No more vaccinations ..

[MurphysMinder]

for Buffy. Some of you may remember that my GSD had real problems after her booster in February 2007, resulting in an immune related polyarthritis. She was unwell for quite a while but thankfully made a full recovery. I had a lot of discussion with the vets regarding future boosters. I took her yesterday when Evie had her 2nd jab as I knew I had to make a decision. My vets recommendation was not to have her done at all (I had originally been considering just a lepto booster). His reasoning was that at nearly 8, she has been fully vaccinated through her life so far which should give her good cover, and although living where we do lepto could be a risk, it is a treatable condition and the risks of the booster are greater.
It is quite refreshing not having a vet trying to make money by pushing a vaccine regardless, I will just now be neurotic everytime I thin she shows any signs of being unwell

 

[Foxfolly]

All our older dogs aren't vaccinated and fingers crossed no problems so far!!
Our border terrier and labrador have been unvaccinated for the last 4 years both were 10 this year and they had no problems. The lab was working up until 2 years ago other than that neither dog went off the farm (The shoot was on our farm and surrounding land anyway)
We'll probably leave the Rotti and GSD this time round too, both are 7/8 next year and been vacc. regularly all their life.

 

[k9h]

It's better to risk a vaccine reaction than subject my dog to these deadly killer diseases.

Wrong: Firstly, very few of the classic canine diseases are deadly. Parvovirus is only generally deadly to puppies and, as maternal antibody can be present for as many as 22 weeks, and as maternal antibody cancels out the vaccine, vaccinated puppies are unlikely to be protected from parvovirus. Adult dogs rarely die from parvovirus.

Distemper kills only half of affected dogs. Indeed, dogs most susceptible to disease are those who are fed poor quality processed foods. A dog fed a natural diet, containing 'real' food, with a consequently strong immune system, is most able to combat viral challenges. Also, please be aware that there is an alternative to a highly risky vaccine - this is discussed later. My two two-year-old dogs have never been vaccinated, have received the homoeopathic alternative, and have tested positive for antibodies to both distemper and parvovirus. Both are extremely healthy.

Clinical signs of hepatitis and parainfluenza range from mild and invisible to death (the flu rarely kills; hepatitis can be caused by a range of factors, including poor diet, parasites, bacteria, fungus, chemicals and drugs, and the vaccine doesn't protect against all of the other dangers).

Secondly, no one knows how common these diseases are. No one records his or her existence. Leptospirosis, for example, is extremely rare (apart from which, leptospirosis is a range of over a hundred bacterins; the chances of the strain in the needle matching the strain in the field are remote; and the vaccine only confers protection for between three and six months, leaving vaccinated dogs 'unprotected' for up to nine months anyway).


Vaccines have also been known to cause the diseases they were designed to prevent. This happens when a vaccine is injected into an animal with a suppressed immune system (as explained earlier.); or when the vaccine manufacturer fails to render the viral component of the vaccine harmless in the lab. In the latter instance, the vaccine is withdrawn after it has killed 'more dogs than normally expected' (in the words of one vaccine manufacturer as it withdrew its vaccine).

Canine Health Concern's vaccine survey indicated that at least one in every hundred dogs is damaged by vaccines. As no one has any reliable statistics to suggest otherwise, it should be up to vets and vaccine manufacturers to prove vaccines are safe and not the other way round. We whose dogs have died or suffered chronic debilitating diseases shouldn't have to take their word for it when the vaccine manufacturers deny responsibility. Our concerns should be taken seriously, and not strenuously denied in the face of overwhelming evidence.


Parvovirus - yes, parvovirus was created by vaccines. This disease didn't exist prior to the 1970s. In fact, scientists tell us it was created by vaccine manufacturers who cultured the distemper vaccine on cat kidneys that were infected with feline enteritis. This cat-enteritis-diseased distemper vaccine was then injected into dogs around the world, and parvovirus reared its ugly head around the world at the same time. A naturally occurring epidemic would spread slowly across continents. Parvovirus appeared in line with multi-national vaccine company distribution policies.


Vaccines have eradicated epidemics.

Wrong: Vaccine manufacturers like to claim this. But research shows that vaccines are generally introduced after the disease has died out: diseases die out after 67% of a population has been exposed to it. The smallpox vaccine is often quoted as having eradicated smallpox. In fact, scientists stopped using it when they finally admitted that it was causing too many side effects. Only then did the disease die out.

There are strong arguments to suggest that vaccines keep diseases in the ecosystem. For example, the only cause of polio in the USA today is the vaccine itself. (You can get polio if you change the nappy of a baby who has recently been vaccinated against polio.)

Vaccines also shed into the environment, so a vaccinated or unvaccinated dog or cat can contract a disease from the urine and faeces of a vaccinated dog or cat.

 

[Patches]

QR -

So am I being foolish for having a booster done every year on my almost 13 year old Cocker Spaniel, who never leaves our farm? (Although very occasionally other dogs may be walked over our land on the public footpaths)

 

[MurphysMinder]

I hve to admit I usually stop vaccinating at about 11 years. It was just nice to have a vet agree that they built up immunity over the years, although in Buffy's case it was a case of lesser of 2 evils. I will though continue to have the younger dogs done until they at least reach late middle age.

 

[ann-jen]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong: Firstly, very few of the classic canine diseases are deadly. Parvovirus is only generally deadly to puppies and, as maternal antibody can be present for as many as 22 weeks, and as maternal antibody cancels out the vaccine, vaccinated puppies are unlikely to be protected from parvovirus. Adult dogs rarely die from parvovirus.

[/ QUOTE ]
For puppies to benefit from maternal antibodies the mother will either have to have been vaccinated or been in recent exposure to parvovirus in order for her to have mounted an immune response. If the mother is unvaccinated then the pups get no protection from her colostrum. Although maternal antibodies may persist up to 20wk the majority have declined by 8-10 weeks which is why we recommend pups to receive their first vaccination at this point and it is followed up by a 2nd injection 2-6 weeks later to make sure they are adequately covered. I agree parvo is more often fatal in puppies than in adults but believe me working in an area that is rife with parvo and having to deal with the council stray kennels a large number of adults die from it too.
[ QUOTE ]
Distemper kills only half of affected dogs. Indeed, dogs most susceptible to disease are those who are fed poor quality processed foods. A dog fed a natural diet, containing 'real' food, with a consequently strong immune system, is most able to combat viral challenges. Also, please be aware that there is an alternative to a highly risky vaccine - this is discussed later. My two two-year-old dogs have never been vaccinated, have received the homoeopathic alternative, and have tested positive for antibodies to both distemper and parvovirus. Both are extremely healthy

[/ QUOTE ]
Distemper is thankfully no longer as prevalent as it once was. I know of no clinical trials that suggest dogs fed commercial pet food are any more susceptible than those fed a fresh meat diet. I agree those fed on a substandard diet probably have a weaker immune system than those fed a balanced diet but it is possible to feed a good quality diet either on commercial based foods or natural. We will definitely have to agree to differ on the efficacy of homeopathic vaccinations.
[ QUOTE ]
Clinical signs of hepatitis and parainfluenza range from mild and invisible to death (the flu rarely kills; hepatitis can be caused by a range of factors, including poor diet, parasites, bacteria, fungus, chemicals and drugs, and the vaccine doesn't protect against all of the other dangers).


[/ QUOTE ]
You are talking about hepatitis in a very generalised way here - which yes can be caused by all the things you have mentioned. Hepatitis just means inflammation of the liver. Vaccines only protect against one specific type - which is Canine Infectious Hepatitis and caused by a virus. Parainfluenza probably isnt going to be fatal in most cases but it does have a massive impact on the canine community and spreads through kennels like wildfire. Again this is rife in the area I work in along with Bordatella infections. I see proabaly 4-5 coughing dogs a day. Mainly because of the close proximity of the council kennels and the large number of unvaccinated dogs that are held there. It costs the council a huge amount of money to treat these dogs and so I suppose there is an economic consideration as well. They are currently in talks as to whether it would be cheaper to vaccinate all the strays that come in rather than treating them when they subsequently get parvo/KC etc. Influenza isn't normally fatal in horses either but look at the chaos the outbreak in Australia caused.
[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, no one knows how common these diseases are. No one records his or her existence. Leptospirosis, for example, is extremely rare (apart from which, leptospirosis is a range of over a hundred bacterins; the chances of the strain in the needle matching the strain in the field are remote; and the vaccine only confers protection for between three and six months, leaving vaccinated dogs 'unprotected' for up to nine months anyway).


[/ QUOTE ]
I would disagree about how common Lepto is - I generally see about 3-4 cases a year and while that is small compared to the number of parvo cases its still a significant number. There is less long-lived immunity to Lepto I do agree which is why it is vital to keep up vaccinations yearly and not to let them lapse specifically for lepto. The vaccine contains the 2 strains that cause most significant disease in dogs L. canicola and L. ictohaemorrhagiae. Why would we want to vaccinate against the strains that aren't virulant in dogs?
[ QUOTE ]
Vaccines have also been known to cause the diseases they were designed to prevent. This happens when a vaccine is injected into an animal with a suppressed immune system (as explained earlier.); or when the vaccine manufacturer fails to render the viral component of the vaccine harmless in the lab. In the latter instance, the vaccine is withdrawn after it has killed 'more dogs than normally expected' (in the words of one vaccine manufacturer as it withdrew its vaccine

[/ QUOTE ]
Most vaccines are either dead forms of the virus or live attenuated - which means it has been modified to no longer cause clinical signs of disease. Occasionally the animal might be a bit off colour following vaccination but normally it has no ill effects. I certainly vaccinate my own dogs annually and have never noticed any ill affects (they are also fed on commercial pet food

) Although I 'm sure all vaccines were initially animal tested and like all drugs had to pass stringent testing - I can safely say the vaccines I handle and use on a daily basis are extremely safe - and in 15 years I've failed to kill and animal with its vaccine! I can only think of about 3 cases during that time that have had genuine vaccine reactions. I agree that vaccinating an animal with a compromised immune system isn't a good idea which is why most vets will carry out a health examination before administering the vaccine. This yearly MOT is also a good time for detecting any other problems that might be brewing - I can think of many times when I've found tumours on examination that the owners were unaware of and we've managed to remove them before they have caused illness or had potentially fatal consequences.
[ QUOTE ]
Canine Health Concern's vaccine survey indicated that at least one in every hundred dogs is damaged by vaccines. As no one has any reliable statistics to suggest otherwise, it should be up to vets and vaccine manufacturers to prove vaccines are safe and not the other way round. We whose dogs have died or suffered chronic debilitating diseases shouldn't have to take their word for it when the vaccine manufacturers deny responsibility. Our concerns should be taken seriously, and not strenuously denied in the face of overwhelming evidence.


[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect the Canine Health Councils statistics may be flawed and not a genuine representation of the canine population. It is certainly not my experience as I've already said that 1 in 100 dogs have adverse affects to vaccines. The only way to test efficacy of vaccinations is to have 2 populations of dogs - 1 vaccinated and 1 unvaccinated and then to expose both populations to parvovirus for example and then to measure the numbers that subsequently came down with the disease. I would expect the unvaccinated population to have a much higher incidence than the vaccinated population. But who is going to sign up for such a trial? While it is quite possible that vaccines provide immunity for longer than 1 year (this is already known for distemper and hepatitis) the vaccine companies are never going to fund research that would prove otherwise and in the process lose a lot of revenue so unless someone decided to do a privately funded trial I can't see it ever happening. Personally until I see proper scientific evidence to the contrary I wouldn't be prepared to put my own dogs in a situation where I wasn't sure if they were fully protected or not and so I'm not going to recommend anyone take any risks that I'm not prepared to take myself. The alternative to vaccinating annually would be to replace that with blood testing to check the immune status of the animal and I think that would be cost prohibitive in most cases.
[ QUOTE ]
Parvovirus - yes, parvovirus was created by vaccines. This disease didn't exist prior to the 1970s. In fact, scientists tell us it was created by vaccine manufacturers who cultured the distemper vaccine on cat kidneys that were infected with feline enteritis. This cat-enteritis-diseased distemper vaccine was then injected into dogs around the world, and parvovirus reared its ugly head around the world at the same time. A naturally occurring epidemic would spread slowly across continents. Parvovirus appeared in line with multi-national vaccine company distribution policies

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say I'm not sure about this statement. Its a long time since I studied microbiology

. Parvovirus is a related virus to the virus that causes enteritis in cats so its quite possible parvovirus occured due to a mutation of the cat virus I suppose. Its certainly a disease that has changed since it first appeared in the early 70's when it initially caused heart problems in young dogs but now is most typically associated with haemorrhagic diarrhoea and vomiting.
[ QUOTE ]
Vaccines have eradicated epidemics.

Wrong: Vaccine manufacturers like to claim this. But research shows that vaccines are generally introduced after the disease has died out: diseases die out after 67% of a population has been exposed to it. The smallpox vaccine is often quoted as having eradicated smallpox. In fact, scientists stopped using it when they finally admitted that it was causing too many side effects. Only then did the disease die out.

There are strong arguments to suggest that vaccines keep diseases in the ecosystem. For example, the only cause of polio in the USA today is the vaccine itself. (You can get polio if you change the nappy of a baby who has recently been vaccinated against polio.)

Vaccines also shed into the environment, so a vaccinated or unvaccinated dog or cat can contract a disease from the urine and faeces of a vaccinated dog or cat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid I also totally disagree with your final statement and would firmly agree that the reason these diseases are less prevalent is because the large proportion of the canine population is vaccinated. Having worked in more affluent areas where the uptake of routine vaccinations is much higher than my current post - all I can say is that the number of Parvo cases I see currently is much higher than when I worked there. I also disagree that it is possible to contract parvo from a vaccinated and immunocompetant animals faeces/urine and VERY possible to contract it from an unvaccinated one.
Phew - if anyones managed to read their way through that epic then well done to you! I just get fed up of people implying the vets only recommend vaccinations to make money! I am on a set salary so it makes no difference to me whether or not people do or don't. My advice is based purely on what I believe to be correct and what I believe to be best for each individual animal. I will continue to vaccinate all my animals yearly.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think your reply was aimed at K9H, but just wanted to reiterate that I am not against vaccination in general, just thought my vets opinion in Buffy's case was interesting. I remember a neighbours farm dog dying a horrible death from distemper about 40 years ago, and also was unfortunate enough to be one of the exhibitors whose dogs first contracted parvo after the SKC show in the early 1970's. We managed to save a litter of pups but 2 were left with heart muscle damage, though it didn't affect them too much. I think it is probably very true that the reduction in cases of this diseases is due to the majority of dogs being vaccinated.
Interesting you say first vaccination at 8 - 10 weeks and 2nd 2 - 6 weeks later, which is different to the timing my vets are recommending.

 

[Skhosu]

'distemper kills only half dogs affected'
50% mortality to me is something I will avoid! I am a tiny bit concerned people reading this thread will believe that no vaccinations at all are necessary for pups or adults.
Does anyone have any links to evidence/research done re: the puppies age of vaccination?

 

[ann-jen]

No my reply wasn't really aimed at you and I know we have discussed your situation before in the past and you were genuinely unlucky enough to have a dog that really did have an adverse reaction. But thankfully it is rare. I don't find your vets decision surprising at all and I think its exactly what I would have advised also. I think sometimes people forget that we are there for the dogs best interests first and foremost (I don't mean you personally here) - I've worked for bosses that have pressurised me to increase the turn over of the practice but for me the number one priority in all my advice will be the animal first, the owner second and the money a long way after that. Also we can only advise people to do certain things and its up to them whether they choose to follow that advice - it can be frustrating when people choose not to but that is their choice. Realistically we do have to make a profit at the end of the day but honestly - there aren't many vets out there where that is their only motivating factor thankfully.
Interesting that you experienced the myocardial form of parvo and I'm pleased to hear it didn't affect the dogs long term.
As far as the timing of vaccinations are concerned - it does seem to vary a lot depending on which vaccine is used. We recommend 2 doses - the first at 8 weeks and the 2nd 2wks later. The licence has just changed so we can vaccinate from 6 weeks of age but then the 2nd vac still can't be given before 10 wks of age (so 4 wks later) due to the maternal antibody thing. So there isn't any real benefit from vaccinating early in terms of getting the pups out and about but in cases where the mother was unvaccinated or of unknown health status we can give the vaccine earlier with our own discretion. The maximum period in between doses is 6 weeks but most people don't wait that long - unless they forget their appointment.....

 

[MurphysMinder]

As long as no-one thinks I am either anti-vaccination or anti-vet. I have a really good relationship with all the vets at my practice and if the vet had advised that Buffy have a vaccination I would have accepted it. Can't really have a low opinion of vets with a daughter who has just finished her 2nd year at vet university

TripleSandH - I really didn't mean to start this as an anti-vaccination thread, in my first post I say I took Buffy at the same time as my pup had her 2nd jab, I just thought the vets view point was interesting with regard to the build up of immunity.