No post on Totilas?

dianchi said:
Yep withdrawn,

Hardly surprising the backlash and losing possible Stud fee's

Clearly not done by the rider, as he continued to claim that he was right.

Retirement to stud i would say is on the cards................
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And at the risk of ridicule, in my opinion there are much better stallions available. His movement is not correct and never has been.
 
SpringArising said:
Bearing in mind that depends very much on your own definitions of ideals.
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No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, as some of the more radical animal rights groups found out when they tried to prosecute Totilas' owners some time ago. Horses are kept in many different ways, both in the UK and in other countries, and by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I wouldn't keep a horse that way, but I don't agree that he is being abused. The fact that the rider can't seem to understand his scores is concerning/amusing, and I wish that they would just admit defeat and retire the poor thing to stud. Be careful what you wish for (or pay really obscene amounts for); poisoned chalice for the rider, that's for sure..............
 
Cortez said:
No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I don't agree that he is being abused
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I think there is an element of abuse for anything that's locked up for the majority of its life.
 
I believe that EG has previously stated when he had Totilas that he couldn't be turned out. He certainly is not the only top competition horse that doesn't get turnout. Doesn't mean I like it.
 
Cortez said:
On one level I agree, and my own horses are not kept like that, but probably the majority of high level competition horses ARE kept stabled. There is a great deal more to the success of Carl Hester's horses than simply their occasional turnout (they are not turned out every day, or for very long), and there is no proof that results are better one way or the other. As an extremely well regarded horse in a professional setup you can be assured that Totilas receives the very best of care on all levels, but it is obvious that he is not level in competition, be that due to stress, less than competant riding, physical impairment or whatever. Turning him out and hacking won't fix that..................
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Turning him out and hacking him now won't help. This horse (and I am sure most high level competition horses) are not kept in a way that I would keep a horse.

As for Carl's horses not being turned out every day... Doesn't Barney live out? Or he did for a long time but maybe doesn't now.

As a teenager I worked for a high level dressage rider, who trained with Carl. Both of her high level horses were turned out every day and we're both wonderful to hack (by me and other staff). All her youngsters were turned out every day and were hacked and jumped. Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows.

Fwiw (and my opinion is next to unimportant) I don't like the way Undercover goes either. Full of tension and looking ready to explode at any point. (Although his extended walk was pretty relaxed yesterday for him). It's not really inspiring for me to watch really.

There rant over!!!
 
Maybe, just maybe, if he had been turned out more from the beginning and allowed to move loosely and freely at liberty for at least some part of each day, he would still be sound. Ive no idea what his problems are, maybe it would make no difference at all. I do know that I feel a lot better if I am able to move around more during the day, the one day a week on which I spend all day sat at a desk is the day I feel stiffer and more achy :(
 
Or maybe he'd be lamer- it's more common to get acutely injured during turnout than during controlled exercise I think? (Discounting racing!)

We'll never know!
 
atlantis said:
Turning him out and hacking him now won't help. This horse (and I am sure most high level competition horses) are not kept in a way that I would keep a horse.

As for Carl's horses not being turned out every day... Doesn't Barney live out? Or he did for a long time but maybe doesn't now.

As a teenager I worked for a high level dressage rider, who trained with Carl. Both of her high level horses were turned out every day and we're both wonderful to hack (by me and other staff). All her youngsters were turned out every day and were hacked and jumped. Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows.

Fwiw (and my opinion is next to unimportant) I don't like the way Undercover goes either. Full of tension and looking ready to explode at any point. (Although his extended walk was pretty relaxed yesterday for him). It's not really inspiring for me to watch really.

There rant over!!!
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When I saw Undercover at the Olympics I could not see how EG could influence him the tension was incredible ( he had not had him long at that time ) it was a master class in nursing a very tense horse through a test .
EG has a talent for working with this type of very very hot horse .
 
Cortez said:
No, it is catagorised quite succinctly by various welfare organisations and European law, as some of the more radical animal rights groups found out when they tried to prosecute Totilas' owners some time ago. Horses are kept in many different ways, both in the UK and in other countries, and by no definition could Totilas be said to be poorly managed. I wouldn't keep a horse that way, but I don't agree that he is being abused. The fact that the rider can't seem to understand his scores is concerning/amusing, and I wish that they would just admit defeat and retire the poor thing to stud. Be careful what you wish for (or pay really obscene amounts for); poisoned chalice for the rider, that's for sure..............
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By animal keepers of pretty much any other large species, it wouldn't be deemed acceptable. Keeping a large animal in a holding box or a herd animal isolated would be pretty frowned upon. But for some reason that logic doesn't apply to horses. I am with SpringArising that it is cruel. Just because something is legal, or widely practised, doesn't make it right. But this is a discussion for another thread :p

I really do feel sorry for Rath (well, I would if he didn't have pots of money and wonderful horses ;)) because the public was against him from the start, presumably due to the whole 'buying success' thing. His riding has come on a lot, and I for one wouldn't fancy sitting on that horse. I doubt many people could ride one side of him! And after spending that amount of money I can also see why they are reluctant to acknowledge his issues. Again, they need to man up and get it sorted, or bow out gracefully, but I imagine this experience hasn't been easy.

Wouldn't it be fascinating if he could go to Carl and Charlotte?
 
atlantis said:
Some people do keep their top level horses that way, and peoples points on here are that things might have been different for Totilas had he ended up in the hands of someone different. Less injuries, less tension and stress, who knows.QUOTE]

Edward Gal probably knows ;-)

I couldn't understand all the anticipation of the Valegro/Totilas showdown. It couldn't happen IMO.

Still, I very much enjoyed Gal's test on Glock's Undercover.
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Goldenstar said:
When I saw Undercover at the Olympics I could not see how EG could influence him the tension was incredible ( he had not had him long at that time ) it was a master class in nursing a very tense horse through a test .
EG has a talent for working with this type of very very hot horse .
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Oh I totally agree. I am very envious of Gal's position, core strength and he has amazing control over these horses. I'm not sure many others could ride these horses at all. Although maybe if they lived out as youngsters they wouldn't be as tense. One wonders whether if the management of these horses was different they'd be more relaxed. Nobody knows as you're not able to bring the horse up twice and compare!!!

Still don't enjoy watching him though. Charlotte makes dressage look enjoyable and like dancing. Gal (and undercover) reminds me of a marching army. Very precise but not much freedom or suppleness!!
 
Edward Gal probably knows ;-)

I couldn't understand all the anticipation of the Valegro/Totilas showdown. It couldn't happen IMO.

Still, I very much enjoyed Gal's test on Glock's Undercover.[/QUOTE]

I often wonder if these top riders ever read these musings of us mere mortals on these forums!!!

Although I am aware of my limitations which is why I bought a nice calm Connie lol!!!

His test yesterday was by far the best test undercover has done that I've seen in a championship.
 
Surely the nub of the problem is that whilst judges continue to reward horses that are presented like this then the training methods etc will continue. Totilus, who to many reasonably knowledgeable people (and not so knowledgeable, that's me!) on this forum appeared lame behind but was still given marks of over 81% by 2 judges including the British one. What on earth does this say about the quality of judging? I think I'll take the old TB out, he'd do a lovely test if you ignore the arthritis in his hocks!
 
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oldie48 said:
Surely the nub of the problem is that whilst judges continue to reward horses that are presented like this then the training methods etc will continue. Totilus, who to many reasonably knowledgeable people (and not so knowledgeable, that's me!) on this forum appeared lame behind but was still given marks of over 81% by 2 judges including the British one. What on earth does this say about the quality of judging? I think I'll take the old TB out, he'd do a lovely test if you ignore the arthritis in his hocks!
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I quite agree.
 
Hasn't Totilas beaten Valegro in the past, though? Two very different horses, conformationally, movement-wise and obviously in the training, management and riding. Bit like apples and oranges. I know which one I prefer :-)
 
In the German press they are saying one of the vets did not want to pass him at the trot up, the chief official is quoted as saying she agreed for him to continue as it is not a vetting to buy the horse!!! There is alot of bad press here in Germany on the net....Think there will be alot more discussion to come..... He did not take part in any of the competitions which are normally compulsory to get in the team and therefore has not had any dope tests done...... Stinks in my opinion and I think the bell should have been rung to stop him
 
he was badly lame behind !

what worries me is that the rider didn't notice & thought he should get higher marks :|
 
I could see the uneven steps during the test, but not before he went into the arena, (from the video) so it must be something that shows up when he is being asked for more effort. As for the judges not agreeing - the old story! - they are looking from different places around the arena, so they get a different viewpoint.
 
Sorry I don't agree. There is too much difference between a 4 and an 8 and the moves where in different parts of the arena. 6 and 8, well possibly but overall 8.5% difference, I don't think so and paces 5 - 8, sufficient to good, no, we are talking about highly trained FEI judges not unlisted judges doing pony club! efore he went into the arena, (from the video) so it must be something that shows up when he is being asked for more effort. As for the judges not agreeing - the old story! - they are looking from different places around the arena, so they get a different viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
 
its just a shame for the horse, he really tried in there and he must have been uncomfortable. I know I was very sad watching him even though I have never been a fan of his trot work as the fronts are too extravagant IMO.....I also didn't enjoy Edward gals test, horse very tense in neck and behind the vertical most of the test with his chin almost touching his neck, I know even valegro can be behind the vertical but he seems more relaxed and he is never as far behind as Edwards horse....however I do think Edward is a brilliant rider but would just like the horses frame longer. cant wait for sunday afternoon and hope the no commentary option on the red button will work!!!
 
The horse IMO has never been sound when competing right from day one . I am afraid that the judges were awarding him high marks on the back of over exaggerated movement that is in no way natural,it then became difficult for judges not to award top marks as they were like a flock of sheep.
Not sure many top breeders have used him as a stallion expecting to sell at top level ,most of his offspring have been produced below top level and sold to another flock of sheep who follow the fashion created by said high marks,I predict there will be lots of buyers losing a packet on these horses in years to come.
 
What saddens me is that no one tried to stop the test when he was so obviously lame - rider, judges... No one. I understand how he got through the vetting as the lameness only became obvious into the test. At least he's been withdrawn now I suppose!

As I understand it, however, he may not be in pain. He has suffered some injuries and may simply be short behind from bad healing. Nonetheless, he should not have scored as well as he did!

Concerning horse welfare and being boxed... It's become increasingly widely accepted that keeping horses boxed is very stressful and bad for their health. There are a few different studies that show boxed horses are more anxious, several showing greater tendency to stereotypies and at least one that shows a greater incidence of injuries in horses kept traditionally boxed compared to those in a shared accommodation (like the big covered corrals they use in parts of Europe for broodmares - I forget what they are called).

We are stuck with tradition at the moment but I think it's only a matter of time before the absurdity is recognised and things start to change. You couldn't keep a Labrador in confinement like that without being reported... Imagine if you kept a Lab in a stall-sized room all alone and only let it out for 1 hour a day on a lead in a confined, uniform space while controlling its every move... You might not be doing anything illegal but you'd sure as hell get an earful. And that's a small animal...That you can do so with an animal as big and sociable as a horse is outrageous in my opinion.

If you scaled things accordingly so the dog was in a kennel just big enough to turn around... Well then perhaps we are actually venturing into illegal territory (I would hope!). Certainly unacceptable territory in most peoples' eyes...
 
He doesn't look uncomfortable he looks hopping lame! Shame on rath for not pulling up and shame on the judges for not ringing the bell.

The rider had made himself look even more like an ignorant twit by bemoaning his lesser score and claiming it was a better test than another... Particularly when ps has said he was evidently lame
 
Very depressing. Mind boggling that the 7 judges allowed the test to proceed to its conclusion.

Anyone know the protocol for stopping a test when multiple judges are involved? Could any one of them have stopped it mid test, or would it be down to the most senior officiating judge?
 
Barnacle....He was lame at the trot up, not just in the test... One of the vets wanted to throw him out!, the comment from the Chief official was that "it wasn't a vetting for purchase "!! And let him pass...
 
Quite frankly apart from the lameness in both hind legs, worse in the near hind, the rider is far too heavy too. The horse has very little bone below the knee and probably up to about ten stone tops. I remember an insurer telling me years ago that she was pleased I was show jumping my horse because it was dressage horses that are paid out on most and their hind legs are the most likely to go wrong. I had always assumed jumpers to be more at risk before that. Heavy riders just make all that worse no matter how good they are supposed to be. However, I have my own views as to his competence, he certainly wouldn't be riding any of mine.
 
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