Nibbly youngster (almost hand reared)

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mrbsmum

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I'm fairly sure I'm about to get torn to shreds for this one, as it's really my fault for letting it go on so long, but here we go anyway - I would appreciate the advice, and no doubt deserve the criticism!

I have a four year old minature shetland who is a terrible nipper. I say nipper, because he's not normally a biter, there's no spite in it, everything just goes in his mouth, including you. The excetption to this rule is that he does nip/bite to get attention, or if he is frustrated/over excited. Then he intends it, but again, I don't think he means any malace (no ears back) - he's just never learnt its not appropriate.

My problem is I've had him from a yearling (see, I told you this way my fault), and although we have made progress with this, we've never fixed it
. Partly that is because he doesn't do anything much, and has pretty much been turned away all summer for the last two years. He comes in in winter as his field companion requires stabling, so then we do some work on his manners, but we've yet to make a significant dint in it.

Normally when he nips, I either turn tight circle (if we're leading - the nip is usually because I'm trying to make him walk at a sensible pace), or back him him up a few paces. So far though, this has had little impact.

My main issue is that when I got him he had been weaned and then left in a field by himself for 6 months - he was bored, lonely, and very frustrated, and I was the only company he had, so he regularly tried to 'play' with me. I rectified this as soon as I took him on by getting a companion for him, and that took away some of his bounce, but he is still the most people orientated horse I've ever met - follows you everywhere like a dog, and would sit in your lap if you let him. Unfortunately, he also doesn't speak horse very well any more. One of the things I first noticed when we got his companion was he had no idea how to back down. The older horse would batter him hell for leather when he stepped over the mark, and he just kept coming back for more. Eventually, even the older horse just developed this glazed accepting look while he mauled him and hopped around him like a loon. My friend compared his behaviour with hand reared foals that she had previously known, which I think is a useful comparison for those who haven't met him! Now he lives with another 4 year old (who is thankfully an angel with perfect manners, although he too required some work when he arrived, but for opposite reasons to this one!) and they can play silly games and bounce about to their hearts content.

That's all great for them, but it doesn't solve my problem of being chomped on when I handle him, so I'm sucking it up, accepting my failure thus far, and making it our winter project. This year we are horribly fat, so we need to up our winter walkies anyway, and as he's now 4, it's about time he started getting used to being worked with.

My question is - have any of you ever worked with a hand reared (or nearly so) youngster who lacked boundaries. What methods should I try to instill some respect into him. Do I just keep backing up and turning circles? What about in the field (he likes to hang on to my clothes while I poo pick, change water buckets etc etc - although right now he's in a grazing muzzle, so he can't haha!). Bear in mind he's mini, so some things are trickier (eg the elbow jab trick - he only comes up to my knees!) It also means that sometimes to work with him (particularly grooming, or doing anything with his feet or belly area) I really have to crouch to the ground (not desirable, do not try this at home kids! I just can't work out a way of not doing it, he's so small!) which can make the instant reaction I need to correct him kind of slow.

As well as backing up I have also tried high pitched strange noises (had to give this up as I started to scare his more nervous field companion) leaping into the air (this confuses him, but does not stop him trying again) and always walking with a swinging rope by my side (which keeps him off, but doesn't stop the behaviour when I do want to be near him).

Thoughts, suggestions etc welcomed - just please don't over do the 'why have you let it go on so longs'... I already know... :eek:
 
I have a massive 3 year old homebred WB stallion that has always been quite playful and can nip as a result. It is a very common young stallion trait and while I acknowledged this and similar to yours, it was never malicious in any way, I didn´t want it to progress into anything more .

As I don´t believe in any form of aggression with my horses, I used a trick I learnt when working on a WB stud. You put lemon juice in an empty spray bottle (one of those tiny simple makeup spray bottles) and when handling him on the ground, you keep it in the palm of your hand using an elastic band wrapped in an X shape around the bottle and your middle finger. Whenever he attempts to nip, spray a little bit of the lemon juice around his muzzle area . After a few days, my boy learnt to associate nipping with the sour taste of the lemon juice and he stopped nipping completely. He hasnt needed a reminder yet !

Hope that helps !
 
hands up with another playful 3yo WB stallion lol!

theres no malice in mine either, hes the most gentle loving guy but its a habit that becomes irritating as sin if allowed to continue.....

leading: if you can teach him to walk out of your space, he cant be close enough to nip. so if he barges past you bring him up sharply and then back him up out your space...every single time until he is walking out of the nip zone.

mine rarely actually nips at people but more wants to grab the lead rope etc and if leading and he does he get gets a whack in the chest with the rest of the rope and again backed up to get his attention back on ME not messing around.

in the stable we just push his head away all the time, so he learns not to curl his head round at us. 99.9999% its only mild curiosity and not even the intention to grab clothes, let alone nip but each and every time we calmly straighten his neck away from us so it becomes habit not to turn round and lip at you.

for one so small tie him up when you have to crouch, as it takes away the issue when you simply arent in a position to correct.

for lippy grabbers(rather than true biting) much of it is habit (if mine ever does make contact with teeth he does get an almighty whack).

as far as the poo picking etc goes, again i would just be pushing him away then ignoring him as stallions/colty geldings find the *you hit me i nip you* game great fun and it can escalate! if he doesnt get the hint, tie him up whilst you do it to break the habit.
 
I won't deal with them - it's a hard habit to break and you effectively have a dangerous horse. They may not mean it but that is what they are. I bought a mare who had been spoiled just like you described and ended up getting my wrist broken. I got her out of her rudeness to a degree where she was safe enough to be sold but a horse like this will never be a pleasure to own or be around.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I won't deal with them - it's a hard habit to break and you effectively have a dangerous horse. They may not mean it but that is what they are. I bought a mare who had been spoiled just like you described and ended up getting my wrist broken. I got her out of her rudeness to a degree where she was safe enough to be sold but a horse like this will never be a pleasure to own or be around.
Click to expand...

massive over reaction! the OP horse shows no signs of true aggression, just small instances of not knowing social boundaries! did you read the thread?!

havent you recently had issues with a horse kicking out at you? but you think a lippy mini pony is a danger?!
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
massive over reaction! the OP horse shows no signs of true aggression, just small instances of not knowing social boundaries! did you read the thread?!

havent you recently had issues with a horse kicking out at you? but you think a lippy mini pony is a danger?!
Click to expand...

I agree - crazy response. Short sharp smack would be my response OP but you have to deal with it in a way you are comfortable with.
 
I have to confess to being tempted to give him a bit of a wallop when the teeth make contact (as is sometime enevitable with this kind of behaviour) although I don't honestly think it helps much, as, as Prince33Sp4rkle says, the 'You hit me I nip you' thing is too much like their daft games they play, and I think for me to provide a sharp enough shock to make him think about his actions I'd have to belt him pretty hard (especially if the both barrels kicks his pal sometimes gives him as a 'get off' gesture don't always work!) and that's not my bag. Plus he's so small there's always the danger I'd mis-aim and get his head, and I don't want a headshy pony.

Tying up when crouching sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practise, he is very good at un-doing his rope, or snapping twine. Tying is also on our list of things to work on! :) I sometimes give him a sponge or one of his brushes to play with to distract him. That normally works, although I know this probably doesn't remove the behaviour! I suppose we could work on this in tandem...

As to ponies like him being dangerous and not fun. Although he has no concept personal space, he is a long way from 'dangerous' (although I own he might be 'dangerous' to small children with inexperienced and wandering fingers), I'm in danger of the odd bruise, and losing my jacket buttons right now. I also get immense pleasure from owning him. He is without a doubt the sweetest, friendliest, cheekiest little pony I've ever known, and probably part of the reason I have not corrected the nibbles as I should is I'm always a bit worried I will push away some of that love he has of being with me. I've never known a horse who wants human company as much as him, and who appreciates the attention he gets so much. Both my boys are rehome/rescues, and both of them amaze me with how trusting and friendly they are given their backgrounds.
 
try anti bite spray on an old jaket and also smother the lead rope and anything else he likes to nibble or bite with it. does not take them long to discover things taste very nasty and stop trying to bite them. also stops them wanting to untie themselves if the rope and knot are covered in it
 
To eradicate the field chores issue, can you pop him in a stable?
I find this works v well with over familiar ponies.
A mini i had in the past, bit, she pushed barrow over, so i removed her from situation, also meant she was handled twice daily and it wasn't left for 'tomorrow'. Also learnt stable skills, being left etc.
 
Oh dear, you have created a rod for your own back. Minis are quick and intelligent, and the problem is with ponies like this is that they treat it all as a game. Push them away and they just come back for more. And they play rough.

You need to be absolutely consistent with the boundaries. PS is right about the leading - if he's close enough to nip you're too late. Work on the personal space encroachment and the rest will take care of itself.

You also need to make sure you're treating him like a horse *all the time* and not like an overgrown pet. It's not funny or cute or 'loving', it's darned rude. He will be even nicer to be around when he's learnt to be polite. He's old enough to start work - some lunging and long reining will also help with the personal space issues and will teach him to move away from you and to take a bit of direction.

Other than the nipping, what is his leading like?
 
I have one too, he's a three year old warm-blood gelding!!! Everything is in his mouth, I'm not so fussed by baby chewing, but when he whips his whole head and neck round with teet he gets told! He either gets a sharp tug onnthe leadrope, or a loud oi! And he knows as soon as he's done it, it was wrong!!! He just can't seem to help himself. I think his brain is ready for more thathe body right now!
 
The best thing I have found when leading, particularly to deal with mouthy ponies or those that crowd, is I swing the lead rope like a helicopter (vertically not horizontally) in front of me. I'm not intentionally hitting the horse. But if the horse chooses to put his/her nose in my helicopter then they get bumped by it. Meanwhile I just beetle along pretending its nothing to do with me. So they learn that its better to keep a bit of space. The whole slapping/squirting thing can just mean that they jump away but then just come back again the helicopter thing makes it the horse's responsibility to keep out of my (now extended space). Looks a bit mad as I say I'm not hitting the horse just extending my space around me. I also tend to do when I'm in the field and being "embraced" by a crowd of over enthusiastic youngsters.

Almost hand reared or not he's just a horse so treat him as such. Backing up is useful but only if they are then made to stand and relax afterwards, the standing at a distance from you is the really important bit of the backing up process so even the slightest move of a hoof must be corrected. Then invite him to come to you (nicely) not you go to him. Eventually he'll be able to stand with you while you do jobs but not enter your space until explicitly invited to do so.
 
HippoH - I like the swingy rope idea. That has worked best for me with preventing him from following too close in the field and trying to nip before, I guess I just need to extend it to our leadrope interactions too. I guess I could just do a lot of standing next to him swinging ropes until he breaks the habit of wanting to eat me while we're standing still too. 'stand and chill' needs a lot of work right now!

One of the main issues I face is that with my setup, he and I are often forced into situations where we have to share each others personal space more closely than we would. To get to the field we have to pass through a very tight space which is, in reality, only just a tiny bit wider than he is, and our current 'stabling' is really a small barn with some old sheep stalls in, which, while they are big enough for the boys, soon becomes quite cramped if I'm in there with them, and doesn't give much backing up room. Really, he needs to learn that sometimes things will be in his space, but it's still not OK to try and eat those things. One day I will have my own land and be able to fix the setup to my liking - right now it is extremely hard (and horribly expensive) to get grazing for ponies up here, and even more difficult to find somewhere with stabling, so despite some of it's failings, my current location is a godsend.

Someone asked about his leading. It's OK - he's good at short distances, between fields & the barn (unless he's STARVING, and then he can be a bit bargey still), and 'practise' leading, where we walk around the field etc is usually good. Problems normally occur if we do anything longer than just a short walk (he gets over excited & pulls), or if he starts to get bored, either because we've practised too long, or he's been made to stand for too long. That is normally when what I have learned to recognise as his 'attention seeking' nip comes into play. It's normally aimed at my knee, and is the same nip he uses with his pal when he wants to get him to do something. That is the one the swingy rope will probably help with best.

One thing I do struggle with when working on his leading though is his separation anxiety. He can get VERY upset if he is left without company, to the point of throwing himself at fences, trying to jump things he obviously can't etc. He has once got himself beached half way over a fence, and I don't want to repeat that experience again. Quite often if we are moving him anywhere I have to lead him and his friend at the same time. Luckily for me is friend is very sensible, and also good at 'follow the tail', so I can get away with putting him on a long line at the rope's end and let him wander along behind us while I deal with the other one. It's not ideal for working on leading though, but I am on my own and have noone else to work with them with me. I'm going to try putting him into the barn by himself with a feed and leaving him for increasing periods before his pal joins him this winter, to get him used to being alone. I can lead him away from his friend thankfully, as people count as company as much as horses do in his eyes, but the trouble then comes when I have to leave him somewhere afterwards to go back and get the other pony.
 
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