No Supplements.....No shoes

I think sometimes the question is if grass restriction/stabling 18 h a day enables a lame horse to become sound and stay comfortable is it such a bad thing? Especially if shoeing and allowing free access to grass doesn't
 
Before this spirals out of control -

I keep my horses BF. My horses get unrestricted turnout in the summer and day turnout in winter.

If I needed to restrict grass - I would try night turnout (so they'd come in at 10am and go out at 18.00) - that is 8 hours and it is the normal routine for many horses around the country - shod or not.

Wherever the 18 hours came up - I do not know.

I think trying to turn this thread into a bunfight by being snarky and taking things out of context serves to make certain posters look foolish and mean spirited.
 
The 18 hours did come up from the OP, re the new routine.

we x-posted rhino sorry! am not an echo promise :p
 
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Fair enough - but I still think it's rude to be snarky.

It's the OP's choice to manage her horse as she feels fit - shod or not.
 
The mention of the limited turnout was one of the reasons I mentioned about my lad going out at night, another option to consider if the op didn't want to have her horse in 18 hours a day.

Strangely enough I think some like being in that long, my youngster will pull like a train to come in whenever you bring her but goes out as slowly as she possibly can. Given the choice she'll stay in her box! My boy of course would rather be out but will tolerate staying in during the day when there's lots to see on the yard. I don't think anyone can automatically assume somebody else's horse doesn't like their routine, sorry.
 
Of course you don't have to stable the horse just to restrict the intake of the wrong sort of grass, re seeding and a more considered approach to fertilizing. A track system and areas of hard standing, are a couple of solutions. Being aware of the margin for tolerance to sugars of your horse and not feeding additional sugar in hard feed helps.

I realize not everyone could do this and it's a case of trying to fit the horse to the environment rather than making an environment to suit the horse.

I suppose horses on livery suffer the worse in this regard and have to be stabled as the owners have a limited influence on what they can do.
 
bikerchickone said:
My boy of course would rather be out
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I will always remember that picture of him on his first day at Rockley - guarding his muck heap against all raiders
lol.gif
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Lol. Think I'm doomed to be remembered as the owner whose horse wanted to eat the rubbish on the heap!! He has progressed now though, he eats from the feeders like everyone else these days! :):)
 
Bikerchickone I am so pleased that you are riding him that is fantasic I remember the threads well I am so pleased for you and for him.
 
bikerchickone said:
Lol. Think I'm doomed to be remembered as the owner whose horse wanted to eat the rubbish on the heap!! He has progressed now though, he eats from the feeders like everyone else these days! :):)
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I'm afraid you are, oh well Frankie rolled on the muckheap on his first day there and then when we went back for the reunion last Sept he rolled in sheep poo.

Going back to the comment about in 18 hours a day, one of the reasons I sent mine down to Rockley despite huge hostility from everyone around us was I couldn't turn him out without him coming back in virtually non weight bearing as he kept re-injuring himself.

I wasn't prepared to keep him in 23 hours a day so I could ride for one and I was desperate to try anything no matter how unlikely it seemed at the time.

I turn out at night in the summer which is nicer as he gets out of the sun and flies. As most livery yards round here seem to turn out about 8 and catch in at 4, he also gets longer out on this routine as I put him out about 6pm
 
I have always done this for years before i had a BF horse perhaps that should be BBF in at nine thirty out at five they get worked during that time they seem to like that they are always waiting to come in.
 
Currently, the only commercial one I am aware of.

There was talk of one starting up in Scotland, but not heard much further than talk.
 
Thanks Goldenstar! Luckily for Frankie I don't think his exploits made it onto the blog the day he arrived! Unlike some lol!

I don't know of any other Rockley like places but despite my thinking the distance was a hugely big deal before Dom left, Nic is so good with them that I honestly haven't worried about him at all. Missed him yes, but never worried, so in my case I think it's been worth missing him to see him finding his hooves again. :) x
 
Just for the record my horse is out for 6 hours for now as I am waiting for forage analysis.
I would bring him in early in this weather anyway as all the horses crowd around the gate anyway. Rather in the stable then in an accident I think! I keep my horse on a yard where there are rules. The farmer shuts the fields frequently when it is wet so this is the norm for us. We are not allowed overnight turnout ever. I'm happy so is my horse despite my cruelty of putting him out 2 hours before half the yard and getting him in 3 hours earlier. Poor horse!
 
Archie73 said:
Just for the record my horse is out for 6 hours for now as I am waiting for forage analysis.
I would bring him in early in this weather anyway as all the horses crowd around the gate anyway. Rather in the stable then in an accident I think! I keep my horse on a yard where there are rules. The farmer shuts the fields frequently when it is wet so this is the norm for us. We are not allowed overnight turnout ever. I'm happy so is my horse despite my cruelty of putting him out 2 hours before half the yard and getting him in 3 hours earlier. Poor horse!
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It seems to me many (most?) yards have turnout restrictions. Don't some have to be in 24/7 over winter or in wet weather? The fields must be saved at all cost. Same with cattle over here, they are shoved into slatted sheds for months to save the fields. Then toxic slurry is sprayed on in one hit when they're turned out. :confused: Something is very wrong in animal and environmental management somewhere imo.
Liveries desperately need grass free/poor turnout as part of managing horses with grass problems. Laminitics are stuck in boxes for months on end when many would be better with movement of their own volition... :(

Great news Archie73 and well done for doing your own research and making up your own mind based on that.
 
amandap said:
It seems to me many (most?) yards have turnout restrictions. Don't some have to be in 24/7 over winter or in wet weather?
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I'm lucky in that I managed to find a yard that lets me be quite flexible about turnout and I get genuine all year turnout.

However I am on part livery during the week which means that in the winter when it gets dark around 4pm all the liveries are going to be in by then. If the fields are a good walk and there are alot of horses, they will start catching about 3pm. Same at the start of the day, it will take a while to get all the horses out to the fields.

I don't think 6 hours is unusual or ungenerous in this context.
 
Great news Archie 73, hows your boy taken to his new diet? My boy has his correct minerals now so I am hopeful this will really help his feet!
Lucy says his thin soles are his problem, but she is confident that in time his feet will come good,I think the wait will be worth it!
 
If being ushod helps the horses navicular and limiting turnout is helping with this then 6 hours is perfectly acceptable in the circumstances. Hopefully OP you will continue to see an improvement in your horse.

I would however never restrict turnout just to keep horse barefoot because i didnt want it wear shoes as my view would a horse having restricted turnout is worse for a horse than having shoes on. If the horse doesnt need shoes, its is not being done to manage a medical issue and can live as a shod horse would with 24/7 turnout etc then go for it, its certainly cheaper!
 
SplashofSoy said:
If being ushod helps the horses navicular and limiting turnout is helping with this then 6 hours is perfectly acceptable in the circumstances. Hopefully OP you will continue to see an improvement in your horse.

I would however never restrict turnout just to keep horse barefoot because i didn't want it wear shoes as my view would a horse having restricted turnout is worse for a horse than having shoes on. If the horse doesn't need shoes, its is not being done to manage a medical issue and can live as a shod horse would with 24/7 turnout etc then go for it, its certainly cheaper!
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I do wonder if having the horse standing in for 18 hours a day is defeating the objective of rehabilitating. Wouldn't the horse be better moving than risk getting stiff after so many hours of unnatural restriction ?
 
horserider said:
I do wonder if having the horse standing in for 18 hours a day is defeating the objective of rehabilitating. Wouldn't the horse be better moving than risk getting stiff after so many hours of unnatural restriction ?
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Its a difficult one, navicular is such a difficult thing to manage and each horse is different. We have one on our yard who was diagnosed with it and advice was actually PTS but it has repsonded initial rest and now functions well on reasonably hard work 1-2 hours minimum hacking or schooling every day. This would cripple others. If OP had said only 2 hours turnout to maintain barefoot then i would most definatly agree with you.

I would say you have to balance up what makes the horse suffer the least pain/discomfort such in this case unshod (restricted turnout) v greater turnout to prevent stiffness etc but with shoes. Only the OP and their vet would be able to answer this.
 
SplashofSoy said:
I would however never restrict turnout just to keep horse barefoot because i didnt want it wear shoes as my view would a horse having restricted turnout is worse for a horse than having shoes on. If the horse doesnt need shoes, its is not being done to manage a medical issue and can live as a shod horse would with 24/7 turnout etc then go for it, its certainly cheaper!
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But if your horse is reacting badly to the grass it is still reacting badly shod or barefoot.

What you notice with barefoot is the first tiny bit of footiness which warns you not all is right. You then have a choice to shoe, use boots and try and find a management routine that better suits that horse.

At least one person whose horse was rehabbed at Rockley has since found out they have cushings at 10.
The symptoms were subtle and came down to footiness in spring and autumn.

Horse is now doing very well on a low dose of pergolide but shod this could have gone on for years unspotted.
 
horserider said:
I do wonder if having the horse standing in for 18 hours a day is defeating the objective of rehabilitating. Wouldn't the horse be better moving than risk getting stiff after so many hours of unnatural restriction ?
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In livery it is often down to getting a balance that suits the individual horse. If a horse is sensitive to grass then 24/7 turnout wont help in the least unless there is grass free turnout.
 
horserider said:
I do wonder if having the horse standing in for 18 hours a day is defeating the objective of rehabilitating. Wouldn't the horse be better moving than risk getting stiff after so many hours of unnatural restriction ?
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That's why Rockley can be easier than rehabbing at home as they have grass free areas and the grass itself being high altitude moorland grass is better than the cattle grassland alot of us have on livery yards.

Movement and stimulation are key to what they do.

Having said that before he went to Rockley my vet's advice was no turnout in case of re-injury and one of his reservations was that he was going to be turned out there.

Note he has the soft tissue damage that so often shows up on MRIs of 'navicular' horses.
 
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horserider said:
I do wonder if having the horse standing in for 18 hours a day is defeating the objective of rehabilitating. Wouldn't the horse be better moving than risk getting stiff after so many hours of unnatural restriction ?
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I didn't say my horse was stood in 18 hours a day, another poster did.

He is exercised in hand daily which will increase as he is able to cope with more work. He is also given attention every evening for about 2 hours by myself, this could be anything from a groom to a good scratch or carrot streches etc.

He is not bored, in fact once once attempting to free school him i got caught up on the phone and he got so bored he jumped out the area and went back to his stable NOT the field where his friends are.

He was born and bred in captivity and to be honest I dont think he knows what he is missing, I do know that on a normal day he bounces you to the field but if its wet and windy you have to drag him out, which I do:)

My horse is stables in a rather large loose box with deep shavings to the door(about 20foot by 12foot) too so that helps.

When I bought him he had been living out for 24/7 for 5 months on good grass with 3 others, he really stressed below is a picture of him in his old home the week after they bought him in from 24/7 turnout

http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac342/sashaarchie/?action=view&current=IMG_0705.jpg

As I said at the start of this post I AM DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR MY HORSE EVEN THOUGH I KNOW I WILL GET SHOT DOWN. point proven me thinks;)
 
Archie73 said:
As I said at the start of this post I AM DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR MY HORSE EVEN THOUGH I KNOW I WILL GET SHOT DOWN. point proven me thinks
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'Shot down?'

Are people really that sensitive that any questioning of their methods (which they chose to talk about on a public forum) that they perceive it as being 'shot down?'

It's actually becoming impossible to have any sort of reasoned debate in here any more :confused:

Although I'm guessing by all the 'shouting' and 'go and look at yourself' comments in your OP you have a chip on your shoulder about the whole thing anyway.
 
I have to bully my Arab into staying out.

Some days (in winter) he will refuse to go out if he feels the weather may displease him. Point blank refuses, and I have to graze him in hand while I freeze to death :(

He decided he wanted in at night in the middle of August last year - blooming PITA :p

He is ginger too - maybe it's a ginger thing ;)
 
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