No name on mare's passport

[Montmorency]

I'm a first time breeder and I think I've got a big problem. There is no name on my mare's passport-just bay filly. Her breeder obviously registered her before she decided on a name.

She has been competing BE, BSJA (as was) BD under her 'proper' name so it's never been an issue.

Does this mean her name won't be on the covering certificate?

I'm hoping one of you more experienced breeders will know the answer and I hope it's not the one I think I'm going to get!!

TIA

 

[whirlwindhorses]

Is it a Weatherbys passport? If it is then it will be because you have to pay to name them and its very expensive. Best thing to do would be to ring the society who has issued the covering certificate and ask them.

 

[Spring Feather]

Need a little more information. What breed/registry is the mare with? And is it a registry passport she has or just a generic one issued by one of the passport agencies?

With WBs it's not uncommon that horses aren't named on their registry passports. If she is a WB and is bred to a WB then DNA testing will be done anyway so no big deal there.

 

[Montmorency]

Thanks for the replies so far.

It is a weatherbys ntr passport. It says parentage tested- I guess this is the same as DNA tested?

She hasn't been inseminated yet. Vet scanned today and reckons next week will be the time. This led me to actually look up her details ready for filling out the details for semen ordering!

The stallion I think I've chosen (way too much choice!) is graded with a few wb studbooks so do I have to choose which one I want to issue the covering certificate?

Which brings another problem- the mare doesn't have a full 3 generation pedigree on her dam's side. I know the breeder knows who her grandparents are because she also bred the mother. And I know one of her full sisters is graded with SHB(GB) and the dam sire is listed on there database. Is there anything I can do about adding the extra details to my mares passport? Am
I right in thinking she can't get 'full' papers from anywhere without this info?

I guess since I'm not breeding to sell it doesn't really matter who the foal (if we get one!) is registered with but I'd like them to get the best that is available.

Thanks to anyone who reads this. It seems so complicated!

 

[popsdosh]

The Reason she does not have a 3 generation pedigree on the dams side is because the previous generations cannot be verified and that will still be the case so cannot be registered.
I personally would use the AES or Breeders elite to register the foal as they will both overstamp your mares passport and add a name at the same time. Both will also register stock from any graded stallion irrespective of its registration soc.You will not get full pink papers anywhere due to the dams pedigree issues.
I have been in this situation a few times however all the vet has to do on the certificate is put the mares micro chip or UELN number instead of the name . I am surprised that BE allowed her to compete with no nam,e in the passport at all.
There is nothing that you have mentioned that will cause an issue registering any offspring .I will add that there is no point getting a specific covering certificate as you will not be able to register the foal with any warmblood soc without having the mare graded into that soc. Then there will still be the pedigree issue.
AES or breeders elites the way to go!
Just to add the mares passport only needs overstamping when you apply for the foals registration as it can all be done together. Whatever you do do not put the mares name on the covering certificate unless the other info is there as it will cause problems down the line just the UELN or MC numbers would be safer.

 

[Montmorency]

Sorry for spelling mistakes! There/their. Must re-read before I post!

 

[Spring Feather]

To follow up on popsdosh's comments; I don't deal with British organisations, just German registries, so I'm not familiar with how they work. If you were to go with a German warmblood registry, your mare would have to be breeding approved by them, so she'd go to an inspection to be assessed. Without a full pedigree the foal would only get a COP (Copy of Pedigree) which, as popsdosh says, is not full pink papers, but rather a certificate confirming dam and sire. If you decide to register the foal with one of the warmblood registries then yes you can choose which one to take her/foal to. Some are more exclusive than others and from what I read on here there aren't so many wb inspections held in the UK (maybe someone could clarify?) so one of the more generic sporthorse societies may be the way to go. Yes Parentage Verified is the same as DNA tested.

 

[popsdosh]

Can I just ask how old is the mare ? I ask because wetherbys have been DNA testing for some years in which case her passp[ort would be marked' parentage tested (DNA),' however they were just marked 'Parentage tested' prior to this when they were using blood typing.

 

[Maesfen]

It's easy to get her named with Weatherbys which would make life simpler for you, just quite expensive but having looked on the site, I can't find anything for naming NTR animals so I rang them just to be nosey, lol! Same fee as registering any name at any age of £144.90! As you're usng a WB anyway there doesn't seem much point and I would just use her already discipline registered name as that is what she's known and registered as unless she has had different names for different jobs (which she shouldn't! If she does then I presume the first registered one should be what she should be registered as the dam with). Don't passports have to be stamped if they're registered with another society anyway so you should have that as proof of her name or are the disciplines different to a passport society?.
If you know the parentage of your mare, when you name the foal you should be able to fill the dam's side in anyway which the society will check out so get back to the breeder and get all the info you can of the mare's side
Just for fun!
https://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/default/files/NC2 2014.pdf

https://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/default/files/NTR Conditions of Entry 2014.pdf

 

[popsdosh]

It's easy to get her named with Weatherbys which would make life simpler for you, just quite expensive but having looked on the site, I can't find anything for naming NTR animals so I rang them just to be nosey, lol! Same fee as registering any name at any age of £144.90! As you're usng a WB anyway there doesn't seem much point and I would just use her already discipline registered name as that is what she's known and registered as unless she has had different names for different jobs (which she shouldn't! If she does then I presume the first registered one should be what she should be registered as the dam with). Don't passports have to be stamped if they're registered with another society anyway so you should have that as proof of her name or are the disciplines different to a passport society?.
If you know the parentage of your mare, when you name the foal you should be able to fill the dam's side in anyway which the society will check out so get back to the breeder and get all the info you can of the mare's side
Just for fun!
https://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/default/files/NC2 2014.pdf

https://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/default/files/NTR Conditions of Entry 2014.pdf

No passportin soc will put breeding in a foals passport that is not already verified in the mares passport ,you cannot just have it added .It is possible to do it retrospectively however all the previous generations would need to be verified by DNA and that will probably be impossible to achieve as they need to be able to supply samples and may not be traceable or alive. The mares dam must be named on the passport otherwise she would not be parentage tested. So you have two generations. .
On the name front you will need to get the mares passport overstamped by eg.AES they will then recognise your mare as that name and put in foal pedigree accordingly however they are not allowed to insert a name in the space in a wetherbys passport. They most likely however will put your chosen name in the space for other breed socs. I still cannot quite understand how she has been affiliated without a name in the passport as now it is a requirement that the names have to be the same,and officially in the passport

 

[whirlwindhorses]

I've got a mare registered with Weatherbys NTR as a broodmare, her name has VII after it and her parentage is unrecorded. Same mare is also registered partbred Arab with recorded breeding. Her son (who has GB after his name) is by a VII Anglo Arab stallion whose breeding is also unrecorded with Weatherbys but he has recorded breeding with Arab Society. Weatherbys will only record horses who are registered with them, so its possible that your mares parents breeding is registered elsewhere. It would be worth contacting SHB or whoever. If the stallion is a British Warmblood Stallion then you will recieve a covering certificate from the stallion owner to register the foal. I have a mare reg KWPN and her foal by a British Warmblood stallion is registered with British Warmblood (or whatever they are called now) and has cream/white papers because dam is not graded, mare was not registered/overstamped with them at the time either and neither mare or foal were DNA'd to register.

 

[Montmorency]

Thank you for all the replies.

Popsdosh- the mare is 16. I know it's relatively old to try for a foal but the vet says since she's sound and healthy she sees no reason not to try. She was scanned yesterday and everything looks normal and she is having regular seasons. But since she's 16, I'm pretty sure her grandparents will be dead!

Regarding the affiliated name maybe they weren't so hot on seeing passports 10/11 years ago when she was first registered? I know when I bought her and re-registered her after a break they said they didn't need to see her passport as it would have been check when she was first registered though.

Maesfen- Thanks for the info and links. I call it being inquisitive (sounds better than nosey!) If it means the difference between the mares actual name being on the certificate instead of 'bay filly' I'd happily pay £145! However if its not necessary then of course I'd rather not. And time is rather of the essence since I've left it all a bit last minute.

Whirlwindhorses- my mare's sire and dam have VII after their names too. But I know sire was shbgb graded and his side of the passport is complete. I know the dam sire was an h.i.s stallion and I believe that is what shbgb used to be so could poss get that verified somehow but the grandmother was an Irish cob so that's not going to be on any database!

So basically the general consensus is I can put my mare's posh name on the form i need to fill in to order semen?

Thanks again for all the replies

 

[popsdosh]

Be careful and put her UELN on there as well as the vet at the stud may not recognise your mare as the correct recipient as her passport has no name in it! They need to be sure its the correct horse.
Another reason not to name her with wetherbys is you most likely would not be able to use her name she has now!

 

[Maesfen]

Thank you for all the replies.


Whirlwindhorses- my mare's sire and dam have VII after their names too. But I know sire was shbgb graded and his side of the passport is complete. I know the dam sire was an h.i.s stallion and I believe that is what shbgb used to be so could poss get that verified somehow but the grandmother was an Irish cob so that's not going to be on any database!

So basically the general consensus is I can put my mare's posh name on the form i need to fill in to order semen?

Thanks again for all the replies

Yes, SHBGB used to be the HIS so that line will also be verified and will make the pedigree look not too shabby with only the very bottom line missing from the grand dam backward especially as the sires have all been graded. Do you know if your mare's dam was graded although it's probably not likely that long ago unless, like my mare, (another out of a unreg' pony ) she was awarded a Broodmare Premium from being shown.

It's good advice to use the UELN too.

 

[Montmorency]

Oh dear, I think I can feel a headache coming on!! I don't think my mare has a UELN! She has a passport number (obviously) and British Horse Database number (worthless I suspect as it is now defunct) but I can't see any others. I guess since the passport was issued in 1998 that was before UELNs were compulsory.

Popsdosh- mare is being ai'd at home so I'll make sure vet gets the right horse!!

Maesfen- I don't think her Dam was graded. I searched the shbgb mare listings and her full sister is there but not Mum. Mum could have been on results alone i think- she was advanced eventer and has had 2 offspring go advanced too. Although come to think of it the sire wasn't listed either and I KNOW he was graded. Maybe they take them off lists if they've died? I'll def give them a ring today.

Basically can I sort all these things out in the time between (hopefully) conception and birth or does it have to be before insemination- in which case we'll miss yet another cycle. I thought I'd be so organised this year too!

 

[popsdosh]

Passport number will be UELN and yes the rest can be sorted between ,but as I suggested as long as you have a covering certificate with the mares passport number on and not just a name you can do everything when you register the foal.

 

[Montmorency]

Ok great. Thank you.

 

[sywell]

I think most people accept that verified breeding means DNA parentage testing but in the past verified could mean the registry accepted the breeders word. I would like to clarify a number of comments there are two types of horses registered horses and horses for food and production. To be a registered horse you must comply with the Annex II
Certificat d'origine Certificate of Origin
(1)
Nom:
Name:
(2)
Nom commercial:
Commercial name:
(3)
Race:
Breed:
(4)
Classe dans le livre généalogique:
Studbook class:
(5)
Père génétique:
Genetic sire:
(5)(a)
Grand-père:
Grandsire:
(6)
Mère génétique:
Genetic dam:
(6)(a)
Grand-père:
Grandsire:
(7)
Lieu de naissance:
Place of birth:
Note:
Pedigree (si indiqué sur page additionnelle)
Pedigree (if appropriate on additional page)
(8)
Naisseur(s):
Breeder(s):
(9)
Certificat d‘origine validé le:
par:
Certificate of origin validated on:
by:
(10)(a)
Nom de l‘instance émetteur:
Name of the issuing body:
(10)(b)
Adresse:
Address:
(10)(c)
N° de téléphone:
Telephone number:
(10)(d)
N° de télécopie /e-mail:
Fax-number /e-mail:
(10)(e)
Cachet:
Stamp:
(10)(f)
Signature: (nom en lettres capitales et qualité du signataire)
Signature: (Name in capital letters and capacity of signatory)
Note for the issuing body [not to be printed in identification document]: Layout variations from this model are permitted, provided

If this cannot be completed then it is not a registered horse.
It is common practice in Germany to give the horse a name when it comes forward for grading and that is the breed society name which remans on its pedigree documents. When a horse competes and is registered with the FN as a competition horse a different name can be used. As stallions are approved by many breeding organisations you will have a choice but it is best to use the society that has graded the mare and approved the stallion.