NO Confrontation required please... Seriously

[elsielouise]

Apologies for title; wasn't sure what to put to not turn everyone off as the NH thing has been 'done to death' IMO.

Buuuuuut - here's the scenario. I have a beautiful Hanovarian Cross. She's 12 and I've had her twelve years, working with loads of different trainers we've had fun but the most she has ever done is unaff ODE and Dressage and now is the time when I feel I really want a bit more focus (had family during this time, got fat, now lost weight and have bit more time).

She has hunted and is VERY strong and it messes up her flat work so if I hunt her I'll prob not get the best results BD wise (I know its a training issue but I also know my horse and with the best will in the world I don't have time to 'reschool' her after every hunt.

Soooo it's either BD or hunting and I know these are opposites but I may buy a hunter if I focus on BD.


Cutting v long story I had a Classical Dressage lesson today and loved it. I think she went the best she has gone in a LONG time. The trainer thought she had the potential for Medium at least which would be fantastic.

Then - and here's the controversy. I have a very good friend whose name I won't mention who teaches NH methods (is parelli trained) and absolutely blew me away with her horses when I last visited her (lightness, responsiveness, NO TACK).

Now, my friend has offered me free lessons in return for some help with some other stuff and TBH I am very interested to see how my horse would respond though I wont be able to have lessons on my horse for logistical reasons so would have to apply learning at home.

Hence the questions -

To what extent do you think NH methods can enable horses to compete at a good level in dressage?

Can classical methods be combined with NH or would we both just get fed up with the confusion/WILL there BE any confusion (never had NH lesson always thought they were for the 'scared to ride brigade

Do you think I could take my BD horse out hunting ever and not blow her brains if I become a NH expert? (sorry last one only because my friend is convinced her methods will enable this and I am soooooo cynical).


Anyone?

I know is long - sorry. No virtual food available am afraid. Eaten it!

Is the

 

[ladyt25]

To be perfectly honest I think you have to go with your gut instinct. I certainly think there is a lot to be said for NH - at the end of the day the basis of NH is understanding the way a horse thinks and learns. The PROBLEM is, it's be commercialised and inexperienced people think they can do x, y and z with their horse and follow it like some blooming religion and, at the end of the day the horse is the one that suffers.

I am a believer in taking snippets of advice fron various different people and, if it works for you and your horse then go for it. What i don't like is those who teach not being able to answer questions about their methods and who can't explain the reasons WHY they are doing something a certain way (if you get what I mean?). I think you should be able to question an instructor and they should be able to explain what they are doing and why.

 

[brucea]

Take out of it what works for your horse - he is the judge. I know that my horses have benefited from it - I do Parelli in a small way, and have worked with Monty, and have a good dose of plain common sense enough not to drink the cool-aid.

There's a lot to learn - you can only judge by the results. You said her horses are fab after all.

I learned a lot, and my horse finds I'm a much better rider for him than I was say 8 years ago.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Well if you can afford two horses one for each job, go for it, but watched my friend with her 13 year old cob yesterday, when she lunged and did join up with him, he went beautifully for her, only thing is she cann't ride him, in fact nobody can as he will suddenly spook at something, her niece came flying off and he mowed my friend down and galloped round the menage in a blind panic, we had to open the gate so he could go to his stable where he felt save. She's owned him since he was 15 months old.

 

[Hels_Bells]

You should post this in comp riders too, you will probably get some interesting feedback there too!

As for your question i dont know about mixing the two concepts but I do have afriend who is very successful with applying parelli but has really struggled with her horse competitively since she started doing it.

I do believe that it can be useful to use some of these practices but have to say if your horse has competitive potential you may find it is underchallenged if you do solely NH. I also know my classical instructor is not a fan of NH and would probably not be keen if I tried to mix both!!

 

[wellsat]

I would say it depends on what sort of NH you're going to do. G is very headshy so I'm having a Parelli person to help me with this but I'm confident it isn't going to affect his dressage! What do you want to get out of the NH training?

 

[missyme10]

Wow, you are indeed in a pickle!
First I will say I am no fan of Parelli, I think he is a twit and I cannot put on this forum what I think of his wife without the fat controller spanking my butt

BUT, if ur friends horses amazed u, they r doing something very right. Parellli is a joke with carrot sticks, but natural horsemanship isn't, those that understand that horses and humans r different and have different emotions, worries, alliances etc. Have got it! Those that think horses think and behave like humans most definitely haven't.

I don't know the answer to your problem, but amazing horses speak for themselves x

 

[SpottedCat]

Lessons/training is not about following a set of rules to get a desired outcome. If it were, then I could write a book, train every rider I came across to Olympic medal standard and retire rich. What it is about is getting as many different tools as possible in your box to use in different situations, and about learning when each one might be useful. On that basis I think it's always worth trying different approaches.

As for whether NH can help you hunt your horse - who knows. The worst that happens is you try, it doesn't work, you don't go again and spend a few weeks reinstilling some boundaries - not the end of the world!

 

[YorksG]

What spottedcat said!
True classical riding is based on the same principles as NH (please note not parelli!)

 

[Tinypony]

There is a skilled classical rider and trainer in Kent who is also a Silversand horsemanship associate, so the two can definitely combined, if you get the right combination. Silversand isn't Parelli though... I don't want to be accused of trying to promote anything, and would find it hard to avoid that, but you are welcome to pm me for a chat.

 

[unbalanced]

My instructor does parelli with her horses. She can ride bridleless and also competes BD medium successfully.

My goal is to be able to do dressage in a NH/classical way and if I can't do it following those principles then for me I'm not interested. We're working at a low-ish level but my horse is ok with that and we're having fun so that's fine.

I am no expert but what do you think about riders like Karen Rohlf? I have also seen videos of Phillipe Karl doing NH (parelli I think but I could be wrong) groundwork with his horses before mounting. Luis Lucio is involved with parelli and has been helping to train some of their instructors in dressage and learning NH methods from them in return.

My understanding is that NH done well and classical dressage actually have a lot in common. I believe that a good NH instructor would be able to help you and your mare to hunt happily together without your horse getting upset or overexcited by the experience and hopefully your friend is that instructor. Good luck and I hope it all works out for you

 

[Tinypony]

Personally I found Parelli to be a bit tough on the horses, which is why I tend to learn from different trainers with an "nh" style now. My friend in Kent has ridden with some classical greats, but got to the point where she was questioning some of what she had been taught. She deconstructed it, first using Parelli and then moving on (as many of us did) to other similar, but possibly less confrontational trainers. The results are just great.

Karen Rohlf is teaching clinics at the Mendip Stud now, and I think well worth a look.
http://www.dressagenaturally.net/
It looks to me as if she's taken some good from Parelli and added a whole lot of other stuff. I was planning to go and spectate for a few days but have run out of cash! I use her "moving massage" with my horses and it's brilliant.

Good nh-style training should be able to help any horse person who wants to go that route towards their goals. Dressage, hunting, hacking or whatever. I don't think you need to work your way through levels, games and tournament tasks to get there though.

 

[jeeve]

have a look at this website - mark and his wife were level 3 parelli instructors, they have taken what they learned and used it to develop a competition focus, with natural horsemanship.

www.markrodney.com.au

Debbie competes at a an advanced level in dressage and their horses are amazing re lightness, and they can ride without bridle and saddle, and so on as well

they have a training scale, some videos and other info on their approach and their website is an interesting visit

I also know of other people who were PNH instructors ( the requirements to remain a PNH instructor at one time required an annual long trip to USA and many australian instructors could not continue to leave australia.their family and businesses every year to retain their PNH instructor status) and again they have amazing horses that can perform advanced dressage with lightness and responsiveness that is astounding

If your friend is demonstrating this ability then go for it

 

[ghost&secret]

Wow, you are indeed in a pickle!
First I will say I am no fan of Parelli, I think he is a twit and I cannot put on this forum what I think of his wife without the fat controller spanking my butt

totally agree with the above !! NH IMO does not exsist however sensible kind and understanding good old fashioned horsemanship does.

It's your horse and you know your horse better than anyone - keep an open mind - go and have a play and see. As long as you keep things sensible both of you should have a fun afternoon. Just don't get brain washed !! xx

 

[Jenny_Sinn]

Perry Woods mixes NH & classical with good results. Great teacher, have seen him work wonders on parrelli horses in clinics - one hairy cob became a dressage superstar
I think he writes for one of the horsey magazines, too?

 

[Pale Rider]

Firstly, I have to say that I am a big fan of PNH, and have been studying and practising Parelli since the early 1990's.

Before that I was well into more conventional (my word) methods of training and had been all my life. At the time I started with NH I had a yard with 30+ horses. We had some horses we used in the riding school for lessons, we also bred and brought horses on for sale. I have always spent a lot of time in the saddle, both as a job and also for recreation. Just for fun, I'd take on horses for retraining after they'd had a bad start, or some other problem.

Basically, I just love everything about horses and wanted to do as much as I could for our own, I was always a bit concerned about the way a lot of horses were handled, trained, ridden and kept and was always looking at different things people were doing. Hence ending up with barefoot, NH horses.

We don't breed or sell horses now, as I only wanted them to go to NH people and there was no market, though things are changing now.

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that, not everyone who takes up Parelli knows little or nothing about horses, or doesn't ride them or any of the other common misconceptions that are trotted out.

The complaint that Parelli is expensive is also not true, the equipment is basic and costs what it costs, people spend far more on all sorts of equine related stuff. The most important thing though, is the information. Ok, it comes on DVD and you won't be an expert watching DVD's but its a fantastic way of giving out masses of information, that you can keep and watch as many times as you like. Just add up what a few hours riding lessons cost, what you learn from it, what you remember, thats expensive.

A lot of people just don't like the Parelli's, 'so what' you don't have to live with them, dress like them or even grow a moustache. People focus on the wrong things, like green balls, pedestals and carrot sticks. To do this is doing yourself a dis service, it's not just 'common sense' either, I wish it were, but sense isn't common, it's rare. Parelli does't claim to have invented anything, he always acknowledges his mentors, and appears to be kind to people who, after reaching quite high levels within the program go off to do their own thing.

There are a lot of detractors of Parelli, many post on this forum and can be quite vitriolic in their posts, but there are many more people who will offer help and support to anyone wanting to get involved with Parelli Natural Horsemanship, or NH in general.

In essence there is a lot of information easily available from Parelli, there are lots of high level students who can help and lots of Parelli trainers about who can sort out any problems or sticky patches. People no longer have to rely on the opinions of other horse owners yard owners, or trainers who perpetuate poor, limited or detrimental information.

Best of all though, get it right and the horses love it.

 

[aimeetb]

Lessons/training is not about following a set of rules to get a desired outcome. If it were, then I could write a book, train every rider I came across to Olympic medal standard and retire rich. What it is about is getting as many different tools as possible in your box to use in different situations, and about learning when each one might be useful. On that basis I think it's always worth trying different approaches.
QUOTE]

Exactly SpottedCat!!

I dont like Parelli (the people and their methods) from what I have seen but some of the NH thinking makes sense but i think the problems arise when people stick to things as someone else said like a religion even when its clearly not working, just take the bits that work from each discipline and as said above have a tool for every job! xxxx

 

[Natch]

I'll apologise now because I haven't read the rest of the thread: I thought it would be useful not to, and to just answer the OP.

To what extent do you think NH methods can enable horses to compete at a good level in dressage?
I think it can help you to have a brilliant, two way listening partnership.For the purposes you are talking, I think you'd have to take what bits of each you are most happy with and combine them in a unique program for your mare - which is what I think is the best way to train any horse, regardless of who you have learnt from.

Can classical methods be combined with NH or would we both just get fed up with the confusion/WILL there BE any confusion (never had NH lesson always thought they were for the 'scared to ride brigade

Its all pressure and release. Beginning Classical and beginning NH will have quite a lot that can't be done simultaneously. Whether or not you could train one way one day and the other the next - I don't actually see why not, they have the same goals, and mainly the same principals, just different methods. I combine NH ground and ridden work with what is loosely called dressage training (I compete up to Novice) as well as other stuff like long reining; all I can recommend is give it a go.

Do you think I could take my BD horse out hunting ever and not blow her brains if I become a NH expert? (sorry last one only because my friend is convinced her methods will enable this and I am soooooo cynical).

Ummm... you're the one who knows your horse best. I haven't ever come across a horse who I can't do a bit of everything with without blowing their brains, regardless of method of training, so I'm not much use here. Common sense to me would dictate vary her day to day regime as much as possible, and on the next schooling session after a hunt just carry on and EXPECT as normal. There's a lot to be said for self-fulfiling prophecies.

Anyone?

I know is long - sorry. No virtual food available am afraid. Eaten it!

Edited to say; have read other posts and seem to be saying the same as most others

 

[team barney]

Classical Dressage any day of the week.

Parelli methods aren't kind to horses and create a dullness and lethargy in movement that good classical training never creates. Parelli is domination based, good classical dressage is partnership based, the choice is a no brainer in my opinion. It all comes down to whether you want an expressive partner or a robot.

Competition result are different from judge to judge, some seem to like stiffness, others excessive movement, but a good judge will be looking for a quiet rider and an expressive light horse which is the aim of classical dressage.

 

[Archangel]

In your shoes I would carry on with the classical lessons and also take up the offer of free lessons on the other horse. All my horses are trained classically and I will continue to do so, but that does not stop me watching the way other people do things and picking useful bits and pieces to apply to my own horses (as well as noticing things that I will never ever do under any circumstances). You won't go wrong with a good classical dressage trainer and an open mind

 

[Booboos]

I don't think that you can rely on all trainers who call themselves "classical" to offer you the same training and the same (if not more so) with NH, so it is impossible to know in advance what they will advise you to do. Why not forget about the labels, go to both and if you like both continue with both? Plenty of people go to more than one trainers without a problem. If they do end up giving you contradictory advice then chose the one you like best!

 

[elsielouise]

Thank you all for your input here. It's an interesting consideration, in terms of whether one method is better than another in relation to producing a competitive advantage.

I need to investigate further I think and will have a 'dabble' initially in both approaches. It's unlikely to have any detrimental effects and a person on the ground whose opinion you value is always useful right?

I think what I will do following talking about this at home and with my lovely husband's birthday present of a weekly Classical lesson; is to have some more lessons as yesterday, and then also have some NH lessons as and when and apply the relevant bits.

It makes absolute sense I think, particularly since I wont be having the NH lessons on my horse so I can lift bits as I see fit.

Lovely husband though eh? A lesson a week... could never make my budget do that at the moment.

Thanks everyone, will get some pictures at our next lesson if I can

 

[Rhandir]

Yoy may like to take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRZBiOY1FGc I'ts a vid of event rider Alex Hua Tien having his first go at Western ... and being very surprised at what he found.

 

[Shilasdair]

Only you can decide whether to have Parelli lessons, or Classical lessons.
I will say, however, that I once had the misfortune to see Linda Parelli 'doing dressage' and would rather kill myself than ride like that.
Seriously.
S

 

[Marydoll]

Only you can decide whether to have Parelli lessons, or Classical lessons.
I will say, however, that I once had the misfortune to see Linda Parelli 'doing dressage' and would rather kill myself than ride like that.
Seriously.
S

Sorry it must be the day for it, but this is the third post thats had me pmsl on this forum today

 

[Pale Rider]

I don't think that you would have a problem combining Parelli with Classical Dressage.

Our current project is a good example I feel. Dutch import owned and kept by Dressage Trainer. Un managable in the extreme, bucks, rears, bites, kicks, barges, freaks out in the school. 10 yr old. All behavioural, nothing physically wrong. Tack fits like a glove.

Last chance saloon with us in October 2010, massive financial loss to the Trainer.

Started competing again, placed 1st time out.

Very satisfying.

 

[Tinypony]

Hence the questions -

To what extent do you think NH methods can enable horses to compete at a good level in dressage?

Can classical methods be combined with NH or would we both just get fed up with the confusion/WILL there BE any confusion (never had NH lesson always thought they were for the 'scared to ride brigade

Do you think I could take my BD horse out hunting ever and not blow her brains if I become a NH expert? (sorry last one only because my friend is convinced her methods will enable this and I am soooooo cynical).


Anyone?

I know is long - sorry. No virtual food available am afraid. Eaten it!

Is the

I thought Op was asking about nh-style training, rather than Parelli? Op, if you're asking about Parelli working alongside classical then personally I'd suggest Karen Rohlf and nobody else. Although she's Parelli trained the work she does now is rather different to the stuff that, for example, Linda Parelli teaches.

If you are interested in looking a bit wider at people who fall under this flaming "nh" label, then yes, there are definitely people who use that sort of approach who wouldn't interfere with your classical-style work at all. Similarly, depending on your horse, they might be able to help you with not blowing your horse's brains when out hunting. I suppose the word of caution I would have is that you would possibly need to be prepared to take some steps backwards before progressing forwards again. That's what I observe time and time again anyway.

For a competetive dressage rider who wants to be more classical, then I think Perry Wood would be very good, have seen him several times now and he teaches what you need to get out there and win some stuff.