No Blue Tongue Here!!

[SpeedyPony]

I'm not sure that making the double optional would have any useful effect though, they've alway had the option of using it softly and appropriately, they just choose not to. I imagine those that misuse the double are not going to stop using it were it to be an option available to them. Even insisting that they could only ride in a snaffle would be damage control rather than a fix, as the problem is the riding style, not the equipment used.
It's rather like the argument against spurs being mandatory at a certain level- dummy spurs have always been an option, but most didn't choose them- because it didn't suit their style of riding.
I suspect that it's the marking that really needs to change, as at the moment any changes to equipment rules will just be trying to mitigate the damage to the horse caused by a fundamentally incorrect way of schooling/riding.

 

[Exasperated]

I’m going out on a limb here and I have my tin hat on..I understand you are enjoying the work being done with no bridle or bit but all I see is a stilted, constrained, hobbley gait no forward, free movement and it really doesn’t appeal to me at all. I’m sure that years ago someone on here (Red perhaps?) posted herself and horse partner working without bridle and the horse moved freely and was very impressive.

100% agree - if I went to view any horse moving like that, I’d seriously doubt its soundness, irrespective what hardware was on the front end.

 

[smolmaus]

I'm not sure that making the double optional would have any useful effect though, they've alway had the option of using it softly and appropriately, they just choose not to. I imagine those that misuse the double are not going to stop using it were it to be an option available to them. Even insisting that they could only ride in a snaffle would be damage control rather than a fix, as the problem is the riding style, not the equipment used.
It's rather like the argument against spurs being mandatory at a certain level- dummy spurs have always been an option, but most didn't choose them- because it didn't suit their style of riding.
I suspect that it's the marking that really needs to change, as at the moment any changes to equipment rules will just be trying to mitigate the damage to the horse caused by a fundamentally incorrect way of schooling/riding.

Absolutely. Not to repeat myself but if they wanted to do better then they could! I don't think anybody can say they haven't ever seen someone ride in a double with a light hand and hardly touch the curb rein. We know it's possible, even at amateur level. Its also possible to wear spurs that never touch the horse. After all, aren't we told that anyone who wears spurs MUST have the expertise and control of lower leg to know exactly where that spur is at all times? Or else they couldn't ethically wear spurs?? they could stop hauling the mouth off a horse while jabbing it in the ribs any time they wanted.

 

[paddy555]

I'm not sure that making the double optional would have any useful effect though, they've alway had the option of using it softly and appropriately, they just choose not to. I imagine those that misuse the double are not going to stop using it were it to be an option available to them. Even insisting that they could only ride in a snaffle would be damage control rather than a fix, as the problem is the riding style, not the equipment used.

I agree. I don't see why it should be a choice because they will still abuse. Restrict the choice to limmited options where it is less easy to abuse with use and have checks on tightness. I really don't want to see horses struggling in this way just t satisfy the ego of their riders.
.

 

[daffy44]

I think you are missing my point. I totally agree that if a rider is abusive then they will be abusive in any tack. But I think the choice is important because not all horses are the same, and whether through mouth conformation or just personal preference not all horses like the same bit/bridle, and I think its wrong to force them to wear a double if they prefer a snaffle and vice versa. I dont think snaffles will stop abusive riders, not at all, but they will make some horses a lot happier and more comfortable in their work, and that matters.

 

[PurpleSpots]

I feel frustrated that I've not been able to write any further replies since my last one, but it's been really interesting to see where the thread has gone to without steering it back to what I was getting at - it's basically developed into a debate about double and snaffle bridles at Grand Prix, as well as pulling holes in the concept of riding with a neckrope.

For me, the video shows a horse who (by genetics) has very workmanlike gaits. Quarter Horses are not flambouyantly gaited, and they were initially bred to race over only a quarter of a mile, so their whole genetic history is for quick acceleration: short strides to give more push over the same time period as a long stride, and plenty of muscle in order to do so, while spending minimal time in the air. As their stride length is shorter than some breeds in addition to having plenty of musculature, this enables them to do quick, sharp changes of direction when working cattle (or demonstrating that they could if there were cattle there), and so are used extensively for cow work, with no other breed outperforming them to my knowledge. They also excel at barrel racing.

These attributes mean that over the same distance, they will naturally do more strides than a longer-striding horse, and so in comparison could appear 'tight' or 'stiff'. I also find that many Quarter Horses are built downhill, so they're at a disadvantage there compared to warmbloods and the like too.

You just can't compare the way a QH moves to the way a warmblood moves. Or any horse bred for English disciplines really. For me, the starting point is 'How does this horse move themself across the ground, within the realms of how their body and brain are created?'. The QH doesn't (to my knowledge) exhibit hypermobility so gaits will be straight and plain in comparison to those breeds who do, there won't be extravagent leg movements like with a PRE, the stride length will be shorter and quicker than that of most other breeds (except with the obvious exception of the Paso Fino), there won't be excess elevation because you'd be wasting time in the air when you want to be pushing off the ground or changing direction.

For me, the video shows a QH moving in better balance than I'd expect of the breed. She is lighter in front (not as on the forehand) as many. She does not swing her quarters excessively, and to my eyes from the angle of the video, she remains straight. She can clearly maintain balance and rhythm when she is asked to shorten.

She becomes perhaps a little wide behind at specific moments in time to compensate for the work she is being asked to do at this stage of her development, and in the first change she goes together with her hinds, then in the second she is late behind by one step. She goes a little 'pacey' when going from canter to walk - this could indicate she was tiring at this point, which is presumably why her rider stopped at this point.

Within all of this, she maintains her own balance (as does the rider), with no visible tension on the neckrope (it is loose all the time to my eyes), and without any obvious signs of conflict behaviours.

She has absolute autonomy of her whole body, all the time, and even shows that she is able to release her own tension while working - after the first change, the rider eases her out of the compression for a short while and she pricks her ears forwards and licks and chews. Yes, being compressed and doing a change led to minor compromise and tension on her part, and then it was released and gone.

Because she is not being forced to compromise herself in order to do the required work, as soon as she tires it is obvious, and the rider heeds her input in the form of the feel she gives him, and gives her a break.

How many dressage horses have the above when they are trained or competed? THAT is my point. Especially the underlined sections. It is the loss of those underlined points that lead to the point in bold above being exhibited.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Western = shutting paces down to a shuffle.

I wondered about trying senior mare (a sports horse type) in western training when I was struggling with an injured back. The western trainer told me not to as she was too good and western would ruin her naturally flamboyant paces.

She also said that the clients who come to her for western training do so because they are too scared and useless to ride English. I can’t comment on that, but that came unprompted from the horse’s mouth.

 

[HaplessHorse]

I feel frustrated that I've not been able to write any further replies since my last one, but it's been really interesting to see where the thread has gone to without steering it back to what I was getting at - it's basically developed into a debate about double and snaffle bridles at Grand Prix, as well as pulling holes in the concept of riding with a neckrope.

For me, the video shows a horse who (by genetics) has very workmanlike gaits. Quarter Horses are not flambouyantly gaited, and they were initially bred to race over only a quarter of a mile, so their whole genetic history is for quick acceleration: short strides to give more push over the same time period as a long stride, and plenty of muscle in order to do so, while spending minimal time in the air. As their stride length is shorter than some breeds in addition to having plenty of musculature, this enables them to do quick, sharp changes of direction when working cattle (or demonstrating that they could if there were cattle there), and so are used extensively for cow work, with no other breed outperforming them to my knowledge. They also excel at barrel racing.

These attributes mean that over the same distance, they will naturally do more strides than a longer-striding horse, and so in comparison could appear 'tight' or 'stiff'. I also find that many Quarter Horses are built downhill, so they're at a disadvantage there compared to warmbloods and the like too.

You just can't compare the way a QH moves to the way a warmblood moves. Or any horse bred for English disciplines really. For me, the starting point is 'How does this horse move themself across the ground, within the realms of how their body and brain are created?'. The QH doesn't (to my knowledge) exhibit hypermobility so gaits will be straight and plain in comparison to those breeds who do, there won't be extravagent leg movements like with a PRE, the stride length will be shorter and quicker than that of most other breeds (except with the obvious exception of the Paso Fino), there won't be excess elevation because you'd be wasting time in the air when you want to be pushing off the ground or changing direction.

For me, the video shows a QH moving in better balance than I'd expect of the breed. She is lighter in front (not as on the forehand) as many. She does not swing her quarters excessively, and to my eyes from the angle of the video, she remains straight. She can clearly maintain balance and rhythm when she is asked to shorten.

She becomes perhaps a little wide behind at specific moments in time to compensate for the work she is being asked to do at this stage of her development, and in the first change she goes together with her hinds, then in the second she is late behind by one step. She goes a little 'pacey' when going from canter to walk - this could indicate she was tiring at this point, which is presumably why her rider stopped at this point.

Within all of this, she maintains her own balance (as does the rider), with no visible tension on the neckrope (it is loose all the time to my eyes), and without any obvious signs of conflict behaviours.

She has absolute autonomy of her whole body, all the time, and even shows that she is able to release her own tension while working - after the first change, the rider eases her out of the compression for a short while and she pricks her ears forwards and licks and chews. Yes, being compressed and doing a change led to minor compromise and tension on her part, and then it was released and gone.

Because she is not being forced to compromise herself in order to do the required work, as soon as she tires it is obvious, and the rider heeds her input in the form of the feel she gives him, and gives her a break.

How many dressage horses have the above when they are trained or competed? THAT is my point. Especially the underlined sections. It is the loss of those underlined points that lead to the point in bold above being exhibited.

I have a cob with very workmanlike paces (which I like, I’m a happy hacker and I prioritise comfort over pretty), and she’s built quite downhill, as well as having been trained to pull onto her forehand (former driving pony). At this early stage in her (sort of re-)training, she does sometimes fall back behind the leg and onto her forehand, but I am able to get her moving forwards with more impulsion than the horse in that video.

I would argue that the horse is trying its best, and does want to do what is being asked to do correctly, but simply isn’t ready for it. I wouldn’t ask Erin to try and go that round at our current stage because she simply isn’t ready for it, and I want her to feel comfortable moving forwards correctly and smoothly before asking her to move into a nice, round frame.

For horses who aren’t built to move “correctly” things have to be done more slowly and in stages to get the best results. It’s entirely possible to have workmanlike paces, impulsion, and roundness, but it takes time.

 

[Exasperated]

I feel frustrated that I've not been able to write any further replies since my last one, but it's been really interesting to see where the thread has gone to without steering it back to what I was getting at - it's basically developed into a debate about double and snaffle bridles at Grand Prix, as well as pulling holes in the concept of riding with a neckrope.

For me, the video shows a horse who (by genetics) has very workmanlike gaits. Quarter Horses are not flambouyantly gaited, and they were initially bred to race over only a quarter of a mile, so their whole genetic history is for quick acceleration: short strides to give more push over the same time period as a long stride, and plenty of muscle in order to do so, while spending minimal time in the air. As their stride length is shorter than some breeds in addition to having plenty of musculature, this enables them to do quick, sharp changes of direction when working cattle (or demonstrating that they could if there were cattle there), and so are used extensively for cow work, with no other breed outperforming them to my knowledge. They also excel at barrel racing.

These attributes mean that over the same distance, they will naturally do more strides than a longer-striding horse, and so in comparison could appear 'tight' or 'stiff'. I also find that many Quarter Horses are built downhill, so they're at a disadvantage there compared to warmbloods and the like too.

You just can't compare the way a QH moves to the way a warmblood moves. Or any horse bred for English disciplines really. For me, the starting point is 'How does this horse move themself across the ground, within the realms of how their body and brain are created?'. The QH doesn't (to my knowledge) exhibit hypermobility so gaits will be straight and plain in comparison to those breeds who do, there won't be extravagent leg movements like with a PRE, the stride length will be shorter and quicker than that of most other breeds (except with the obvious exception of the Paso Fino), there won't be excess elevation because you'd be wasting time in the air when you want to be pushing off the ground or changing direction.

For me, the video shows a QH moving in better balance than I'd expect of the breed. She is lighter in front (not as on the forehand) as many. She does not swing her quarters excessively, and to my eyes from the angle of the video, she remains straight. She can clearly maintain balance and rhythm when she is asked to shorten.

She becomes perhaps a little wide behind at specific moments in time to compensate for the work she is being asked to do at this stage of her development, and in the first change she goes together with her hinds, then in the second she is late behind by one step. She goes a little 'pacey' when going from canter to walk - this could indicate she was tiring at this point, which is presumably why her rider stopped at this point.

Within all of this, she maintains her own balance (as does the rider), with no visible tension on the neckrope (it is loose all the time to my eyes), and without any obvious signs of conflict behaviours.

She has absolute autonomy of her whole body, all the time, and even shows that she is able to release her own tension while working - after the first change, the rider eases her out of the compression for a short while and she pricks her ears forwards and licks and chews. Yes, being compressed and doing a change led to minor compromise and tension on her part, and then it was released and gone.

Because she is not being forced to compromise herself in order to do the required work, as soon as she tires it is obvious, and the rider heeds her input in the form of the feel she gives him, and gives her a break.

How many dressage horses have the above when they are trained or competed? THAT is my point. Especially the underlined sections. It is the loss of those underlined points that lead to the point in bold above being exhibited.

Are you saying there’s such a big difference between ‘western’ riding in competition and an arena, than in their genuine working lives?
We have relatives in South America with horses (criollo and quarter, mainly) that actually do cut and drive cattle, but they don’t move like this video. If they did, the long hours some of the riders spend - usually on a very long rein, make a lot of use of neck reining and shifts of rider balance - would be intolerable.
If there’s an ethical question re the breeding of hypermobile W.B.s, probably just as relevant an ethical debate about breeding this type of quarter horse, too.
Sorry, I think it’s grim.

 

[Exasperated]

Western = shutting paces down to a shuffle.

I wondered about trying senior mare (a sports horse type) in western training when I was struggling with an injured back. The western trainer told me not to as she was too good and western would ruin her naturally flamboyant paces.

She also said that the clients who come to her for western training do so because they are too scared and useless to ride English. I can’t comment on that, but that came unprompted from the horse’s mouth.

Ha, ha! There’s better sense of security from western, Aussie, Iberian saddles with pommels, poleys, etc - perhaps she meant that?

 

[daffy44]

I have a client with two delightful quarter horses, ridden in snaffles and in an English style, and absolutely they have different conformation and a different type of movement, but they are still able to move with softness and looseness through their bodies. If they ever moved like the horse in the first video on this thread, I'd stop the lesson and advise the client to call the vet.
I'm not surprised neither change shown was correct given the lack of quality in the canter. Given my small amount of experience working with quarter horses I have seen that do not automatically move like all their legs are tied together like the horse in the video.

 

[PurpleSpots]

OK, let me try to put things across a different way. Or maybe in two ways.

1. How does the horse in the first video feel about things that are happening in the video? How can you tell?

2. Imagine if you took all the good bits of things you prioritise over certain aspects of the video, and in striving for those incorporated giving the horse almost ultimate freedom for autonomy, freedom to let go of stress, and ease of communicating difficulties during training sessions?

ETA: Before anyone takes it personally and gets huffy and says they already do to question 2, this really is aimed as showing a completely different approach to how many dressage horses (and horses in other disciplines, but specifically dressage as that's what's in the press so much at the moment) are trained. It's obvious that these aspects are not prioritised in their lives.

 

[JenJ]

None of us can tell what the horse is feeling. We are not the horse.

It looks like it feels uncomfortable though.

I appreciate you started this thread with good intentions, but I think that video may be a poor example of what you are trying to communicate.

 

[Exasperated]

I have a client with two delightful quarter horses, ridden in snaffles and in an English style, and absolutely they have different conformation and a different type of movement, but they are still able to move with softness and looseness through their bodies. If they ever moved like the horse in the first video on this thread, I'd stop the lesson and advise the client to call the vet.
I'm not surprised neither change shown was correct given the lack of quality in the canter. Given my small amount of experience working with quarter horses I have seen that do not automatically move like all their legs are tied together like the horse in the video.

Well, thank goodness for that.

None of us can tell what the horse is feeling. We are not the horse.

It looks like it feels uncomfortable though.

I appreciate you started this thread with good intentions, but I think that video may be a poor example of what you are trying to communicate.

Yep, not coalescing too well with those carefully thought out, veterinary, pain ethograms - admittedly, even more interpretations by humans.
Maybe a video of same horse in his necklace gallivanting across the prairies, actually going for a ride, somewhere?

 

[Exasperated]

OK, let me try to put things across a different way. Or maybe in two ways.

1. How does the horse in the first video feel about things that are happening in the video? How can you tell?

2. Imagine if you took all the good bits of things you prioritise over certain aspects of the video, and in striving for those incorporated giving the horse almost ultimate freedom for autonomy, freedom to let go of stress, and ease of communicating difficulties during training sessions?

ETA: Before anyone takes it personally and gets huffy and says they already do to question 2, this really is aimed as showing a completely different approach to how many dressage horses (and horses in other disciplines, but specifically dressage as that's what's in the press so much at the moment) are trained. It's obvious that these aspects are not prioritised in their lives.

As before, let’s see him doing something else in the necklace, out of the arena and really travelling and working.

 

[SpeedyPony]

The old boy is only half QH, but he is naturally a bit downhill- despite this his jog was never as stilted as the horse in the OP.
He can adjust from my seat (no bridle or with my reins dropped, depending on whether or not we're in a safe place to be bridleless!) and can go from a 'big' (for workmanlike pony legs) trot to a lovely, relaxed jog- always moving forwards though, which I assume is what the gait was originally meant for (travelling long distances with minimal effort/discomfort for both horse and rider)- the jog the horse in the OP is demonstrating looks uncomfortable for both parties.
Undoubtedly it is possible to school a horse to go well without any pressure on his head, but it is equally possible to train a horse to go incorrectly/disfunctionally without a bridle.

 

[Boulty]

I can agree that the horse in the original post isn’t showing the conflict behaviours seen in most dressage horses but I agree with a lot of other posters that I don’t think the way it’s moving looks comfortable or healthy for the horse in the long term. (I do appreciate that this kind of movement does seem to be encouraged in certain western disciplines)

I also appreciate that a QH isn’t going to have the expressive paces of a warm blood BUT the really good ones I’ve seen in person (both bridle less and in full tack) are still able to give the impression of power, ease of movement and balance. They should look calm but ready to almost instantly go in any direction at whatever speed the rider asks off an almost invisible cue whilst staying balanced and without looking laboured.

 

[paddy555]

there seem to be 2 points in this thread and I completely missed that it was about QH.
for the QH part I agree this

I can agree that the horse in the original post isn’t showing the conflict behaviours seen in most dressage horses but I agree with a lot of other posters that I don’t think the way it’s moving looks comfortable or healthy for the horse in the long term. (I do appreciate that this kind of movement does seem to be encouraged in certain western disciplines)

I also appreciate that a QH isn’t going to have the expressive paces of a warm blood BUT the really good ones I’ve seen in person (both bridle less and in full tack) are still able to give the impression of power, ease of movement and balance. They should look calm but ready to almost instantly go in any direction at whatever speed the rider asks off an almost invisible cue whilst staying balanced and without looking laboured.

Having read blue tongue in the comments I immediately thought of elite dressage horses and compared them, their hedgear, sometimes the rider abuse and the horse's pained expressions with the horse in the opening post. No comparison to me. Having ridden many times in neck ropes I had found it produces a calm, happy horse. It also produces a responsible one. A refined horse working with the rider (obviously after some training) Many of the "blue tongue' and similar don't have that look. They simply look as if they are forced to do what is required to win. I'm not suggesting GP dressage should be performed in neck rings although it would be interesting to watch some of these horses if they were put in that situation at home. Perhaps though some of the more extremes could come down by several pegs which would make dressage something nice to watch.




There was no way I could have trained my own to that standard but for us it was riding out onto the open moorland for many miles.

in the necklace, out of the arena and really travelling and working.

do I feel the disdain in our voice coming out in "necklace"