No turnout in winter - thoughts?

hopscotch bandit said:
Another thing to remember with horses that are on limited/very limited turnout as mine was. When mine was only out for 2 hours a day in a paddock she was actually not in for 22 hours. Se was outside her stable being groomed, legs washed, tacked up, ridden, rugs changed, stood in washbox whilst I mucked out her stable. So she was probably in for a max of 17 hours, which although is an awful lot and far from ideal is not the straight 22 that most would think.
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Apart from the ridden bit, all the other activities still restrict the horse's freedom of movement. Aside from the mental aspect, you have to realise that the horse has evolved to be an animal who is almost constantly roaming and grazing. Having its movement restricted by being confined to a 12 x 12 stable for long periods of time cannot be good for its circulation and digestion. Time outside the stable being tacked up, rugs changed, waiting for stable to be mucked out don't do much to counter that. If grass turnout isn't available then plenty of exercise needs to be sought in other ways - turnout in arenas or pens, walkers, hand-grazing or stabling in extra large stables or pens, suitable amounts of ridden exercise etc.
 
TGM said:
you have to realise that the horse has evolved to be an animal who is almost constantly roaming and grazing
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Well yes it did, but it has since been domesticated and adapted well to that too. I don't feel the need to live like a caveman just because my ancestors did. This discussion has become somewhat polarised....
 
I love mine being out and have super draining fields. However, before I moved the livery yard were all on heavy clay. The fields were looked after but with heavy rain continually falling the YO had no choice to close our fields for safety for horses and humans. One lady slipped in the deep mud and many horses had tendon injury's and were standing knee deep in the mud. The horses accepted it and although not idea were out 24.7 come April. Soemtimes if you live in a clay area you are very limited. The walker is defiantly your friend and getting the horse out 2 or 3 times a day to ride or have some grass. It never did my horse any harm.
 
Leandy said:
This discussion has become somewhat polarised....
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How? We’re discussing whether or not it’s acceptable to keep an animal locked in a stable with no turnout. Standing outside a stable for grooming or mucking out purposes does nothing to change the fact that the horse is not able to roam, graze or interact with others.

They may have been domesticated but that doesn’t mean one of it’s five freedoms should be denied.
 
Some people on here seem to have lost sight of the original question posted which just asked for tips on managing a stabled working horse and sought reassurance that it is a doable situation not to have turnout for a period of the year. They also seem to equate the situation of a properly managed stabled working horse with that of a welfare case locked in solitary confinement with no stimulation and no exercise thus displaying an inability to distinguish between management which in their eyes may be a little less than optimal for a few months of the year and outright cruelty. Very odd thread indeed.
 
Cortez said:
There are thousands of horses all around the world that are not turned out. If they have adequate exercise and are worked sufficiently then I don't see a problem with it, but the key words here are sufficient work.
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but it is not natural for a horse to be ridden nor to go round in endless circles on a walker. That is not their natural behaviour. They very kindly do it as we make them for our own ends. They may keep fit on it but the horse probably gets little out of it.
If horses are not turned out for at least part of the day where do they get the chance to indulge in their natural behaviour, to be part of a herd, to relate to other horses, to groom another horse, to roll, buck , charge, rear, nibble vegetation, experience the wet and the wind?
It is a horse. It needs to behave like a horse.

Some people have commented about giving them toys, likits etc etc. That may be fine if they were children having toys to play with but horses don't naturally play with toys as a substitute for behaving like a horse.
 
the trouble is in some areas yards that allow turnout in winter with no restrictions are rare. i am on the essex/suffolk border and we are on clay soil and quite a few of the yards dont allow any turnout in winter. if a horse is well exercised and otherwise looked after i think it is a bit unfair to suggest the owners are being cruel. it isnt ideal but lets look at the horses belonging to a certain section of society who are out 24/7 and allowed to starve to death. that is cruel !!!!!!! i was lucky at my last yard as YO gave 2 of us a field together and we were allowed to do as we liked but she did say if the field was trashed during the winter she couldnt offer us another...she did make up for it in the summer as we had summer fields separate from the winter ones, and our field was rested for the whole of the summer....
 
It's not particularly helpful to reduce everyone's comments to the extreme and dismiss them as a lack of understanding.

For some posters on this thread, it is acceptable to keep a horse without turnout, provided it is in "sufficient work". For other posters this is unacceptable - for them personally, for their own horses, or just in accordance with their own beliefs.

Worse things may happen at sea, but people are entitled not to like the idea of horses confined to boxes for the entire of their non-working lives, just as much as others may think it reasonable.
 
I've done a winter of no turnout. It was awful but I was duped into it with false promises of limited but still actually available turnout and an hour a day in the school. The younger horse injured himself pretty much the way we got there and would have been on box rest for most of that time anyway as it turned out. Other horse was about 19 at the time and she got walked out and varied work every day (huge indoor school thankfully, but they kept limiting and limiting use of it!). I wouldn't do it again but I wasn't going to down tools and sell my horses without trying to see it through as I didn't blimmin plan to end up in that situation! I worked really hard but got them through in one piece. There was a LOT of colicking and dangerous behaviour on that yard though.

It really wasn't good for them and the attitude of the yard in general was basically awful. Fortunately we got out of there onto the best yard I've been on else I'd have probably given up eventually.
 
JFTD-WS said:
It's not particularly helpful to reduce everyone's comments to the extreme and dismiss them as a lack of understanding.

For some posters on this thread, it is acceptable to keep a horse without turnout, provided it is in "sufficient work". For other posters this is unacceptable - for them personally, for their own horses, or just in accordance with their own beliefs.

Worse things may happen at sea, but people are entitled not to like the idea of horses confined to boxes for the entire of their non-working lives, just as much as others may think it reasonable.
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not sure if your comment was aimed at my post but even if not how are horses going to indulge in their natural behaviour if confined all day. That really is the question that I think many are unhappy about. Are they just work animals and we shouldn't care too much about if they are happy? We seem to see so many posts nowadays about horses that crib, wind suck, behave badly, won't go, won't stop , have ulcers or are simply problem horses. I don't remember 24/7 stabling in my youth but then I don't remember so many problems. Could they be connected?
 
JFTD-WS said:
It's not particularly helpful to reduce everyone's comments to the extreme and dismiss them as a lack of understanding.

For some posters on this thread, it is acceptable to keep a horse without turnout, provided it is in "sufficient work". For other posters this is unacceptable - for them personally, for their own horses, or just in accordance with their own beliefs.

Worse things may happen at sea, but people are entitled not to like the idea of horses confined to boxes for the entire of their non-working lives, just as much as others may think it reasonable.
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i dont think anyone on here is happy with no turnout in winter but they are doing the best they can for their horses and i dont think it is helpful to call them cruel, agreed it is not ideal but if there are no yards local they have no option .. i was one of the lucky ones but quite a few yards close to my old yard had a rule of no turnout in winter....
 
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paddy555, i posted earlier about our yard in the 60's having no land and therefore no turnout but we had no windsuckers,cribbers,weavers at our yard and the horses were in a good routine and were well behaved. i have seen more instances of those vices nowadays even with horses who have turnout all year round. perhaps we are feeding incorrectly and putting pour horses under more stress by competing.... who knows?
 
paddy555 said:
not sure if your comment was aimed at my post but even if not how are horses going to indulge in their natural behaviour if confined all day. That really is the question that I think many are unhappy about. Are they just work animals and we shouldn't care too much about if they are happy? We seem to see so many posts nowadays about horses that crib, wind suck, behave badly, won't go, won't stop , have ulcers or are simply problem horses. I don't remember 24/7 stabling in my youth but then I don't remember so many problems. Could they be connected?
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I have absolutely no idea how you could think my post was directed at you...

splashgirl45 said:
i dont think anyone on here is happy with no turnout in winter but they are doing the best they can for their horses and i dont think it is helpful to call them cruel, agreed it is not ideal but if there are no yards local they have no option .. i was one of the lucky ones but quite a few yards close to my old yard had a rule of no turnout in winter....
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Well there are a few posters who are happy with it, according to their posts. Indeed, there's one who says everyone who isn't a fan simply doesn't understand the difference between a worked, cared for animal and a neglected one... I don't think it's helpful to call them cruel (if the horse is in work and well cared for) either, which is, y'know, why I didn't call them cruel!

I am also on the Essex-Suffolk(-Cambs) border. I keep mine miles away, with no facilities, because I can have them out all winter (and no, not in little mud pits either - their current field is insanely nice and has no mud at all). I sympathise - it's rubbish round here and I hate it.
 
paddy555 said:
I don't remember 24/7 stabling in my youth
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I don't know when your youth was, but full-time stabling is certainly not a new idea. IME it is less common now than it was, probably because fewer horses are in full work.

I would never choose to keep a horse stabled full time now, if that was my only option livery-wise I wouldn't have a horse or would send away on grass livery. That is my choice.

I have known horses stabled full-time who seemed perfectly happy. They were in a minimum of 2-3 hours work every day and were stabled in decent sized boxes in pairs with half walls between. They had a month "holiday" turned out full-time in summer.
 
I absolutely wouldn’t do it. I’m incredibly lucky in that my yard has loads of grazing despite being a big yard with lots of horses. My horse lives out all year bar the odd night in here and there. It’s just so much better for them in every way. I’d move OP.
 
I haven't seen anyone say they are a fan of no turnout at all, ever..... I'm leaving this thread since it seems to have lost all sense of tolerance of a range of views and circumstances. Domesticated animals lead a compromised life. They provide us with a benefit of some sort in exchange for shelter, food and protection and indeed a chance at life itself. Many stabled horses are very happy and live a life fit for a king. Some do not tolerate it but in my experience that is a small minority.
 
splashgirl45 said:
i dont think anyone on here is happy with no turnout in winter but they are doing the best they can for their horses and i dont think it is helpful to call them cruel, agreed it is not ideal but if there are no yards local they have no option .. i was one of the lucky ones but quite a few yards close to my old yard had a rule of no turnout in winter....
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Exactly.
 
Lillian_paddington said:
Why would horse owners be prepared to pay, say, £100 more for the same service they could get at another yard that’s cheaper? If most yards in an area are cheap then that is what people expect to pay. I absolutely agree that we should expect to pay a fair amount for livery, and that means that many people aught to be paying more, but it is up to the yards to raise their prices. Horse owners are not going to offer to pay more than they are asked for.
I will say again that I completely agree that livery yards should not be run at a discount - my livery is 220 for DIY a month, I know some places are far cheaper but I think it is perfectly fair as that is paying for an awful lot of land to be maintained (we have a full day of turnout during winter) - but you can hardly blame owners for simply paying what they’re asked to.
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The problem is that this is the attitude that stops yard owners who would like to offer better facilities from investing in their business. People go for the cheap option then complain about the lack of facilities.

Apologies to OP - didn't intend to hijack your thread
 
baran said:
The problem is that this is the attitude that stops yard owners who would like to offer better facilities from investing in their business. People go for the cheap option then complain about the lack of facilities.

Apologies to OP - didn't intend to hijack your thread
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I think you missed my point? I said ‘why should people pay £100 more for the SAME service they could get at another yard cheaper?’. I did not say ‘why on earth would anyone pay more than the cheapest possible rate?’ because I understand perfectly well why they would, and as I explained my DIY livery rate would seem expensive to some, but I find it completely reasonable precisely because the yard has invested in a huge amount of land and a lovely arena.
 
No amount of time on a walker or ridden work can substitute the mental stimulation for horses turned out together. Turn out is about far more than just physical exercise. It's also about freedom to move and play, interact with other horses, and also graze. No amount of sufficient work on the walker or ridden can replicate that.
I moved yards because my horse's were restricted on turnout to 2/3 days a week. Nothing short of DAILY turnout is acceptable in my opinion.
 
Equine_Dream said:
No amount of time on a walker or ridden work can substitute the mental stimulation for horses turned out together. Turn out is about far more than just physical exercise. It's also about freedom to move and play, interact with other horses, and also graze. No amount of sufficient work on the walker or ridden can replicate that.
I moved yards because my horse's were restricted on turnout to 2/3 days a week. Nothing short of DAILY turnout is acceptable in my opinion.
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I completely agree with this. People saying it's fine if they are exercised enough, kept busy etc. Yes, it makes it better but do people actually think schooling in an arena for an hour each day and putting them on the walker is the same as them being turned out in a field?

I completely understand that some people don't have an option and as I said, I went along with very restricted turnout for a few months and am lucky I had the option to move. BUT I don't see how anyone can say that going on the walker, in the school, hacking etc is a substitute for turnout. The fact that horses get excited and have a play on their way to the field is evidence of this ... you don't see horses dragging their owners to the walker each morning.
 
I think the OP is doing well and if the horse can't have any turn out for a few months, it's not ideal but maybe she has not other options ?
Time, money, family and travel commitements have to be taken in consideration too !
Ideally, horses should get turned out every day but depending where you live, it's not always possible.
My ex racer spend the summer in a big herd 24/7 but being a TB, he is now happy to come in at night !
We get lots of snow and i think, he enjoy coming in and tucking into his feed !
Everyone does the best they can, racehorses here in Switzerland get 1 hour or 2 a week in a small paddock.
Not my choice but better than nothing.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
I wouldn't do 24/7 no turnout but that's me and I have a choice at the yard that I am at. Yes its annoying when their legs are muddy and rugs are wet through, etc. etc but I consider it my horses time out at liberty and to take that away from her is just not fair.

But not everyone has a choice. Some areas of the country are a bit sparse for livery yards.

Before condeming folk that don't turnout in the winter... as an example, say there are only say 3 livery yards in a reasonable commute from your house/place of work and you ruled one out for no safe hacking, another out for no assisted DIY, that would only leaves you with one, that might have limited or no turnout in winter. And of course there could be a whole host of reasons why you might rule out particular yards, not just travel time, but budget too.

It's not like folk always have a choice to be honest............
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They have the ultimate choice don't own one its not a right it is a privilege. Everyone by now knows my view if I couldn't keep mine out I wouldnt own them the young ones would be sold and old ones shot no question
 
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