No Blue Tongue Here!!

[PurpleSpots]

I was going to post this in one of the other threads, but it stood out to me so much when I watched it just now that I think it deserves a thread of its own!

This horse has only ever been ridden with a neckrope, and has never worn a bridle or bit in her life.

Imagine if dressage horses were trained this way. Maybe there'd need to be some adjustment to the lines used for breeding, but imagine how wonderful it would be to see dressage done more like this.

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[Midlifecrisis]

I’m going out on a limb here and I have my tin hat on..I understand you are enjoying the work being done with no bridle or bit but all I see is a stilted, constrained, hobbley gait no forward, free movement and it really doesn’t appeal to me at all. I’m sure that years ago someone on here (Red perhaps?) posted herself and horse partner working without bridle and the horse moved freely and was very impressive.

 

[PurpleSpots]

Oh there are absolutely holes to pick, but compared to what is seen at top level dressage these days, I know which horse I'd rather be.

I think my point is imagine if you amalgamate the lack of resistance caused by bits and nosebands and poll pressure seen here, with what dressage is supposed to show with flow, freeness of gaits and expression, I can't see that there'd be any issues with modern day dressage and people would flock to support it.

I also think it gives a striking visual reference for how much you can condense a horse in a gait without anything on their head, so it should act as a wake-up call to those who believe or are taught that holding and kicking is the only way to create collection.

Obviously this mare is a completely different breed type (Quarter Horse) so won't have the natural gaits that a sport horse/warmblood type would, and she is not being trained towards dressage, but I think if you can see past that there is so much that could be used as inspiration for improving modern day dressage.

I just find it fairly easy to see aspects from one situation which could be incorporated into another to solve serious welfare issues, but maybe my brain just works oddly?!

 

[smolmaus]

I'm with both of you. The degree of collection is impressive and does absolutely put paid to the kick and pull school of dressage but... I also don't enjoy how the horse is moving but x2, the trainer doesn't want what I want, they want what they're getting so it's still a training success!

 

[maya2008]

So… I love riding with almost nothing - neck rope, bareback - as a fun thing to do. Have done it. It was one of my main goals as a young adult with my own horse.

However, first I will say that a neck rope is not nothing. If pulled back, it cuts into the windpipe. Left and right less so, but you can put pressure on a neck rope as you can on any other piece of tack. I was asthmatic before my children were born - severely so. The idea of something cutting into an animal’s windpipe makes me queasy.

Secondly, it has its limitations:
- Insurance for use in public (including roads);
- Native pony snacking temptation in spring/summer;
- training a horse who doesn’t naturally go round and teaching them to lift their backs to protect themselves from the weight of a rider;
- Spooky youngsters, general learning about the world moments, 5yo exuberance, that sort of thing.

Thirdly,
The way that horse is moving. Yesterday I was out hacking with a group of ponies - all exuberant, happy, full of the joys of spring. Most of the time we all had loose reins, so in practical terms very much no pressure anywhere on the head - that only really got applied if a pony was spooking or trying to zoom past the others. They were all moving freely, forward, happily, in balance.

 

[smolmaus]

I agree a neckrope isn't nothing but to say pressure on the underside of the neck is the same as pressure on the tongue or bars of the mouth is pretty disingenuous. We put a bit in their mouth specifically because it is so sensitive. Not saying you can haul on it all day and not cause discomfort but the inside of the mouth is almost infinitely more sensitive; horses neck has a LOT more protective muscle than ours. Even in an accidental scenario, say you fall off. An accidental pull on a neckrope is not going to have anywhere near the same effect as accidentally putting your bodyweight on a bit.

I personally trained a lift of the back with no bit or rein pressure at all. In fact any bit or rein pressure is counter-productive for that ask, for my pony. The others on your list, the reason a bit works "better" is that it causes more pressure that the horse wishes to avoid. If you want to train with less pressure, a neckrope is obviously going to apply less and maybe you'll need to find stronger reinforcement from elsewhere. If you want the option of stronger pressure, use a bit. That doesn't mean you can't use a neckrope for everything, just that you might need to change your methods slightly.

 

[JenJ]

I’m going out on a limb here and I have my tin hat on..I understand you are enjoying the work being done with no bridle or bit but all I see is a stilted, constrained, hobbley gait no forward, free movement and it really doesn’t appeal to me at all. I’m sure that years ago someone on here (Red perhaps?) posted herself and horse partner working without bridle and the horse moved freely and was very impressive.

Thank you for speaking up and posting this.

I saw the video yesterday, and was mildly horrified at the horse's movement. But I have huge respect for @PurpleSpots posts, so assumed that my reaction was down to my own ignorance, and I obviously needed to know more about the 'correct' way to do things before I could make any comment. Seeing your post has reassured me that my instinct isn't so off after all.

I'm still mildly concerned that this way of moving is being celebrated as a good thing. It looks awful. And awfully uncomfortable for the horse.

I agree a neckrope isn't nothing but to say pressure on the underside of the neck is the same as pressure on the tongue or bars of the mouth is pretty disingenuous.

No one said that?

 

[PurpleSpots]

I've no time to write a proper reply now, but am fascinated to hear other people's opinions - genuinely!! I think it's a really interesting discussion.

For me, the horse's expression, the look of their body, signs or absence of tension, brace and tightness throughout... Is the horse easily able to say 'No'. They're the primary things. I don't see any of the loud resistance and tightness that you see so much in top level dressage in this video. And given that the horse has never worn a bridle, and having followed the owner/rider/trainer for a while, I know that other sorts of coercion haven't been used, and that he prioritises the rapport. Perhaps that sets me up to be biased... I'm usually fairly good at recognising bias though...

I have watched the video a couple of times trying to see through others' eyes and am trying to pinpoint how to match things up in a similar sort of way to two people looking at a cylinder from different angles - one swears it's a circle, and one swears it's a rectangle type-thing...

(And thank you very much JenJ, that's incredibly kind on a drizzly windy day!!)

 

[smolmaus]

No one said that?

It was the phrasing of "cutting" into the windpipe, when directly comparing the two that I was objecting to. When objectively a neckrope will always produce less concentrated pressure on the neck than a bit in the mouth.

 

[Peglo]

Thank you for speaking up and posting this.

I saw the video yesterday, and was mildly horrified at the horse's movement. But I have huge respect for @PurpleSpots posts, so assumed that my reaction was down to my own ignorance, and I obviously needed to know more about the 'correct' way to do things before I could make any comment. Seeing your post has reassured me that my instinct isn't so off after all.

I'm still mildly concerned that this way of moving is being celebrated as a good thing. It looks awful. And awfully uncomfortable for the horse.

I also didn’t enjoy watching the horse move but didn’t know if that was my ignorance. It just looks so stifled and heavy. I don’t care for modern dressage moves but I like seeing horses moving forward and covering ground easily.

That’s not to take away the skill to teach all that with a neck rope though.

 

[JenJ]

It was the phrasing of "cutting" into the windpipe, when directly comparing the two that I was objecting to. When objectively a neckrope will always produce less concentrated pressure on the neck than a bit in the mouth.

I didn't read it that way, but I appreciate we all interpret written words differently

 

[JenJ]

(And thank you very much JenJ, that's incredibly kind on a drizzly windy day!!)

Well, perhaps contrarily given my previous post, I have started following him on FB as a result of you drawing attention to him, as I realise there is probably a lot I can learn from what he does

I just don't think the way that this particular horse is going, is something I want to aim for.

 

[paddy555]

I think the video in the opening post is not a good choice and clouds people's views on what for some is a controversial topic. The horse may look good if you are into western US horses and in fact he looks pretty good compared to some of the dreadful loping footage out there however he doesn't, to my mind, move well and he doesn't look very happy. He has his ears back a lot.

You can put extreme pressure on a windpipe with a thin rope, A neck ring is a far better tool to use.

This video shows a happier horse .

 

[TheMule]

I think the video in the opening post is not a good choice and clouds people's views on what for some is a controversial topic. The horse may look good if you are into western US horses and in fact he looks pretty good compared to some of the dreadful loping footage out there however he doesn't, to my mind, move well and he doesn't look very happy. He has his ears back a lot.

You can put extreme pressure on a windpipe with a thin rope, A neck ring is a far better tool to use.

This video shows a happier horse .

Horse looks happier, but it’s also trotting along on its forehand with a toe drag and the canter is 4 beat
I don’t doubt you can ride a horse up together and in collection well with a neck rope, but neither video shows this

 

[daffy44]

70K views · 4.4K reactions | Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis toutes ces années. Il est

Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis...

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someone who can ride a horse in balance, with clean changes, and a neck rope.

 

[TheMule]

70K views · 4.4K reactions | Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis toutes ces années. Il est

Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis...

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someone who can ride a horse in balance, with clean changes, and a neck rope.

Shame about all the flowers

 

[daffy44]

Shame about all the flowers

You can't have everything!
I don't mind the flowers as they highlight how little pressure she puts through the neck rope.

 

[Cloball]

Looks like it would fall apart if you applied any pressure.

 

[paddy555]

70K views · 4.4K reactions | Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis toutes ces années. Il est

Il n’est pas que le cheval de ma vie. Il n’est pas que celui auprès duquel j’ai grandi. Il n’est pas que celui qui m’a tant fait rêver. Il n’est pas que celui qui fait battre mon coeur depuis...

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someone who can ride a horse in balance, with clean changes, and a neck rope.

so that raises the question, which is really the subject of this thread, of why if that person can ride in a neck rope dressage riders need so much tack on the head, bits, nosebands etc etc etc. Hard pressure on the reins, blue tongue, rolkur and all the rest of it.

I'm not suggesting that all top dressage riders should remove their bridles and ride in a neck ring but why can't they remove a fair amount of the tack and put a lot less pressure on the horse with their riding and that become a standard requirement for all.
The horses clearly hate it from their pained expressions, many of the "horse" public dislike it so are the horses so poorly trained, are they just the wrong sort of horses ie are we breeding horses that are so uncontrollable or are the riders either poor or just looking for quick fixes.
A genuine questions for those in the know as I am fed up of having to look at these unfortunate horses.

 

[Nocturnal]

Stupid question maybe from someone who’s not brave enough to ride in a neck rope if it can be replaced with a string of flowers, what’s the point of it at all?

 

[SpeedyPony]

Stupid question maybe from someone who’s not brave enough to ride in a neck rope if it can be replaced with a string of flowers, what’s the point of it at all?

So I've not ridden in a neck rope, but I have ridden bridle-less. From what I can make out, some people have the neck rope there for emergencies and are effectively riding without any 'reins', others use the neck rope as reins and have just moved the pressure from the bit/noseband to the neck.

 

[nikkimariet]

Ok. Riddle me this. At what point would it be considered acceptable for a horse ridden in a bitted bridle to have its ears back for most or all of a ride?

 

[smolmaus]

Ok. Riddle me this. At what point would it be considered acceptable for a horse ridden in a bitted bridle to have its ears back for most or all of a ride?

I don't disagree with your point but to answer the question as it is... all the time. See it all the time.

 

[daffy44]

so that raises the question, which is really the subject of this thread, of why if that person can ride in a neck rope dressage riders need so much tack on the head, bits, nosebands etc etc etc. Hard pressure on the reins, blue tongue, rolkur and all the rest of it.

I'm not suggesting that all top dressage riders should remove their bridles and ride in a neck ring but why can't they remove a fair amount of the tack and put a lot less pressure on the horse with their riding and that become a standard requirement for all.
The horses clearly hate it from their pained expressions, many of the "horse" public dislike it so are the horses so poorly trained, are they just the wrong sort of horses ie are we breeding horses that are so uncontrollable or are the riders either poor or just looking for quick fixes.
A genuine questions for those in the know as I am fed up of having to look at these unfortunate horses.

As a starting point the double bridle is compulsory at 5* International GP under FEI rules. National federations have their own rules for example BD allows the rider to choose whether to use a snaffle or a double, I think in time the FEI will allow a choice, they do now allow the choice at Small Tour which they didnt used to, so hopefully it will come through to to level in time.

 

[JenJ]

As a starting point the double bridle is compulsory at 5* International GP under FEI rules. National federations have their own rules for example BD allows the rider to choose whether to use a snaffle or a double, I think in time the FEI will allow a choice, they do now allow the choice at Small Tour which they didnt used to, so hopefully it will come through to to level in time.

Very basic and numpty question, but why is it compulsory?

Is it felt that the required movements at that level are not possible without the additional "refinement" of the double?

 

[daffy44]

Very basic and numpty question, but why is it compulsory?

Is it felt that the required movements at that level are not possible without the additional "refinement" of the double?

I believe its "traditional" but it makes no sense to me either. Personally I think allowing the rider the choice to use the bridle they feel suits their individual horse best is the right way to go, as per BD rules.

 

[paddy555]

As a starting point the double bridle is compulsory at 5* International GP under FEI rules. National federations have their own rules for example BD allows the rider to choose whether to use a snaffle or a double, I think in time the FEI will allow a choice, they do now allow the choice at Small Tour which they didnt used to, so hopefully it will come through to to level in time.

"in time" and in the meantime the horse suffering goes on Sorry but "traditional" is not good enough.

 

[daffy44]

"in time" and in the meantime the horse suffering goes on Sorry but "traditional" is not good enough.

I agree with you, I was simply stating a fact that the double is compulsory at the that level under FEI rules. My personal opinion is that is as stupid rule, and I would make it the riders choice.

 

[paddy555]

I agree with you, I was simply stating a fact that the double is compulsory at the that level under FEI rules. My personal opinion is that is as stupid rule, and I would make it the riders choice.

sorry not challenging you just the system which seems remarkably slow in recognising the problem.

eta challenging wasn't meant to sound rude,

 

[daffy44]

sorry not challenging you just the system which seems remarkably slow in recognising the problem.

eta challenging wasn't meant to sound rude,

its absolutely fine, I think we are in agreement, especially since this is such an easy rule to change, and they have already changed it at the lower level, so it is incomprehensible to me why they dont change it at GP as well. I was just explaining that riding at that level the riders dont have a choice in competition.