No real control.

[fburton]

I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally. You’ll notice that I have not used the word ‘respect’. While it is clear that other animals do have emotions, there is no necessary correlation between theirs and our own. Respect, trust and jealousy are all conceptual notions that may be irrelevant to animal responses to us. Even though they provide a shorthand and sometimes an amusing explanation of superficial observations, we might do well to be sceptical of them. For example, any supposed intention of an animal to humiliate its owner (‘he’s misbehaving just to show me up&#8217, is unlikely to have any relevance in horse-horse let alone horse-human relationships. Horses may appear respectful when they follow rules, trusting when humans apply them with consistency, or submissive and somehow dominated, when they have simply been trained not to assert themselves.

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/training-the-opportunist-and-the-comfort-seeker

(I personally think the notion of 'trust' is much less anthropomorphic than 'respect', but am aware that it could be misconstrued in some situations.)

 

[amandap]

I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally.

I agree, however how horses do behave (in horse/human interactions) is also dependent/variable on how the human treats them and their experiences. That complicates things from the human perspective and is why I think it's so important to try and understand how horses might view things and how they react to things as opposed to always seeing things from our human perspective.

ps. I just wanted to labour the point. lol

 

[fburton]

I think that's a good point. The ongoing challenge is to gain meaningful and practically useful insights into how horses view us, uncoloured by human cultural assumptions - or at least, not to be led too far astray by them.

 

[Fellewell]

I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally. You’ll notice that I have not used the word ‘respect’. While it is clear that other animals do have emotions, there is no necessary correlation between theirs and our own. Respect, trust and jealousy are all conceptual notions that may be irrelevant to animal responses to us. Even though they provide a shorthand and sometimes an amusing explanation of superficial observations, we might do well to be sceptical of them. For example, any supposed intention of an animal to humiliate its owner (‘he’s misbehaving just to show me up’), is unlikely to have any relevance in horse-horse let alone horse-human relationships. Horses may appear respectful when they follow rules, trusting when humans apply them with consistency, or submissive and somehow dominated, when they have simply been trained not to assert themselves.

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/training-the-opportunist-and-the-comfort-seeker

(I personally think the notion of 'trust' is much less anthropomorphic than 'respect', but am aware that it could be misconstrued in some situations.)

I love the Duke of Edinburgh, though possibly for all the wrong reasons

Do you suppose it's habitualization? We groom, feed, make them comfortable and they figure it's worth going along with our demands just for this. Particularly when they see other equines behave in similar acquiescent fashion.

When mine get bolshy I simply remind them that they haven't seen a sabre-tooth tiger in all the time they've lived with me. That makes them think

 

[TrasaM]

Just a thought; I share a horse, ex racer, and his owner has another TB who's a little older and not that well behaved when being handled from the ground. Today we went to get the two from their field and for some reason they swapped us around' ie my chap went to owner and wily old fox chose to come to me. As soon as we got out of the paddock he swooped down on the first bit of grass he found dragging me with him. He does this because he can and has been allowed to do it not because the lead rope was too long or too short. Personally i prefer longer ones btw. My boy on the other hand leads very well because I've made a point of teaching him to lead nicely.

 

[DanceswithCows]

Do you suppose it's habitualization? We groom, feed, make them comfortable and they figure it's worth going along with our demands just for this. Particularly when they see other equines behave in similar acquiescent fashion.

Of course, that's why they ended up domesticated - they thought the trade a good one, and it paid off, so the genes got replicated.

 

[Fellewell]

Of course, that's why they ended up domesticated - they thought the trade a good one, and it paid off, so the genes got replicated.

Trade-offs and interdependency. I wonder if they view us with any affection at all?
Looking at that description it could be a social scientists description of human married life in the 1950s.

 

[DanceswithCows]

Trade-offs and interdependency. I wonder if they view us with any affection at all?
Looking at that description it could be a social scientists description of human married life in the 1950s.

Personally, I think it can happen. I know I feel affectionate towards certain individual animals, but then can slaughter others! I think it works the other way round too, but some people need to get real - not every horse will be in love with you. I know my two don't view me with any kind of affection!

 

[sarahann1]

Wow, this is still going? *shakes head and toodles off to look a happy threads*

 

[amandap]

I think trying to decide if horses love us is fraught with big problems. We can't even decide what love between humans means half the time. lol

I think sticking to words like trust, as fburton suggested, is much safer personally.

 

[Fellewell]

Personally, I think it can happen. I know I feel affectionate towards certain individual animals, but then can slaughter others! I think it works the other way round too, but some people need to get real - not every horse will be in love with you. I know my two don't view me with any kind of affection!

Yes, perhaps affection is too strong a word to use. Interdependency is a far more realistic description of what's really going on between humans and equines IMO.

 

[DanceswithCows]

I think trying to decide if horses love us is fraught with big problems. We can't even decide what love between humans means half the time. lol

I think sticking to words like trust, as fburton suggested, is much safer personally.

Meh, I dunno, I think we fall over ourselves to separate us from animals and 'animals don't feel this and can't feel that and we don't really know' but when you work with them everyday I think it gives you an idea. Not a scientifically prove-able idea, but I'm not really concerned about proving anything to the science community

 

[amandap]

Meh, I dunno, I think we fall over ourselves to separate us from animals and 'animals don't feel this and can't feel that and we don't really know' but when you work with them everyday I think it gives you an idea. Not a scientifically prove-able idea, but I'm not really concerned about proving anything to the science community

We can't totally separate ourselves from animals, we are animals.

I do believe horses feel emotion and affection and we can build good and affectionate relationships with them.

I think putting feelings on to horses in respect of our interactions with them can stop us from asking why they behave in certain ways towards us. For eg. a grumpy manner, pulls faces, threatens to bite etc. they just become a grumpy horse and there's no reason to ask why, they're just like that. If they're 'just like that' we have little option but to deal with them harshly in many cases it seems.

Hope I haven't dropped myself in doo doo.

 

[YorksG]

Rather than calling the response love, trust etc, as if they exists as autonomous feelings, look at it in terms of attachment theory, attachment forms the platform on which love and trust can be built. May be rubbish, but it works for me! (all social animals have need for attachment, the types of attachment may vary from species to species)

 

[amandap]

Rather than calling the response love, trust etc, as if they exists as autonomous feelings, look at it in terms of attachment theory, attachment forms the platform on which love and trust can be built. May be rubbish, but it works for me! (all social animals have need for attachment, the types of attachment may vary from species to species)

I'm no scientist and don't know about attachment theory but I like the sound of that.