"No martingale and a simple snaffle bridle"

I think you need to look at the whole picture and see whats going on. looking at the world cup today the majority of martingales were adjusted so that they did not have an effect unless the horse had its head up to the point where you would not be happy approaching a big fence or combination safely and there were some horses (I am well aware not all) that had their mouths open slightly with the flash on. in the main riders were quiet with their hands which was also mentioned upon by the commentators so while in a perfect world horses would all go in a simple snaffle you ned to look at the amount of precision needed to have the horse arrive at a big fence on a good stride in a small arena with the crowd very close. A lot of jumpers will be schooled at home in a snaffle and have a different bit for the ring and the winner of the world cup was on some sort of plastic bit which is normally considered a simple bit. you could look on the bad side of things and say that if someone on here posted that their horse had its mouth open and head up at times and went the way his did the advice could easily be that they should reschool the horse or its not comfortable or its in pain and needs its teeth/saddle/back checked or a vet workup :D :D
 
I don't think flashes and curb bits are a new thing judging by:

https://www.facebook.com/AnnouncerFrankWaters

In all honesty I couldn't imagine riding one side of any of those 6 and 7 figure value horses, with such power, in a situation where a mis stride is costing literally £1000s (and these are professionals, though the money from actually competing is only one of the incomes, it's not just a bonus, it is their living).

I wonder how many of them school in different tack at home/over smaller courses/grids/working on flat work? I genuinely have no idea

PS a lot of the martingales appeared to be elastic and none were all that short that I noticed?
 
DanceswithCows said:
Well I guess the interest in tack on others' horses is all about whether the horse IS comfortable? :S

I'm not a fan of a jointed bit meself - most seem to see a snaffle as the kindest bit but I think a straight one with a bit of room for the tongue like a mullen is kindest, without any kind of shank obvs. That joint digging into the roof of your mouth and the squeezing action doesn't strike me as particularly kind.

But, I am a massive fan of Luca because he is making a start on cutting down on the gadgetry and concentrating on training and controlling the *brain* of the animal IMO. Most of his horses I believe are 2nd hand 'problem horses' so it's great to see them competing in just a snaffle and saddle regardless!
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I read an interview with Luca, I think he has a wonderful attitude and ethos, I think most if not all of his horses are 'troubled' if not unrideable which I think makes his achievements all the more astonishing. Traditional or conventional he definitely is not he certainly cheers me up ��
 
Coming at it from the perspective of a total novice, I watched it and thought, is that really an eggbutt? And no martingale? I thought it was great. I too start from the absolute minimum and work up. I've had 4 horses and none of them has ever worn a martingale. My very strong cob as a baby would get anxious and flap her bottom lip so much that the flapping alone would make her more anxious so I put a flash on for a couple of months. I've now taken it off and she's fine. I totally understand that I'm just a novice happy hacker and my horses have different needs from others but I do wonder whether a greater amount of tack has become standard compared to "my day" when flashes and martingales were only used for a reason and not as a default.
 
SpringArising said:
Absolutely agree. Can't believe how common gadgets are amongst the 'professionals'.

I was so rooting for him to go clear!
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that man has certainly made an impression! first time i saw him was olympia last year doing the puissance on his little mare, I love his attitude, his relationship with his horses and i cant help but smile when i watch him :D
 
I have no problems with a properly fitted running martingale tbh. what I like about Luca is that he often lets the horse decide-sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but he always apparently takes it with good grace. there seems to be a lot of trust there and its good to see. if thats sustainable at that level for him then great.

as for complicated gadgets-they aren't new-get yourselves down to Sandon Saddlery before it closes, they have examples of gadgets and bits dating back before the war and earlier. One rather impressive gag type thing was 'for those blasted cobs that set their necks and tank off with you in the field' as well as some bizarre, ancient nosebands. Complete fallacy that everything used to be ridden in snaffles IME, when I was wee in the 70s kimblewicks and pelhams were used all the time, its just the fashions that change.
 
I hate, hate, hate martingales, so when i had the chance with an unspoilt (if opinionated) New Forest I decided he would be as un-gageted as possible. Even did something I never thought I would do, and took his nose band off (stops him tossing his head).

I found it so frustrating trying to find a plain old neck strap when my confidence was low without having to buy the martingale that goes with it!
 
I'm not a fan of unnecessary tack, I don't think anyone is. I can only make that judgement call for my own horses or horses I have ridden though.

I've never jumped around the Olympia tracks, however I used to regularly ride a horse who had, and I think his gadgetry was justified. It is fine and well being opposed to anything more complex than a snaffle, but personally I would rather see something in a stronger bit, being ridden effectively, than something in a snaffle out of control. A jointed snaffle can be as dangerous as anything else in the wrong hands.

I don't know how much of it is "training" either. I can imagine that those kind of environments are quite far removed from your average venue, and that might be quite daunting for a horse. As long as the horse is happy and healthy I'm not overly bothered about what it is wearing as long as it is well ridden,
 
Serianas said:
I hate, hate, hate martingales, so when i had the chance with an unspoilt (if opinionated) New Forest I decided he would be as un-gageted as possible. Even did something I never thought I would do, and took his nose band off (stops him tossing his head).
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I genuinely do not understand why when it should only come into play if the horse chucks its head about? None of mine are ridden in nosebands, all are ridden in whatever bit suits them (all french link snaffles although I had a peewee bit on one). I like to get young horses hacking out asap, a well fitted running martingale is purely there for safety-one of my horses wore one and the youngster I backed this year went without. I expect the other youngster next year will wear one at least for a while.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I genuinely do not understand why when it should only come into play if the horse chucks its head about? None of mine are ridden in nosebands, all are ridden in whatever bit suits them (all french link snaffles although I had a peewee bit on one). I like to get young horses hacking out asap, a well fitted running martingale is purely there for safety-one of my horses wore one and the youngster I backed this year went without. I expect the other youngster next year will wear one at least for a while.
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Because in this instance there was a root cause which I think should be investigated first. I would have hated to martingale without first discovering the noseband wasnt right for him..
 
Hmmm...Since we are living in a world where we have more choice in tack etc why don't we make use of it? Each horse is different and particularly at the top level (where every little change will have an effect) why does it matter if someone thinks their horse prefers or jumps better in a grackle? I fear that we risk cutting our nose off to spite our face just so we can say "our horse goes in a snaffle and no martingale, aren't we correct?".
 
when I was younger I think I just used the tack everyone else used and were more experienced than me and recommended. I didn't question it. I kept my pony in the tack she came with- a flash noseband, martingale and french link snaffle and also a full set of brushing boots. I always thought the idea of a flash is horrible so I did it up really loose, then one day I just thought 'why am I actually using this stuff?' I downsized all my tack, ditched the martingale etc. Today I ride bitless and don't bother with the boots either. I wish I had just done what I wanted years ago, but it is hard to 'branch off' when everyone around you is telling you different.
 
I try my hardest to de-gadget any horse I ride, within reason.
My gelding came to me in a running martingale and a gag, which after 2 rides changed to no martingale and a hanging cheek (soon to be loose ring snaffle, when I start riding him again).

There has been one pony, however, that you couldn't pay me to ride without a martingale in the show ring. No amount of schooling made him any better, as soon as he got in the ring his ears would shoot up your nose and you'd be best moving your head to the side when he jumped, otherwise he was likely to get you in the face if you didn't sit up..pretty much AS you were going over the jump.

In a martingale, he was fine. Still excitable and very bouncy, but you no longer had to avoid his neck colliding with your nose nor his ears up your nose.
 
ruth83 said:
I am not a big fan of flash nosebands and the vast majority of my clients who started their lessons in one commented on an almost immediate improvement without it. They have a place for some horses, though a drop is preferable for me as they don't squash the cheek against the pre-molars.

I once heard Tim Stockdale say of martingales 'It's like a seat belt in a car - you don't put it on because you're GOING to crash, you put it on IN CASE you crash'. A running martingale should do nothing until a horse raises its head above the angle of control, as such it should only work when needed. I suppose when you're coming to a 1.60m oxer, if your horse suddenly decides to raise its head, a bit of help is appreciated! I'm not suggesting everyone puts one on, but if correctly adjusted, there are far worse things!!
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^^ this. i hate flashes, if i can do without a noseband, i will

however, my last lad went perfectly in a link snaffle, kinnerton noseband and running martingale. i could also ride and school bareback in a headcollar, (and often did) and when hacking I have a loose contact, light contact through the legs and spend most of the time neck reining.

the kinnerton and martingale were merely there in case we had a problem. he was soft mouthed, and i liked it that way!
the martingale was mainly for hacking, if only because the 2 times i deliberately left it off, the little sod KNEW, and whilst i COULD still stop him, it took more strength than i would have without the martingale-- so i decided i would rather the martingale, than wreck his mouth!

basically, my point is, i try my damnedest to find the right combination for my horses, but if I do have something stronger, its a preventive rather than a lazy- easier than schooling- choice, and most of the time it wont come into effect on the horse until i need it, simply because of the way i ride.

my new one is sharp, and super sensitive in her mouth, so im looking to find a softer/better bit for her (shes in the french link atm) BUT i will need the martingale, i think, as she throws her head when she is upset and is VERY much a wuss, but i will judge it as i go along- if she doesnt need one, all the better. ive a feeling she'll go brilliantly in my hackamore though :)
 
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I can't remember the last time I used a martingale, I'm generally not a fan.
That said, I have both running and standing in my kit boxes and they would be used as required.
Generally I would opt for a loose standing first, as I hate hate hate the feel of a running on the reins/contact.
 
Red-1 said:
I don't have any competition photos to use as they are all pro shots and not allowed on HHO, but mine was de-gadgeted about 2 years ago and has not looked back since.
Here is a schooling photo...
1K9A6708_edited-1_zps1fddb3de.jpg


It is not that he is not a sharp horse, he came as a problem horse who would rear and spin, and when I tried him he was in a long shank combination bridle, rope nose band, elastic standing martingale, drop noseband, running martingale and draw reins over the top


I'm really not surprised he was a "Problem" (although I think probably more a 'horse with problems' than a 'problem horse') Helooks a very happy and obliging lad in the photo, though.
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I think until you are the rider jumping a Grand Prix track on each individual horse in question - then I think it can be very unfair to comment on the choice of bit/tack. I just seriously doubt these top level riders make these decisions on a whim - I know everyone is talking about training/management etc but I think of everyone they have the money/backing and experience to make the right decisions for their horses - they have probably tried various things before arriving at the thing that works for that horse. The OP said its a shame its not the norm rather than the exception but dont forget these horses are not the norm - they are the exception, not every horse has the talent or scope to jump a track that big in that atmosphere & behave the way these exceptional horses do.

I think its all well and good to criticise from the sidelines & talk about experiences we have with our horses but every horse, every rider and every skillset is completely different.
 
Red-1 said:
I don't have any competition photos to use as they are all pro shots and not allowed on HHO, but mine was de-gadgeted about 2 years ago and has not looked back since.
Here is a schooling photo...
1K9A6708_edited-1_zps1fddb3de.jpg


It is not that he is not a sharp horse, he came as a problem horse who would rear and spin, and when I tried him he was in a long shank combination bridle, rope nose band, elastic standing martingale, drop noseband, running martingale and draw reins over the top.

I am only competing him up to BE100 and 1.05 SJ, but that is because of my back not because of him. He is generally very steady and obliging now. He is in a snaffle, loose cavasson because we have to, no martingale, just a neck strap.

If he ever does get a bit of a flashback to his previous behaviour then I go to the neckstrap to ride, as I find this does not lead to rearing. I find that with Jay less is more.
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Fantastic - amazing what these horses put up with and then, when we take all the weird and wonderful gadgets off and we have to actually find a sympathetic long term solution and they reward us by going nicely just because they trust us!!
 
LegOn said:
I think until you are the rider jumping a Grand Prix track on each individual horse in question - then I think it can be very unfair to comment on the choice of bit/tack. I just seriously doubt these top level riders make these decisions on a whim - I know everyone is talking about training/management etc but I think of everyone they have the money/backing and experience to make the right decisions for their horses - they have probably tried various things before arriving at the thing that works for that horse. The OP said its a shame its not the norm rather than the exception but dont forget these horses are not the norm - they are the exception, not every horse has the talent or scope to jump a track that big in that atmosphere & behave the way these exceptional horses do.

I think its all well and good to criticise from the sidelines & talk about experiences we have with our horses but every horse, every rider and every skillset is completely different.
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This^^
Although I do agree I hate to see everything bitted up to the max but can't see the problem with a correctly fitted and used running martingale?? The problem with horses is there's so many different ways and opinions that someone is always going to do something that someone else dosent agree with. If it's not a tack debate it's a rug thickness debate.
 
My Mum was a groom for a professional showjumper in the 80's and he used to turn up with various gadgets for Mum to put on his horses because they were "fashionable".

She said the amounts of times she asked what they were and how to fit them to be told "No idea, just put it on the horse." was unbelievable.

He was a very talented horseman, just a bit too swayed by fashion. I get the feeling a lot of current showjumpers have the same attitude.
 
our driving ponies are ridden in liverpool bits but that's only cause the RDA think they have to use them. They could be ridden in plain snaffles they have lovely sensitive mouths.
 
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