No more Rolkur? Has Anky finally got it?

Vizslak said:
*dons tin hat* I seem to be doing that a lot lately!
I'm not sure what the issue is with that video?? Would someone explain to me why some horses warming up at a reining comp has got everyone throwing their hands up?!
Click to expand...
you have the tin hat ..... they are living in a gold fish bowl and are useing these tabloid style well edited videos to form their opinions........!!!!!!
 
Vizslak said:
*dons tin hat* I seem to be doing that a lot lately!
I'm not sure what the issue is with that video?? Would someone explain to me why some horses warming up at a reining comp has got everyone throwing their hands up?!
Click to expand...

I was wondering this but then I know nothing about reining and the worst I saw was that the palomino was perhaps looking a bit dejected but couldn't see yanking on reins?
It didn't look bad to me and I don't know enough about this, although the last video put up (in the other thread) did look severe but I don't see much in this one. Perhaps circling too much but...?
 
There are horses being hyper-flexed in the video. The smallest yank on the rein in a curb bit like that is extremely severe because of the leverage action.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bOqhYC_WMGY

Video starts with rider running a horse at a wall to sharpen up the slide stop. Not comfortable to see the way the horse throws it's head at the end, but watch for the jabbing afterwards. That's to remind the horse to maintain the head carriage.

Second person does slide stop - look at the horse's mouth - in that bit there is a huge amount of pressure going on. Then - jab, jab.

The pally ridden by Anky's trainer. Jab, jab, spin, jab, spin, jab. Look at the way that horse stands at the end. I would not want one of my horses to look like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en_90D5TOKA&feature=player_embedded

Starts with hyperflexion, the thing that many get agitated about in rolkur. That jabbing effing hurts. Bad enough with the sort of bit most of us ride in, but in a curb bit it's vile. Think about the action of that bit. Another horse passes through in extreme flexion.

Then the slide stop, rewarded by jab, jab... The principle behind this training is that he is building up a memory based on pain. So the horse knows what is coming and will respond faster and faster to try to avoid it. Jab jab to remind the horse to keep it's head down. That extreme head carriage is trained, it's not natural for quarter horses to carry themselves like that. This extreme emphasis of a natural physical trait reminds me of what happens to the walking horses.

I won't criticise anyone here. I'd just ask if you would be happy to see your own much loved horses ridden like this?
 
a) because it's a warm-up arena and not really long enough for fast slide stops.
b) to "sharpen up" the horses responses.
 
Viz, pass me that tin hat please.

It seems to me that many welfare problems (which are not caused by a simple lack of knowledge), from the transportation of horses to slaughter through to the unkind treatment of some high performance horses, start when the horse itself becomes secondary to the money, or the prestige, or the shiny prizes. Once the horse comes second, it seems to me that only trouble can follow.
 
Nope sorry, still not getting it, I think you need to fully understand the discipline before you make cries of oh poor horses being abused. To me those horses are doing their job. The pally is stood like that cos its tired, its just physically exerted itself spinning requires a great deal of effort. Its got its head low because its trained not to stand there with its head in the air gawping into the distance, which perhaps makes you think it looks more dejected?! And I dont agree those horses are being 'jabbed' in the mouth. They are being corrected and reminded yes but those are light aids with loose reins, can you see the curb being yanked horizontally? No you cant. And I'm not seeing any true hyperflexion either, yep a few moments of dropping behind and curling up a bit but they by no means have their heads pinned to their chests and again, its fairly momentarily, they are not being ridden behind for 5, 10 or 15 mins at a time.
 
Just to add this is in response to the first vid, not the Schmersal video, I'm not commenting on that as I do think he is a little excessive in those videos with his use of aids BUT you have to remember these are edited videos made to be sensationalist and also, we dont know the horse, an awful lot of reiners of this ilk are extremely highly strung and very hard to ride, the bits of correction he is doing may well be entirely neccessary and strung together in a clip to make it look like a constant way of riding it does look a bit harsh. I will concede that he seems a bit too heavy handed though but I really do hate these sensationalist videos about anything or any discipline, people should be more aware that watching an edited video does not give them a real representation of something.
 
Tinypony said:
That extreme head carriage is trained, it's not natural for quarter horses to carry themselves like that. This extreme emphasis of a natural physical trait reminds me of what happens to the walking horses.

I won't criticise anyone here. I'd just ask if you would be happy to see your own much loved horses ridden like this?
Click to expand...

Have you seen quarter horses running and playing in a field? They run with their heads low, it is a natural frame for them, of course ridden the frame is adapted on but thats the same as saying I'm cruel to my horse dressage training him and riding him soft, round and through because he doesnt run round the field quite like that. Quarter horses are built downhill and are on their forehand naturally.
No I wouldnt want to see my horse ridden like that cos he isnt a quarter horse and would find it near on impossible to go like that. If he was and I was into reining then no I wouldnt have a problem with him being ridden like the horses in the first video. All competitive reiners are ridden like that, I'm not understanding peoples issue with the first video at all.
 
Vizslack you must be blind.. I can clearly see some severe yanks and horses hyper flexed.. no matter what discipline this is not only incorrect but cruel and abusive..

Reining like any other discipline doesn't have to be abusive .. Riding a horse behind the vertical is just plain wrong.. causes damage to nuchal ligament all it does is FORCE the horse in to submission by disabling its perception .. you might as well use a stun gun as hyperfexion to achieve submission and obedience.

Stuff your tin hat I have my heart on my sleave
 
Where are the horses hyperflexed in the first video? I did say my comments were about the first video? The second man? For what 2 seconds? He's corrected the horse that right royally stuffed its movement up and its responded by dropping behind the bit momentarily, it then goes immediately back to its normal frame on a loose rein.
 
Last edited:
Zuzan said:
Vizslack you must be blind.. I can clearly see some severe yanks and horses hyper flexed.. no matter what discipline this is not only incorrect but cruel and abusive..

Reining like any other discipline doesn't have to be abusive .. Riding a horse behind the vertical is just plain wrong.. causes damage to nuchal ligament all it does is FORCE the horse in to submission by disabling its perception .. you might as well use a stun gun as hyperfexion to achieve submission and obedience.

Stuff your tin hat I have my heart on my sleave
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the above.

I have to say that my own QH's do not have a naturally high head carrage, but neither is it abnormally low as you see in some of the vids, having said that we don't train ours to carry themselves like that.

As far as Anky goes I think that she will never change, If someone can coldly treat their horses in the manner she does, the health and wellbeing of her horses is obviously very low down in her priorities. I also feel that she would use any cheat to give herself an advantage in whichever sphere she participates in and would rather do this than behave decently and correctly and put in the proper work to achieve success.

Frankly I am disgusted by the woman.
 
Seriously? Everybody can see horse abuse in the first video where I cannot?? Christ, I must be blind then. I shall give up and concede to you all that I am indeed blind. Carry on being as sensationalist as you like it doesnt bother me, I doubt its bothering the reiners in question either.
 
Vizslak said:
Nope sorry, still not getting it, I think you need to fully understand the discipline before you make cries of oh poor horses being abused. To me those horses are doing their job. The pally is stood like that cos its tired, its just physically exerted itself spinning requires a great deal of effort. Its got its head low because its trained not to stand there with its head in the air gawping into the distance, which perhaps makes you think it looks more dejected?! And I dont agree those horses are being 'jabbed' in the mouth. They are being corrected and reminded yes but those are light aids with loose reins, can you see the curb being yanked horizontally? No you cant. And I'm not seeing any true hyperflexion either, yep a few moments of dropping behind and curling up a bit but they by no means have their heads pinned to their chests and again, its fairly momentarily, they are not being ridden behind for 5, 10 or 15 mins at a time.
Click to expand...

I think this demonstates how easy it is for us to somehow decide that a "discipline" needs to be understood before you can somehow react to what we see with our own two eyes. That tends to be the justification "Oh, if you were expert enough to truly understand you'd realise you are a horse-hugging amateur who doesn't know what you are talking about". Sometimes, to get some perspective, show these videos to people who just care about animals, but who know nothing about horses. My boyfriend is a car mechanic, show him these clips and his reaction is "what the *******???".

I agree that these videos are a bit sensationalist. However, I don't react by thinking that somehow justifies what is shown as it was only for a short period of time. I think it gives us a worrying glimpse into the life these horses lead. If the riders are prepared to do this in public, what the heck do they do at home?

Oh, and never assume on an internet forum that someone doesn't have some useful knowledge or experience. I think most of us know the "definition" of the word assume...
 
Tinypony said:
I think this demonstates how easy it is for us to somehow decide that a "discipline" needs to be understood before you can somehow react to what we see with our own two eyes. That tends to be the justification "Oh, if you were expert enough to truly understand you'd realise you are a horse-hugging amateur who doesn't know what you are talking about". Sometimes, to get some perspective, show these videos to people who just care about animals, but who know nothing about horses. My boyfriend is a car mechanic, show him these clips and his reaction is "what the *******???".

I agree that these videos are a bit sensationalist. However, I don't react by thinking that somehow justifies what is shown as it was only for a short period of time. I think it gives us a worrying glimpse into the life these horses lead. If the riders are prepared to do this in public, what the heck do they do at home?

Oh, and never assume on an internet forum that someone doesn't have some useful knowledge or experience. I think most of us know the "definition" of the word assume...
Click to expand...


^^SPOT ON ^^
 
My trainer is an ex S Australia reining champion, we've had plenty of conversations about how some of the horses are trained, and how it can be done differently. I'm also very conversant with the action of these bits, as I'm very involved in vaquero horsemanship. Oh, and I've observed plenty of beautifully bred quarter horses at liberty in their fields.
 
Vizslak said:
Seriously? Everybody can see horse abuse in the first video where I cannot?? Christ, I must be blind then. I shall give up and concede to you all that I am indeed blind. Carry on being as sensationalist as you like it doesnt bother me, I doubt its bothering the reiners in question either.
Click to expand...

Well if this is any help http://thequestforequipoise.blogspot.com/2011/06/1949-overbent.html it does illustrate how we generally have changed our perceptions about being behind the vertical ... never mind hyper flexion
 
I don't think the Schmersal video is sensationalist at all. It just shows him breaking the FEI's rules, which specify that you should not jab a horse in the mouth. He doesn't do it by accident. He does it very coolly and deliberately, and seemingly for no reason at all. What is he teaching the horse when it's just standing there and he's yanking away?
 
Calculating with 1:10 yields 66 punds of force (lbf) on each rein, which creates a pull of 132lbf on each bar of the mouth. If the mouth of the horse doesn't yield to the pressure, a force of up to 1,323lbf occurs at the occipital bone (poll) approximately 10times the amount acting on the bars! Draw Reins mutiply this force.
 
trickivicki said:
at the start of the video- why are galloping at the walls? i really dont understand!
Click to expand...

It's nothing to do with the arena being too small blah blah - 'fencing' (as is called the technique of riding a horse end wall to end wall, and letting the wall stop the horse, not the rider with hand or 'whoa' command) is a technique which tests:
a) the ability of a horse to turn square off of the original perimeter wall (not lean left not right, but guide perfectly between the reins)
b) the ability of the horse to 'wait' on the rider's command before accelerating through the gears
c) the ability of the horse to run straight and continue in the requested 'gear' until the wall stops the horse naturally.
Horses by nature do not run straight nor at a continued speed (or gearing), this needs to be trained, fencing is the reiners' technique to get there.
The horse will stop naturally at the wall - if it starts to back off eg 12 feet out, the rider will generally use leg to drive the horse forward, and reward it when it stops at the wall. The wall is the 'nice place to be'. This is because all reiners who have shown quite a few times know that the stop/rollback and/or stop/back-up happen between 1/2 and 3/4 of the way down the show pen, so it is easy for a horse to learn to anticipate and 'scotch' a stop.
No-one but no-one actually wants to ride their horse into a wall!!
 
Vizslak said:
Nope sorry, still not getting it, I think you need to fully understand the discipline before you make cries of oh poor horses being abused. To me those horses are doing their job. The pally is stood like that cos its tired, its just physically exerted itself spinning requires a great deal of effort. Its got its head low because its trained not to stand there with its head in the air gawping into the distance, which perhaps makes you think it looks more dejected?! And I dont agree those horses are being 'jabbed' in the mouth. They are being corrected and reminded yes but those are light aids with loose reins, can you see the curb being yanked horizontally? No you cant. And I'm not seeing any true hyperflexion either, yep a few moments of dropping behind and curling up a bit but they by no means have their heads pinned to their chests and again, its fairly momentarily, they are not being ridden behind for 5, 10 or 15 mins at a time.
Click to expand...

I have to say, Vizsla,k I agree with you on the Brady Chex horse - what Rieky Young appears to be doing is setting her horse up into the absolutely correct body shape for a right-handed spin, yes she is bumping his nose around because you want the horse to be looking slightly into the turn, but there is always a release there and at no point in the actual turnarounds is the horse's nose behind the vertical, his body weight is well shifted back into his pivot hind and he has the correct body positioning throughout. There is reasonable cadence in the spin sequence. As for the number of spins: again, reiners are very 'programmed' that when they go into the show pen they are asked to produce no more than 4 - 4 1/4 spins to the left or the right; therefore that makes it very easy for a horse to learn quickly to shut down and/or lose its body position or drive from spin 3. The spins in this video are not fast or arduous for a correctly conformed and trained horse at that speed; to spin several more times than 4 in training and in the show pen itself under warm-up conditions helps break the assumption of the horse that after 4 rotations it will stop.
 
NiknKia said:
OMG from one hell house topic to another!!! That poor palominos face was just so dejected and broken, mde me so angry.

Anky sure can pick them, :mad:
Click to expand...

So agree with you.....the palomino looked totally disorientated and stressed, if I'd ben there in person I think I'd have thumped the bl***y rider, and I'm not prone to thumping people.
 
I was going to post a carefully edited video for people to make sweeping genralasations about but i couden't get the link to work !!!anway it was a load of horses and with riders they were dressed like riot police and the horses had white grease on there front legs and they set off one at a time to ride the horses flat out through a wood they crashed and slithered over these huge obsticals and into ponds hanging on to the reins there was a look of fear in the horses eyes and the riders ploughed on I dont know much about it I think its called eventing but it just looks like abuse to me .......
 
Last edited:
perfect11s said:
I was going to post a carefully edited video for people to make sweeping genralasations about but i couden't get the link to work !!!anway it was a load of horses and with riders they were dressed like riot police and the horses had white grease on there front legs and they set off one at a time to ride the horses flat out through a wood they crashed and slithered over these huge obsticals and into ponds hanging on to the reins there was a look of fear in the horses eyes and the riders ploughed on I dont know much about it I think its called eventing but it just looks like abuse to me .......
Click to expand...

I can sssure you my comments/opinions on the said video are not 'sweeping generalisations' I can tell the difference between good riding/horsemanship and that bloody exscuse for a rider, who just wants to win the prizes, and also while we're on the subject, I can't stand the way all 'western' type blokes are too bloody big for their horses, put them on a good 16.2" thoroughbred and they would p***s themselves.
 
Rouletterose said:
I can sssure you my comments/opinions on the said video are not 'sweeping generalisations' I can tell the difference between good riding/horsemanship and that bloody exscuse for a rider, who just wants to win the prizes, and also while we're on the subject, I can't stand the way all 'western' type blokes are too bloody big for their horses, put them on a good 16.2" thoroughbred and they would p***s themselves.
Click to expand...


Thats an interesting assumption, I always think that most folk are riding horses that are far too big for them. LOL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top