Nobody knows what's wrong with him!

Brummyrat

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Good afternoon all. This is a bit of a long-shot but Ive got nothing to lose so here goes….Does anybody know where I could get online veterinary advice with regards my horse, or it doesn’t even have to be online, just advice? Its sounds crazy I know but I feel Ive explored every avenue. Ive been on here for advice and it drew a blank although I did get the name of a lovely vet, Ive had two vets out (mine plus the one recommended), a chiropractor and even spoken at length to a cardiologist from Newmarket (who the second vet referred me to as he was at a loss). This all happened over the winter/early spring just gone and its cost me hundreds but nobody can tell me what is wrong with my horse except second vet said he was 100% physically fine. The thing is…he now appears better, which I know is fantastic but I don’t want to do normal stuff like put him in a trailer when the initial problem manifested itself in him collapsing with no warning. What I thought it was doesn’t just go away so maybe I was wrong, but seriously somebody should be able to have a go at guessing a diagnosis?? I can’t have the only horse who’s suffered from this, but maybe I do! Thank you for listening to the rantings of a mad woman, if anyone can advise me if there’s anywhere out there who would listen I’d be really grateful. I wont risk anything with him unless I get the all clear anyway as he’s my boy but it seems a shame we can’t go out and play if he is, in fact, ok now. Sorry, just read this through and it goes on a bit :-(
 

Booboos

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I am not too sure what the symptoms are, sorry I haven't seen your other posts. I am in a similar position with two horses with odd muscle wastage symptoms and no cause, diagnosis or treatment.

Are you in the UK? There are major diagnostic centres in the UK so if you can you should take your horse to the one that specialises in the area that is the probable cause (e.g. lameness, neuro, internal medicine, etc.). Your vet should be able to recommend the best specialist to refer to and the specialist should have some idea of diagnostic tests to narrow down what is happening.
 

flintfootfilly

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Please would you either link to your original history, or put some key signs/symptoms on here. Thanks. :)

It's a b****r when you can't get to the bottom of things. Hope something turns up.

Sarah
 

Brummyrat

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Thanks for the comments guys and BB Im sorry you're going through the same thing, the diagnostic centre would be a good idea but Im scared to travel him at the moment. In a nutshell, my healthy but old boy came over backwards last October after Id got on. He was jigjogging as he did then wallop, he seemed to lose coordination behind until he rolled backwards, onto concrete, ouch. What followed was a kind of pattern, he seemed fine but whenever he was taken by surprise he'd collapse, once he did it while being stretched by the back lady, he seemed to blackout in the stable and faceplanted the wall as he went down it was horrible. He even did it one evening when I bathed his eyes whilst grooming. First vet thought it was his back, it isnt, second vet spent an hour with him and looked at every inch, saw him tacked up, lunged, did bloods, tested for EH1 and other stuff including cushings because his eye sockets had come up but all came back negative. He also became lethargic and trippy when riding - vet told me to ride as long as I lunged first but to be honest it wasnt much fun, thought I was losing him. Anyway I researched vaso vagal syncope and it seemed to fit, he even almost went down when we went past flappy plastic which always makes him silly, it seemed everytime he went "wooaaahh, dont like that" he'd go into a faint. Cardiologist said it MAY be but its very rare in horses and nothing can be done anyway. So, months later I have this: horse now amazing to ride, really fit and well, eye sockets back to normal, I dont have to lunge first, I can do anything to make him jump to try and get a reaction (and he does) like bouncing on a trailer ramp as I walk past it with him, and I get no reaction he just jogs like he used to. Ive even walked him onto a little lorry and he was fine. It cant have been what I thought as it's progressive so what was it? I only want to know because I'd love to take him out for a blast but I would never risk it happening in the trailer and until I know, I can't take that risk. Hope this makes more sense, if anybody has seen these symptoms then please let me know, PM if you wish, Im at a loss although obviously Im over the moon that I still have him, he's 23 so I know how lucky I am.
 

Booboos

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Sounds like a blood pressure issue? What did the cardiologist say? Could it have been something that he just recovered from by himself?

Is he back in work? If the vet thinks its OK for you to ride him maybe start him in work again and see what happens?
 

Artful

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Epilepsy maybe? It's quite rare in horses but my sisters horse has had a couple of small 'episodes' (as far as we know) she kind of collapses just for a few seconds - never when ridden though thank goodness! Apologies if this is something you have already considered
 

Ginger Bear

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My horse did the whole collapsing thing, 3 times I believe. He literally would freeze or run backwards & then his back legs would go & he would lay down, once down he would be fine & wouldnt panic then would just get up, frightened the life out of me the first time! His was pain reaction to the girth (ulcers etc) not that I think its this with your horse.. But I use Donna Blinman Equine Rehab & she said that when a horse does this sort of collapsing reaction it's just like a complete giving up because of sheer panic.. Sort of like 'just eat me now' if they were in the wild. He was checked by the vet for neurological issues & stuff but nothing was found just the stomach ulcers. By the way I'm not sure where you are but the vet I just mentioned, if there's anything to find she will find it, google her name.
 

jessieblue

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Wow sorry I dont have any direct experience of this nature, but wanted to agree with other poster about the fear response. Horses do have an inbuilt instinct to give up when they are in danger. Therefore maybe this could have been a stress related condition maybe? Another thing that occurred to me was narcolepsy. I dont even know if horses can suffer from it, but it does sound similar symptomwise. Narcolepsy can affect the victim when something stresses or scares them???

Just wanted to reply as I can imagine how worrying this is, but Im really pleased your horse seems to have recovered. In time you may become more confident that this has passed and wont happen again. I honestly think that will be the best way for you to get over it. I have had experiences that were different but completely understand the fear everyday or it happening again. My horse was very sick in february, nearly died, went to RVC for tests and treatment, got better, but they have no idea what caused it!! So I do understand the "fear". For me, time has been the best healer. I was paranoid at first, but gradually became less concerned day by day. Some days now I dont even think of it at all! Be careful you dont wast a lot of your money looking for answers that may not be there. There are too many people happy to charge and still not give you any more reassurance. I wish you the best of luck!
 

Bryndu

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Hi
This may help?
Similar happened to my horse.....and on advice from an equine cardiologist....because nothing could be found.....he suggested a virus which affected his heart.
He said we could do one of two things.....give him 12 months to recover....or PTS.
We took the first option.....
12 months later we lunged him with an echocardiaograph fitted....he was pronounced fit....I made the nerve wracking decision to get back on......two years down the line we are flying:)
Best of luck
Bryndu
 

Brummyrat

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Thank you so much for the replies, its given me some real food for thought. The article on Narcolepsy was very interesting and I did initially think about this but the second vet said he'd heard of it twice in his lifetime and the circumstances were different to my boy (I dont know how), he also ruled out ulcers which id already ruled out myself because I did try him on Gastroguard for a month thinking this may be the cause - and he still had a collapse whilst on it. Bryndu, your reply has really struck a chord, did your horse have similar symptoms? I have been thinking for a couple of months now that it may have been a virus affecting his heart, it was definitely heart/bp related we know that but why would he just get better, unless it was a virus? Im going to just carry on as I am because that's all I can do and maybe, if she lets me, ask the lady with the little lorry to take me out somewhere local, if the worst happens then at least its not in a trailer.
 

fatpiggy

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Sounds like it could be neurological to me. Narcolepsy usually happens when the subject is relaxed but some people with it collapse under stress. Goats certainly do this. My EDT told me he sometimes has horses collapse on him when he rasps them - invariably they are arabs which as a breed are rather prone to hysterics.

Its interesting that you say he did it while you bathed his eyes. My horse had epilepsy and I collected details of cases from all over the world, and I have two on my books which had seizures under those exact circumstances. Seizures don't always look like the textbook collapse, with lots of jumping about on the floor. Has your vet done a complete neurological workout? It has to include raising the horses head and making it walk backwards. And don't let your vet give you the old flannel about neurological disorders, especially epilepsy being incredibly rare, because they aren't!! PM me if you like.
 

Oberon

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But I use Donna Blinman Equine Rehab & she said that when a horse does this sort of collapsing reaction it's just like a complete giving up because of sheer panic.. Sort of like 'just eat me now' if they were in the wild.

I've heard of that, it's called the Freeze Response - where the prey animal knows there is no hope of escaping the chasing tiger and it's body systems shut down. If the animal manages to survive and gets back up (because sometimes freezing puts the chasing predator off), it is believed the animal has no memory of the event as even the brain froze. It's kind of nice to know nature protects them at the end and they never know when they're being eaten.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing_behavior

It's interesting to read about the effects on blood pressure by this action.....
 

Brummyrat

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Thanks again for your ideas it is so much appreciated, i dont think he was panicking as when it happened we were doing run of the,mill stuff, it seemed to be whenever he got a surprise, he's quite sharp so jogs past anything which gives him the willies but its never made him do this before....after the first couple of times I could talk him out of it which suggests a faint rather than epilepsy (which I have so i know you can't be"talked round"). The second vet did actually do the lifting head and walk him backwards test, nothing happened...he was as frustrated as me, especially a week later when the farrier had his hind foot up and the yard person chucked a rug on him and he again almost went, but was talked out of it. He's been with me 20 years and never done this before :-(
 

fatpiggy

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He's your classic Section D fp x

Oh dear. As I said before I've got lots of records of horses/ponies with epilepsy (and some narcoleptics) and can confidently tell you that the welsh breeds outweigh the other breeds apart from arabs by a country mile with it. And that includes cases abroad. One of my most recent cases was a pure bred welsh d mare in Texas. My own girl was welsh d x... In fact, when I ask owners for information, the very first question I ask is what breed it is :(
 

Bryndu

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Thank you so much for the replies, its given me some real food for thought. The article on Narcolepsy was very interesting and I did initially think about this but the second vet said he'd heard of it twice in his lifetime and the circumstances were different to my boy (I dont know how), he also ruled out ulcers which id already ruled out myself because I did try him on Gastroguard for a month thinking this may be the cause - and he still had a collapse whilst on it. Bryndu, your reply has really struck a chord, did your horse have similar symptoms? I have been thinking for a couple of months now that it may have been a virus affecting his heart, it was definitely heart/bp related we know that but why would he just get better, unless it was a virus? Im going to just carry on as I am because that's all I can do and maybe, if she lets me, ask the lady with the little lorry to take me out somewhere local, if the worst happens then at least its not in a trailer.

Hi again,
Identical....apparently the collapse can happen when the heart beat quickens.....could be due to any small/large experience....could equally have happened on loading....unseen stress causing the heart rate to rise.
My only experience of Narcolepsy...was a friend's horse.....and that it did seem to happen gradually...eg when the horse was at rest...and gradually dozing off...when his legs would buckle...friend kicked him (if she was on him) and he was ok again....
The experience I had with my horse was instant.
Best of luck
Bryndu
 

Clare85

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I'm sure I saw a thread on here recently about another horse who kept randomly collapsing. Somebody suggested that this could be a symptom of Cushings. I think the thread I saw was in The Tack Room. Can't copy and paste links from my phone but will have a look and try and post the name of thread and the op.
 

Brummyrat

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Thanks Clare and Fatpiggy its such a minefield, I had no idea horses went down for so many different reasons! FP I still think, despite the tendancy of Welshies to suffer narcolepsy and I fully take that on board, that with mine its a heart problem. The day I did some research and discovered VV Syncope was when I led him out to the field and we passed some sheeting over shavings and it was caught in the wind, I took no notice and he only did a little jigjog then as we rounded the corner to his field he stopped and did a little step or two backwards which I thought odd..went home and asked Dr Google. That same day later on, came out of stable tacked up to ride, led him past sheeting again and it was blowing a bit more so he started a jog sideways then stopped and had a major wobble, I had to hold his front end down while he struggled to keep his back legs straight, he was almost sat down on the yard. TBH I wasnt unduly worried because i knew if I talked to him and stroked him he'd relax and be ok, and he did! Went on to lunge then ride him absolutely fine. This was the pattern for about 3 months so Im sure it related to heart rate not increasing when he goes into flight mode, a la VVS! Which is all ok but now he seems better, aaaarrrghhh!
 

Crugeran Celt

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Sounds like it could be neurological to me. Narcolepsy usually happens when the subject is relaxed but some people with it collapse under stress. Goats certainly do this. My EDT told me he sometimes has horses collapse on him when he rasps them - invariably they are arabs which as a breed are rather prone to hysterics.

That's interesting, I used to have an anglo arab that started collapsing when we walked towards her with a saddle. Her eyes would glaze over and she would just collapse and lay on the floor with her eyes closed. She did this many times as she got older. We had bought her as a ten year old and she didn't start doing it until she was in her 20's. She then did it while my MIL was riding her. In the end we decided to retire her and she never did it again. OP hope all goes well with your horse.
 

Bryndu

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Hi again
Did you get my message...I think I may be pants at clicking on the right button!
Bryndu
 

Brummyrat

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Hi Bryndu i did get your message thank you but im on my mate's tablet coz im on hols and it wont reply so i`ll get on her pc tomorrow and reply, stupid technology!
 

Queenbee

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Thanks for the comments guys and BB Im sorry you're going through the same thing, the diagnostic centre would be a good idea but Im scared to travel him at the moment. In a nutshell, my healthy but old boy came over backwards last October after Id got on. He was jigjogging as he did then wallop, he seemed to lose coordination behind until he rolled backwards, onto concrete, ouch. What followed was a kind of pattern, he seemed fine but whenever he was taken by surprise he'd collapse, once he did it while being stretched by the back lady, he seemed to blackout in the stable and faceplanted the wall as he went down it was horrible. He even did it one evening when I bathed his eyes whilst grooming. First vet thought it was his back, it isnt, second vet spent an hour with him and looked at every inch, saw him tacked up, lunged, did bloods, tested for EH1 and other stuff including cushings because his eye sockets had come up but all came back negative. He also became lethargic and trippy when riding - vet told me to ride as long as I lunged first but to be honest it wasnt much fun, thought I was losing him. Anyway I researched vaso vagal syncope and it seemed to fit, he even almost went down when we went past flappy plastic which always makes him silly, it seemed everytime he went "wooaaahh, dont like that" he'd go into a faint. Cardiologist said it MAY be but its very rare in horses and nothing can be done anyway. So, months later I have this: horse now amazing to ride, really fit and well, eye sockets back to normal, I dont have to lunge first, I can do anything to make him jump to try and get a reaction (and he does) like bouncing on a trailer ramp as I walk past it with him, and I get no reaction he just jogs like he used to. Ive even walked him onto a little lorry and he was fine. It cant have been what I thought as it's progressive so what was it? I only want to know because I'd love to take him out for a blast but I would never risk it happening in the trailer and until I know, I can't take that risk. Hope this makes more sense, if anybody has seen these symptoms then please let me know, PM if you wish, Im at a loss although obviously Im over the moon that I still have him, he's 23 so I know how lucky I am.
Epilepsy? Symptoms only manifest themselves when an attack is imminent/occurring. And epilepsy can develop/start at any time, could have been caused. By the initial episode even. Post epileptic fit, lethargy is experienced and its incredibly debilitating, perhaps that is why he is tired?

Personally, at 23, if he is otherwise ok, but prone to these issues, I would retire him for as long as you are financially able and for as long as he is physically ok. At 23 what good is a diagnosis going to really do if otherwise he is ok? Let him enjoy some time in the field at his age as you say you are lucky to have him.
 

saturdaygirl

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It's interesting you say it happened when you bathed his eyes as pressure on the eye causes a vagal response - might make it more likely it's VV syncope linked
 
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