Nic Barker's "Performance Hoof; Performance Horse": discuss

[Caol Ila]

My friend gave me this to read, and I skimmed it tonight. Had some interesting ideas that I'm struggling to get my head around. I'm also knackered, which isn't helping mental processing.

As I understand it, she's making an argument that trimming can do more harm than good, and if your barefoot horse's turnout, exercise, and mainly diet is perfectly balanced, it shouldn't ever require a trim.

It says that the barefoot horse, with all these things being perfectly balanced, should be able to travel over the sharpest rocks without being footy. She says nothing about boots, but implies that in an ideal world, you should not need them.

My farrier, however, cited a recent study wherein some researchers looked at the feet of Australian brumbies and found that over 50% of them were lame. His argument was that feral equus caballus, when left to survive on its own without human intervention, aren't necessarily sounder than domesticated horses. Brumbies, of course, are an interesting population to study because unlike North American feral horses, say, they have no predators (other than people).

I just can't get my head around not trimming my horses when they look like they need it. Obviously their turn-out situations are what they are (livery), and I work them as much as I can (in Hermosa's case, not a lot... but we go on walks). They are on ForagePlus balancer.

I would like to see more independent corroboration of Barker's thesis. It's very interesting, but I haven't seen it supported anecdotally, or from anyone else. I wrote a Horse and Hound piece on barefoot v. shoeing, and I spoke to endurance riders who keep their horses barefoot, but predominantly use boots for long rides over rough terrain.

 

[TPO]

It probably works when you have the perfect set up with various terrains, loafing areas and large acreage like she does at Rockley. Very difficult on a livery yard and even harder if starting with already compromised hooves.

Her blogs about the "celery trim" are definitely thought provoking but I'm unsure of the practicality for the average owner

 

[Cragrat]

It works very well as a guiding principle *IF* you can keep the horse moving comfortably, and IMHO it does help to have a medial /lateral balance in the hoof.

I bred a TB ( with a pinch of Clydesdale). He lived out most of the time on large acerages, and I tidied his hooves a few times a year. When he started work, I trimmed them more often to begin with until his hooves found a balance with the work, and for many many years I barely touched them -just an occaisional cosmetic tidying of a rough edge. As a 15 year old, he developed hock problems which affected his way of going, and therefore his hooves. I had his hocks medicated, and trimmed his hooves a few times to re-balance them. He is now 17, in full work, and I am back to rarely touching them.

A warmblood I bought was a bit toe-in. I found she stayed sounder if I let her stay toe in, but I did have to bring the medial edge of the worst hoof back a bit or it would get too extreme. It was possible to trim her so she looked straight, but she moved better if she was allowed the hoof as she wore it - it had squared off parts, and deviations, but she hunted/evented etc very happily on it. So not completely celery, but definitely taking her needs in to account.

The horse does need to be able to MOVE COMFORTABLY to stimulate correct growth of the caudal hoof, and needs surfaces which are abrasive but not painful to move on to get the wear. You need the time and commitment to fitten the hooves in the asme way you would fitten the rest of the horse. The distances and surfaces need to be gradually increased. You cannot spend 2 months riding on grass or arenas, and then go for a long road hack. However, road work is actually brilliant for developing strong, self trimming hooves. Miles and miles and miles of long slow road work will transform most hooves.

 

[shortstuff99]

None of my current 3 have ever worn shoes in their whole lives (oldest is 13), none of them are footy (touch wood!) None ever need boots. I still have to trim them every 8 weeks as they grow like crazy!

 

[ester]

Frank needed trimming when in work because other issues meant he didn't wear evenly and if allowed to that would become a bit of a cycle. I trimmed him every 2-3 weeks lightly. He went without boots but was never rock crunching as we could only achieve limited concavity. - Him flinting himself once out hunting was interesting (the only time we ever had an issue), the vet seemed genuinely quite concerned at how flexible the soles were and how he was therefore coping with them, then she started digging and realised how thick they were alongside that ?

Him reducing work fairly abruptly was quite telling, I think it took about 12 weeks for the rate of growth to slow down to match his reduced workload. He actually needs trimming less now he is loafing about the field than he did in full work.

I no longer have my book copy, it was loaned to a fair few hhoers and got posted out one too many times to come back.

 

[Caol Ila]

Foinavon prefers to be booted over the sharp rocks in the park. He's not hobbling lame barefoot, but he's a lot more confident and forward in the boots. So I whack on the boots, and off we go. Now I'm questioning it. Should I make him work over the rocks barefoot, even though he isn't keen? If he's happier on rough terrain in the boots, should he be ridden in the boots? Am I overthinking?

When I started a youngster in 2006, I began riding him over the Colorado rocks, and he felt sore and footy. I'd led him in-hand, and I'd ponied him with Gypsum, and he was fine, unridden, but the weight of the rider seemed to make a difference. Knowledge being what it was, I put front shoes on him straightaway. Now I'd mess around with diet and boots before resorting to shoes.

I can putz around with feed and exercise until the cows come home, but I can't create Nic Barker's track system.

 

[paddy555]

Foinavon prefers to be booted over the sharp rocks in the park. He's not hobbling lame barefoot, but he's a lot more confident and forward in the boots. So I whack on the boots, and off we go. Now I'm questioning it. Should I make him work over the rocks barefoot, even though he isn't keen? If he's happier on rough terrain in the boots, should he be ridden in the boots? Am I overthinking?


.

so what would be the logic in taking a horse who is obviously not totally happy BF over sharp rocks unbooted and making him more unhappy by removing his boots? Why not listen to the horse rather than over think?

so many people have made this mistake in the past.

You say you haven't seen Barker's thesis supported anecdotally or from anyone else? could the reason be that no one else does?
I got my first barefoot horse in 1973 and have had many since. I don't support it. Possibly it may work in other countries but I cannot see how it would work in the majority of UK horse owning set ups.

I also cannot see the point of it. If the horse is happy booted then slap some boots on it and get on with the exercise. Exercising overweight horses will do them far more good.

Sticking my neck out I think her ideas have done more harm than good. For most they are not achievable and I have seen a lot of horses suffer as people have taken her views as gospel.

 

[GinaGeo]

I like to give my horses a period of time to adjust to their best natural balance and then trim to complement.

For example, one of mine has medial flare in front that he needs. But behind it needs keeping on top of as he ends up with massive balance issues left to his own devices.

It’s better to boot and have a comfortable horse when you know the terrain will be tricky. I do try and intersperse with easy ‘boot free’ rides if possible.

I have one horse that doesn’t need boots. One that mostly doesn’t. One that mostly does in front. And one that always does in front. They’re individuals, and they get what they need ?

I think Nic Barker has done some excellent work and undoubtedly helps many horses. But the system only works in the right circumstances. I haven’t got the time or access to safe roads to get mile upon mile of roadwork into mine.


And mine do live on a track with varied surfaces (albeit a short one) so an awful lot harder again if you’re on traditional livery.

 

[palo1]

I think Nic Barker's level of success in rehabbing horses is extraordinary though not all work of course. She has a fairly unique level of experience too so I like to err on the side of listening! However, she is the first to accept that if you can't get the systems, work and dietary protocol in place then you are going to find her approach more difficult.

I have had horses unshod and partially shod for years and years now. One of the things I found with tricky horses was that in fact road work barefoot was not the most helpful; for one of mine it wore away too much hoof for one thing and he was very slow in growing more hoof due to his breeding in all likelihood (appy x). The thing that helped some of ours the most was the use of terrain whilst barefoot to provide real, varied and comfortable sole and frog stimulation. Although incredibly basic, that realisation was a game changer for me; I had been working one horse so well on tarmac but he couldn't cope with anything else - because he never got anything else to a decent extent!. I then protected his feet with boots for roadwork and worked harder on the off road stuff. I have had some really surprising results but forestry hard core has always been hard to achieve the 'rock crunching' status over.

You don't have to be 'purist'! One of our horses had horrible medial flare on a hind (for years!!) - it was just the way he was and we left him be like that as he was sound. He is absolutely amazing barefoot on those hinds but his fronts need more help and I became mentally and financially exhausted having put in place bespoke supplementation and barefoot and gut friendly feeds, a track at not inconsiderable expense and very tailored work. He still found that he ran out of hoof if I worked him 'normally' (3-4 times a week over roads, tracks and grass). Boots were a liability on a wintery open hill so he is shod in front in winter. For 7-8 months of the year he is fabulously barefoot and not actively trimmed. The combo of some trimming and 'protection' (not a huge fan of shoes but boots never really worked safely for us ) with untrimmed and unshod are the key. Some of our other horses maybe get 'trimmed' once or twice a year and do all of their work without a problem. That is my preference!!

I find our farrier's trim is helpful though it is a very 'lite' approach lol!! I think you just have to do what works best for you and on balance keeps your horse happy in his work and sound. Nic's knowledge and experience are utterly invaluable but the best practice for your horse is the one where he is sound, happy and has healthy feet.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I haven't read the book but have an idea of the gist. I don't have a Rockley set up and never will. But/and I could neither leave my horses to self trim or work without boots. We do a conservative trim every couple of weeks. A good rounded bevel. Keeping the toes back and working to level up the heels. Horse's feet have all improved no end under our care as has their comfort and soundness. I'd love to have roads that didn't wear their feet to nubs in one ride so I could use them, but they are just too abrasive. Metals shoes lasted 5 weeks, so it isn't all a hoof quality issue... although I have had some hoof quality issues thanks to the minerals in my grass.

I think the idea of letting the horse self trim is reasonably sound in theory BUT if you haven't got the right environment (and who does) then you have to help them. If you pick up the hoof to trim thinking that you are aiming to do what the perfect ground situation would have done then it is a good mental space to be in though.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I boot when I need to, don’t when I don’t. We have some granite topped roads that wear down even natives feet but I still do minimal trims every 2-4 weeks to keep on top of them and to make it easier for me. Having some pea gravel/shingle (I have a burn ‘beach’ ) and some sand turnout helps a great deal. But the south Lanarkshire environment is not conducive to rock crunching feet year round-although the Fell is the closest I’ve got to it but he has truly great feet and I generally only boot a few times a year.

 

[ycbm]

His argument was that feral equus caballus, when left to survive on its own without human intervention, aren't necessarily sounder than domesticated horses.

Nic isn't talking about feral horses. She's talking about domestic horses in daily management whose diet has been tuned and whose work has been carefully matched to the condition of the feet at the time.

I know Nic well and she knows my view that she makes that sound much easier than it is for the average owner. She has land where she was able to create a long circular track system from shale from her own land including a large undercover pea gravel standing. If you have that sort of facility, most horses could go barefoot without boots after time on it.

I thought the book was OK, but if I remember right, the quantities of magnesium oxide she recommends feeding are frankly crazy ?

 

[j1ffy]

One of mine went to Rockley ten years ago and I've had all three of my horses 'self-trimming' since then. It absolutely does work but it's not always easy.

My rehab horse is most sensitive and will still prefer to walk on grass than tarmac, but he's 100% sound and capable. Post-Rockley he went on working livery to a friend's riding holiday place for 3 years as I was abroad, and he worked very hard over all surfaces without a day's concern. If his hooves got a bit long, she made sure he did the 'Monday' ride which included a good trot along a gravel track. On my return, he and I did BD to Elementary (training at Medium), unaffiliated jumping and ODEs, a couple of long distance multi-day rides. His hooves weren't touched for a good 5-6 years! He's having a quieter life with his loaner now so does occasionally need a trim as his work isn't as consistent - he has always had better hooves the more work he does.

My other two PREs have both had great hooves. Indio came from Spain fully shod and made a very easy transition to barefoot. Chilli, my 4yo, had shoes on when backed last year but has been unshod since. Both prefer walking on tarmac to grass most of the time! I guess grass is a bit harder work. Chilli has some medial flare but our hoof care guy says best to leave it while he's still developing, he's certainly very sound and capable. His hooves are checked by hoof care guy about every six months and I'll file off any sharp chips but otherwise leave them be.

Mine have all been on traditional livery yards, I do try to have them turned out overnight to maximise movement and reduce daytime (sugary) grass intake. Pocholo (the rehab) has to be in the fat club paddock for most of the year with the native ponies. Other than that, I've experimented with diet. I've found that Indio and Chilli go footy on any sort of chaff but copra, oats, linseed, a good balancer (currently Oxydane) with occasional magnesium added if needed seem to work for all of them.

One thing that has changed a lot since Nic wrote that book is the availability of good balancers. When P came back from Rockley 10 years ago we had to mix our own!

 

[Tiddlypom]

IIRC Nic posts somewhere that she is doing a good job as a trimmer if all she does is to leave her tools in the van, observe the feet, and then discuss the horse and its ongoing management with the owner. She thinks that trimmers are too keen to trim the feet.

Well, that may be grand with her set up at Rockley, but as said by others it's not feasible for most of the rest of us, or for the ongoing care of most horses that have been through Rockley and subsequently gone back home.

 

[ycbm]

so what would be the logic in taking a horse who is obviously not totally happy BF over sharp rocks unbooted and making him more unhappy by removing his boots? Why not listen to the horse rather than over think?

The same logic as a trainee bricklayer uses in removing his gloves to allow his hands to build up callouses. He can feel better without the gloves, the gloves are a faff and an expense, and nature gives him a better solution.

I'm not talking about giving horses surfaces so challenging they are damaged, but the simulation of increased blood to challenged areas of foot will generally result in stronger growth.
.

 

[ycbm]

There is a fine line to be drawn, I think, between horses which have grown flares on their feet in order to compensate for permanent defects in the limbs above them, and recognising where a temporary injury (perhaps never even known about) has caused a flare in the hoof but the flare then keeps the horse moving in wrong way after the injury is healed. They will very often remove it for themselves, but possibly not always.
.

 

[j1ffy]

There is a fine line to be drawn, I think, between horses which have grown flares on their feet in order to compensate for permanent defects in the limbs above them, and recognising where a temporary injury (perhaps never even known about) has caused a flare in the hoof but the flare then keeps the horse moving in wrong way after the injury is healed. They will very often remove it for themselves, but possibly not always.
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I think this highlights the challenge with Nic's approach - it's reliant on having the intelligence + feel + willingness to try different things to get the right balance between doing what's right for the horse and potentially causing harm.

Also there are many poor trimmers out there giving out dubious advice, just as there are many poor farriers who don't assess the whole horse. It is a minefield and IMO better to provide additional protection in the way of boots or shoes if needed rather than pushing on dogmatically with a self-trimming approach if it's not working for you.

 

[I'm Dun]

Two of mine are self trimming so long as we do some roadwork. I call road work a "council trim" as thats exactly what is it. The other one is an ex racer, he needed a lot of trimming. I had to take his bars back which I found terrifying, but made a huge difference. He then had 2 months where I didnt touch them, and they did improve. But then they started to slowly go long toe, underrun heel again, so I'm back to trimming, just in a less invasive way.

When I can get him working hard I think he will get to the self trimming stage, but I find it impossible to do unless they have good feet first.

 

[sbloom]

I've been to Rockley and supped tea with Nic, she has amazing facilities and takes things slowly. IIRC for roughly the first month they're on mostly rounded pea beach shingle, and she lunges them on a surface now and again to find the point where their hoof landing improves, either flat or heel first. Once that happens she starts ride and lead on the roads, then later she starts riding, and that roadwork is the trim. There are principles we can all apply but hardly anyone will have a set up as good as hers.

And no-one should be whipping hoof boots off and leaving a horse sore, as already said it's about allowing the horse to move more over terrain that is comfortable and building up until they can deal with more challenging terrain. Hoof boots in between.

 

[paddy555]

The same logic as a trainee bricklayer uses in removing his gloves to allow his hands to build up callouses. He can feel better without the gloves, the gloves are a faff and an expense, and nature gives him a better solution.

I'm not talking about giving horses surfaces so challenging they are damaged, but the simulation of increased blood to challenged areas of foot will generally result in stronger growth.
.

I understand the logic perfectly but I have seen it tried many times over the years and I have seen a LOT of sore horses with riders who have adopted this philosophy. Still I guess it keeps the physios in work

 

[Caol Ila]

When I first got Hermosa, her feet were really long. Too long. She had never had them touched in 2.5 years. The other youngstock at the stud also had long feet, where the toe was starting to curl.

Is this because their diets were not adequate?
Is it because they were just in a field and not running about on a range of surfaces?
If they had the correct diet and more surfaces than boggy grass, would their feet have looked better than they did?

 

[Regandal]

When I first got Hermosa, her feet were really long. Too long. She had never had them touched in 2.5 years. The other youngstock at the stud also had long feet, where the toe was starting to curl.

Is this because their diets were not adequate?
Is it because they were just in a field and not running about on a range of surfaces?
If they had the correct diet and more surfaces than boggy grass, would their feet have looked better than they did?

Surface I suppose. They need some abrasive stuff and challenging gradients. There was a theory that navicular in warmbloods stemmed from being raised in perfectly flat paddocks, no challenge to the digital cushion or legs.

 

[j1ffy]

When I first got Hermosa, her feet were really long. Too long. She had never had them touched in 2.5 years. The other youngstock at the stud also had long feet, where the toe was starting to curl.

Is this because their diets were not adequate?
Is it because they were just in a field and not running about on a range of surfaces?
If they had the correct diet and more surfaces than boggy grass, would their feet have looked better than they did?

I would say all of the above! Chilli needed trimming when he was out at grass as a youngster - he was only on forage (no balancer) and had no abrasive surfaces.

 

[Zuzan]

I do think there is some not so good trimming (just as there is some not so good farriery around)

If you are able to set up a multi surface track like Nic's then yes no trimming becomes more of a possibility.

If you don't have that kind of track then you need to be able to regularly work a horse on different surfaces.. My horse has never been shod. We have access to surfaced forestry tracks which pretty abrasive as well as tarmac lanes .. without those surfaces healthy hooves, trimmed or not are much harder to maintain / obtain. When I am able to work consistently on these surfaces as well as in the arena we get pretty close to self trimming.

I look at hooves in the same way as muscles .. they need to fitened incrementally in the same way as you would think about fitening muscles.

Many of Nic's "graduates" have continued to work healthily unshod but much of the post Rockley rehab work involves work on other surfaces. And some were pretty much basket cases before Rockley.

It helps massively if owners understand hoof anatomy and function as this helps assess how fit a hoof is and what action to take .. whether it is more or less work on smoother or more irregular / abrasive surfaces, trimming etc. If there is one thing I think would improve the lot of hooves is if owners / carers were as interested and hooves as they were in matchy matchy, bling and social media. Many seem to have lost the concept of No Hoof No Horse.

Diet is absolutely key and all horses are different, diet is very individual and also tailored to the level of work. Being overweight doesn't help.

Hoof hygiene is also critical .. lots of people still think a deep central sulcus isn't a problem!

I have a problem with the Brumby study as equids are non native to Australasia and Australia has very high iron (which is pro inflammatory) in the soil. Whereas Mustangs are in their natural range and have an ecological niche that does belong to equids.

 

[sbloom]

Horses in the wild do 25 miles per day but seldom on anything as hard as tarmac, a good amount of roadwork, built up to gradually does the bulk of the trimming. Nic works them to hunting level fitness, at least in terms of walk and trot roadwork, so it's a few miles.

And yes, hooves must be seen as an extension of muscles in many ways, they must be conditioned gradually. The right diet and the right work/surface should, in most cases, enable self trimming, giving the horse the hoof it needs at that time. That's the theory!

 

[I'm Dun]

If you are able to set up a multi surface track like Nic's then yes no trimming becomes more of a possibility.

If you don't have that kind of track then you need to be able to regularly work a horse on different surfaces.. My horse has never been shod. We have access to surfaced forestry tracks which pretty abrasive as well as tarmac lanes .. without those surfaces healthy hooves, trimmed or not are much harder to maintain / obtain. When I am able to work consistently on these surfaces as well as in the arena we get pretty close to self trimming.

I have mine on a track spring, summer and autum, and chucked a load of rough hardcore down in one area and they have gravel in another. It does help and was cheap and fairly easy.

Hoof hygiene is also critical .. lots of people still think a deep central sulcus isn't a problem!

See I dont think it is. I cant remember the last time I picked out the feet of the self trimming ones. If you get the diet right they dont get thrush. The ex racer had red horse stuff applied when he came as his feet were terrible and he needed help to clear the thrush. Now his feet are a better shape and more functional he doesnt get anything applied and again, rarely picked out, just a quick clean before a trim if its necessary.

 

[sbloom]

See I dont think it is. I cant remember the last time I picked out the feet of the self trimming ones. If you get the diet right they dont get thrush. The ex racer had red horse stuff applied when he came as his feet were terrible and he needed help to clear the thrush. Now his feet are a better shape and more functional he doesnt get anything applied and again, rarely picked out, just a quick clean before a trim if its necessary.

I think the issue is that a deep sulcus in poorly balanced hooves will nearly always harbour thrush, even if farriers pay it no attention and dismiss concerns. Treating it is imperative in most cases but yes, diet will be a big part of it and will be important to stop it coming back.

You're in a very different place where you're only worrying about prevention, so you're right that at that point hoof hygiene is less critical.

 

[ycbm]

I do agree that horses on a good mineral balanced diet get thrush less but they can still get thrush. My 3 year old, 6 months in my ownership, got thrush in one foot out of four last month. It's as common as athletes foot is in humans.

In a uk climate I would say picking out feet is pretty much essential if you totally want to avoid thrush.
.

 

[bouncing_ball]

so what would be the logic in taking a horse who is obviously not totally happy BF over sharp rocks unbooted and making him more unhappy by removing his boots? Why not listen to the horse rather than over think?

so many people have made this mistake in the past.

You say you haven't seen Barker's thesis supported anecdotally or from anyone else? could the reason be that no one else does?
I got my first barefoot horse in 1973 and have had many since. I don't support it. Possibly it may work in other countries but I cannot see how it would work in the majority of UK horse owning set ups.

I also cannot see the point of it. If the horse is happy booted then slap some boots on it and get on with the exercise. Exercising overweight horses will do them far more good.

Sticking my neck out I think her ideas have done more harm than good. For most they are not achievable and I have seen a lot of horses suffer as people have taken her views as gospel.

This. I sent a horse there in 2012-13 I’m not sure I’d send another. He came home with deep seated thrush holes, lame, moving on 3 tracks.

Not putting boots on a sore, toe first barefoot horse seems counterproductive to me. I don’t think you should trim to a perfect foot image all times, but do think skilful tactful trimming can massively improve foot structure.

I don’t think all the concepts are bad, but the philosophy of someone like Pete Ramey seem much better and wider adopted.

Diet, trim as needed, padded boots as needed to get landing heel first, movement once heel first, don’t trim sole (typically)

 

[bouncing_ball]

I've been to Rockley and supped tea with Nic, she has amazing facilities and takes things slowly. IIRC for roughly the first month they're on mostly rounded pea beach shingle, and she lunges them on a surface now and again to find the point where their hoof landing improves, either flat or heel first. Once that happens she starts ride and lead on the roads, then later she starts riding, and that roadwork is the trim. There are principles we can all apply but hardly anyone will have a set up as good as hers.

And no-one should be whipping hoof boots off and leaving a horse sore, as already said it's about allowing the horse to move more over terrain that is comfortable and building up until they can deal with more challenging terrain. Hoof boots in between.

Nic when I was there 2012-13 didn’t advocate using boots at all, and advised not trimming feet.