100057082075791

 

[catembi]

Thank you very much for the link, Sbloom.

FWIW, I have had 6 x PSSM type 2s diagnosed by the controversial hair test, and two were +ve for type 1 as well. 5 are retired; 3 I still own, one of those who is p2/p3/px is just about in work but only walk. Instead of competing BD/BS, we are finding new venues to box to and hacking out in walk or doing low level schooling in walk. I am researching new things to try all the time but in my heart I have shelved all hope of ambition until the mortgage is paid off in 4 years’ time and I can buy something else.

 

[SEL]

Screamed PSSM to me as well (like Catembi PSSM is annoyingly my life in horses)

For a cob I'd test for type 1 as a starter because it's cheap, doesn't need a vet and is a validated genetic test. Animal Genetics.

Get him off the grass or onto massively reduced grass and you'll cover your lami risk too. Low sugar feed (mine get combinations of grass nuts, chaff, beet) with a decent balancer. Make sure your hay isn't full of sugar. Natural vitamin E (forage plus, progressive earth) but I'd also try and find out if you're in a low selenium area and supplement if you are. None of that will cause any issues if PSSM isn't the problem.

If he's responding to being off the grass then I'd continue with that routine until you've ruled PSSM & lami out. The grass has gone bonkers in the past 2 weeks which won't help.

 

[ycbm]

I shared this today, from someone I respect massively and who would be abreast of all the facts: https://www.facebook.com/permalink....j7g9SNGSgZTMuhagckn8k5VYyl&id=100057082075791

That's a very interesting article. But it's still talking about people reporting problems and those problems resulting in the horses being tested. Until we reach the situation where there is mass testing of non-symptomatic horses (and why would you do that test on a happy, healthy horse, as an owner?) we can't move on from the argument "PSSM 2 is a progressive disease that ALWAYS causes serious problems"/"oh no it isnt"/"oh yes it is".
.

 

[SEL]

I shared this today, from someone I respect massively and who would be abreast of all the facts: https://www.facebook.com/permalink....j7g9SNGSgZTMuhagckn8k5VYyl&id=100057082075791

Yes..... And no.

For older horses if the diseases that Equiseq say they are finding are accurate then you will see "something" on biopsy. For me that is my biggest frustration with them. There are plenty of horses diagnosed who are being euthanised where they could reach out to a vet college and proactively work with them to take muscle samples. Not all owners would want this understandably but there are many who would like their horses to help those of the future.

K1 and P8 in humans are catastrophic - but I know horses working well with that diagnosis. They can also be diagnosed by biopsy.

 

[SEL]

That's a very interesting article. But until we reach the situation where there is mass testing of non-symptomatic horses (and why would you do that test on a happy, healthy horse, as an owner?) we can't move on from the argument "PSSM 2 is a progressive disease that ALWAYS causes serious problems"/"oh no it isnt"/"oh yes it is".
.

And Dorothy who wrote the article is just an owner trying her best like everyone else. She's not a scientist. Tbh Equiseq need to get off their backsides now and robustly test and challenge their DNA findings - but I think the $$$ is too lucrative

 

[maya2008]

My pssm 2 mare was manageable as a younger horse, but we eventually lost control of it in her late teens and she had to be pts. She presented as ‘lazy’ at backing, but was able to happily walk, trot and canter (just without a lot of oomph). Correct management fixed that, and her favourite things in the world were galloping and jumping.

I would definitely test for pssm, but I would also do the normal thing - get a good vet out and rule out anything else it could be.

 

[foxy]

Sounds like mine, who has just been diagnosed with EMS. He was willing but so lethargic. I would speak to your vet and get a blood test done so you rule out any issues.
I tried lots of different feeds, mixing up his work so he didn't get bored but nothing worked. I explained it to my vet as "riding with the handbrake on!"
Good luck I know how frustrating it can be.

 

[maya2008]

How’s it going?

 

[Horses24-7]

Thanks for all your thoughts - he’s back home now and seems happy enough being ridden just super lazy! Can drive him forward on the lunge but when on board in the school forward more tricky - send off the pssm1 test and keeping him off the grass fully just until we get the results but I’m thinking he needs some time to get stronger - more of a slow burner shall we say compared to the naturally forward competition types I’ve had in the past. Going to get him hacking and get my physio to check him over - and then maybe a bloody screening to check he’s not deficient in anything?

 

[Afon_34]

Is this just in the school he's like this, what's he's like out hacking? Maybe he's just saying the schoolwork is too hard/ much for him atm? I'd get him out hacking & having with others to see what he's like then