Noseband/bit for horse with a sensitive mouth?

be positive said:
I would imagine her heart rate would be so high endurance would not be an option, endurance horses need to be relaxed not wired all the time they are in company.
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Interestingly - not always so - it may take time but some of these types go on to become top Endurance horses - I sold my Anglo Arab a few years ago to an Endurance rider. For the first couple of years he was difficult and is now ridden in a Hackamore as he pulled so badly at the start of each ride he made his mouth bleed. This year he just missed out on qualifying to go to WEG for the New Zealand Endurance team.
 
I would send her for some hacking training or retraining, rather than try to cope with it myself especially since I am a small person with not a lot of strength. I would be afraid I would end up in a nasty accident, either you seriously hurt or the horse or both. Or you could over time begin to lose your confidence and that can be harder to heal from than broken bones. No horse is worth those issues. Or resign yourself to ring riding only. Wish you the best outcome for both of you.....
 
You mentioned she is bad in company. Have you tried exercising her in the school with other horses in there too? Sort of group lesson style. Might help desensitise her to the whole in company thing.
Also what is different about your mounting procedure for schoolwork and hacking? You need to sort that out. Do some more in hand hacking. Take her out ridden for 10 minutes then get off. Short and sweet. Try riding her in a schooling field for progressively longer sessions before hacking her out.
I would also recommend contacting and hiring a behaviourist who may be able to help you much more.
It sounds like she lacks confidence in you with others and gets upset, but jard to diagnose without seeing it.
 
Try the myler combination bit - you've got 3 rein options, it puts pressure on the nose first so if she is properly head collar trained on the ground it should be effective.

The comfort mouthpiece is the only thing my fusspot doesn't put her tongue over and i can usually hold her in it, and have done a one rein stop in desperation twice.
 
I'm in the middle or reading Alexandra Kurland's book 'Clicker Training For Your Horse'. It's really good - all about breaking down your thinking about desirable behaviour into tiny, easily achievable steps, each of which can be rewarded. It sounds like this would be perfect for your horse, especially now you are lacking a bit of confidence in each other.
 
be positive said:
I have just looked at your previous posts, this mare has some behaviour issues that have been going on for some time, only a few weeks ago you thought she may be in foal, has she been looked at by a vet?

She sounds to me that at just 5 she has become very wound up, especially if she was a tricky young horse, she is running on adrenaline and really does need to be quietly taken back several stages to learn that life is not all about galloping round the countryside if she is going to have a useful future, if not unless something is wrong physically that can be sorted she is going to end up becoming a danger to you, herself and anyone who rides out with you, get some professional help, running her into the ground is not the answer for this type of horse they will run until they drop as they don't know any different.

A horse that shakes when you shout is not confident in you, she may not try it on because she is scared not because she trusts, that confidence is required when you ride her.
I would imagine her heart rate would be so high endurance would not be an option, endurance horses need to be relaxed not wired all the time they are in company.
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She has/had many of behavioural issues. And if I'm honest, it's no wonder why! I've been the longest home she has ever had (and will have). She's been passed from pillar to post and as she gets close she's been moved on elsewhere over and over. She lacks trust in people and I've been the first person to stick through her crap.. literally, and keep battling on. I had her as a 'project' at close to 2 and a half. She would corner you and double barrel in the stable (hence having to shout, she now knows otherwise!) Her last owners got rid of her because she was too much. They bought her as a joint project and the other girl that went in half dropped out because of how she acted towards the mare and the mare reacted violently back. Before that, she was in a dealer's field starving to death with a high red worm burden that almost killed her. Not to mention the homes prior to this. So there's no question why she acts this way.

She's not in foal, thankfully!

I prefer to shout than hit. And if it means she backs off then so be it. It was only the other week she turned on my other half and tried backing him into a corner, knowing too well what she was doing, I shouted and she backed off. I can't allow her to barge and push or bite and corner anyone. I spent a year jumping gates from her charging at full gallop at me, rearing vertical, trying to kick me.in the head, corner and double barrel. 99% of this has stopped.

The problem is she's the sort that winds up and fizzes rather quickly. As soon as you show her tack she's ears forward, calling, prancing in the stable. She gets exciteful, nothing nasty but she prefers to go faster than slow, so it's a constant battle. Mind you, she's come a great deal from bolting in open spaces, I can school her on open ground. Just seems to be when there are other horses about she kicks off. We did have 2 idiot riders a few months back that would speed off ahead (not with us, mind you) and wait for us to get close and repeat. She thinks everything is a race all the time. And seemingly never tires out!!
 
The problem is I don't lack confidence in her. But the way she's acting is having an effect o a horse I ride out with and she's starting to do the same and it ends up with the pair at battle and they'll only stop when one backs off.. problem is, mine never backs off.

If it was an option, If she wanted to work, id make sure she'd work and keep her going until she got bored. However, she'd run til she turned blue in the face and would never learn a thing from it.

It's now becoming more about safety. Not for us, but for public, other horses. I can't risk causing an accident and her being the cause. So something has to give.

She is correctly head collar trained. In hand I can give move commands and she'll do as I ask, stop when I ask. In the field without a head collar I can give voice commands and ask her to do something and she will.

Another issue is I can't go near anyone or any horse without her circling, walking between (me and my other half can't stand together as she'll barge through the middle and warn him off). She kicks out at horses and chases them off, biting and threatening and in the past has actually dragged me away (no longer does this though). She gets VERY fussy with trusting anyone. Although I can do pretty much anything to her and her not give a damn lol.
 
The problem is I don't lack confidence in her. But the way she's acting is having an effect o a horse I ride out with and she's starting to do the same and it ends up with the pair at battle and they'll only stop when one backs off.. problem is, mine never backs off.

If it was an option, If she wanted to work, id make sure she'd work and keep her going until she got bored. However, she'd run til she turned blue in the face and would never learn a thing from it.

It's now becoming more about safety. Not for us, but for public, other horses. I can't risk causing an accident and her being the cause. So something has to give.

She is correctly head collar trained. In hand I can give move commands and she'll do as I ask, stop when I ask. In the field without a head collar I can give voice commands and ask her to do something and she will.

Another issue is I can't go near anyone or any horse without her circling, walking between (me and my other half can't stand together as she'll barge through the middle and warn him off). She kicks out at horses and chases them off, biting and threatening and in the past has actually dragged me away (no longer does this though). She gets VERY fussy with trusting anyone. Although I can do pretty much anything to her and her not give a damn lol.
 
Kylara said:
You mentioned she is bad in company. Have you tried exercising her in the school with other horses in there too? Sort of group lesson style. Might help desensitise her to the whole in company thing.
Also what is different about your mounting procedure for schoolwork and hacking? You need to sort that out. Do some more in hand hacking. Take her out ridden for 10 minutes then get off. Short and sweet. Try riding her in a schooling field for progressively longer sessions before hacking her out.
I would also recommend contacting and hiring a behaviourist who may be able to help you much more.
It sounds like she lacks confidence in you with others and gets upset, but jard to diagnose without seeing it.
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She tends to fight to go with the other horse. Rather than listen to me, but eventually relaxes and listens to what is being asked.

No difference in mounting techniques.. which is strange.
 
Hmm in which case I would tack up and get ready as if for hacking, mount as if you were going out hacking and then go in the school. Also do it the other way around, act as if school will be the work area then go out and hack (only 10 mins).

Also I would suggest asking someone with a very chilled horse to come and school with you. Let her do follow the leader so other horse in front and her behind. Do this for a few minutes then end the schooling session when she is relaxed. Once she does this and relaxes pretty quickly then introduce a second element - ask her to circle away and follow from further away (think lead horse at C and you 2 letters away at B), if she gets upset, then return closer. Once she relaxes with this exercise as well, get the lead horse to circle back and stick a couple of letters behind. Work on independent work once she does all this calmly. It may help, but as I said, hard to help without seeing :)
 
Have you thought about bitless?

I know this sounds radical, and a bit like a suicide mission, but a lot of what you're saying about her behaviour rings bells for me as its very similar, though admittedly more extreme, than I've experienced with my 5yr old gelding.

I got him as recently backed, unschooled but hacking out nicely, which he did at first. Then we had a couple of rides which blew his mind (horses cantering at him). It went downhill rapidly from there. I schooled him extensively over the winter months and he was going beautifully, but hacking was still hair raising. I couldn't even get him out safely with a foot soldier. Some days he'd be fine with company, others not. He bucked me off badly three times in quick succession and would nap and threaten to rear (he has gone up on me several times) even being walked out in hand.

I noticed one day a couple of weeks ago, when walking him in hand just in his headcollar, that he was tons better behaved than normal. Tried again, he was faultless. This is a pony where at one point I was taking him out in his bridle, on a long rope with me kitted out in full safety gear as he was so unpredictable.

I borrowed a dually halter and long reined him in it. Places that previously had him going into meltdown were suddenly all ok. His steering also improved. So then I got on, he was fab. My instructor agrees that he's much happier without the bit. Ordinarily if he spooks badly it will follow with him broncing or spinning madly, but that hasn't been an issue. He spooked on Friday in my lesson, I felt his back go up and thought I was going to hit the deck again, but he took a breath and just stopped instead. Huge relief. Instructor thought, and I agreed that he was expecting to hit the bit as his head went down, and when he didn't, he didn't feel the need to over react. He's usually in a full cheek snaffle (single joint) with no noseband, and I don't have terrible hands, so it isn't that he's been over bitted or hauled around at any point. But I know I've caught him at least once prior to flying over his head, and it seems that this has stuck with him.

His hacking is getting better as he's tons more relaxed. We've managed a bit on our own and this morning went out in company and he was utterly lovely. None of the previous behaviour was present.

I know it seems counter intuitive, but her behaviour sounds very extreme so something must be going on, and whilst I'm sure she does love to run, it does sound like more than just that.

On top of his ridden work, I use clicker training with my boy and do a lot of transition work from voice and seat alone whilst out hacking, which is helping.

The only other thing I'd consider would be a straight bar Pelham with two reins. My old mare went beautifully in this, on a loose rein almost all the time but with the curb rein to just remind her of her manners on the odd occasion when they went AWOL.
 
BayLady said:
Have you thought about bitless?

I know this sounds radical, and a bit like a suicide mission, but a lot of what you're saying about her behaviour rings bells for me as its very similar, though admittedly more extreme, than I've experienced with my 5yr old gelding.

I got him as recently backed, unschooled but hacking out nicely, which he did at first. Then we had a couple of rides which blew his mind (horses cantering at him). It went downhill rapidly from there. I schooled him extensively over the winter months and he was going beautifully, but hacking was still hair raising. I couldn't even get him out safely with a foot soldier. Some days he'd be fine with company, others not. He bucked me off badly three times in quick succession and would nap and threaten to rear (he has gone up on me several times) even being walked out in hand.

I noticed one day a couple of weeks ago, when walking him in hand just in his headcollar, that he was tons better behaved than normal. Tried again, he was faultless. This is a pony where at one point I was taking him out in his bridle, on a long rope with me kitted out in full safety gear as he was so unpredictable.

I borrowed a dually halter and long reined him in it. Places that previously had him going into meltdown were suddenly all ok. His steering also improved. So then I got on, he was fab. My instructor agrees that he's much happier without the bit. Ordinarily if he spooks badly it will follow with him broncing or spinning madly, but that hasn't been an issue. He spooked on Friday in my lesson, I felt his back go up and thought I was going to hit the deck again, but he took a breath and just stopped instead. Huge relief. Instructor thought, and I agreed that he was expecting to hit the bit as his head went down, and when he didn't, he didn't feel the need to over react. He's usually in a full cheek snaffle (single joint) with no noseband, and I don't have terrible hands, so it isn't that he's been over bitted or hauled around at any point. But I know I've caught him at least once prior to flying over his head, and it seems that this has stuck with him.

His hacking is getting better as he's tons more relaxed. We've managed a bit on our own and this morning went out in company and he was utterly lovely. None of the previous behaviour was present.

I know it seems counter intuitive, but her behaviour sounds very extreme so something must be going on, and whilst I'm sure she does love to run, it does sound like more than just that.

On top of his ridden work, I use clicker training with my boy and do a lot of transition work from voice and seat alone whilst out hacking, which is helping.

The only other thing I'd consider would be a straight bar Pelham with two reins. My old mare went beautifully in this, on a loose rein almost all the time but with the curb rein to just remind her of her manners on the odd occasion when they went AWOL.
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There's no nastiness to what she does. It's like it all builds up and she explodes all at once.

She listens perfectly in a head collar. We walked past guns shooting a few weeks back and she stood like a lemon, didn't run and awaited me to tell her what to do next. Had this been under saddle, she would have run for her life! But, we've previously tried bitless, and riding in a heqd collar is no different to her behaviour bitless. She becomes muddled in what you ask (though already knows what you ask in a bridle and head collar on ground?!) But then starts to become frustrated and starts to reverse and cling on to the first person she sees, or starts striking out with her front legs or throwing herself side to side, bucking, or even running off I all sorts of directions. She just doesn't get the idea of it. :(

I'm hoping to get new shoes on her this week and re start over schooling work and see how it goes. But definitely need a nee bit. :(
 
BayLady said:
Have you thought about bitless?

I know this sounds radical, and a bit like a suicide mission, but a lot of what you're saying about her behaviour rings bells for me as its very similar, though admittedly more extreme, than I've experienced with my 5yr old gelding.

I got him as recently backed, unschooled but hacking out nicely, which he did at first. Then we had a couple of rides which blew his mind (horses cantering at him). It went downhill rapidly from there. I schooled him extensively over the winter months and he was going beautifully, but hacking was still hair raising. I couldn't even get him out safely with a foot soldier. Some days he'd be fine with company, others not. He bucked me off badly three times in quick succession and would nap and threaten to rear (he has gone up on me several times) even being walked out in hand.

I noticed one day a couple of weeks ago, when walking him in hand just in his headcollar, that he was tons better behaved than normal. Tried again, he was faultless. This is a pony where at one point I was taking him out in his bridle, on a long rope with me kitted out in full safety gear as he was so unpredictable.

I borrowed a dually halter and long reined him in it. Places that previously had him going into meltdown were suddenly all ok. His steering also improved. So then I got on, he was fab. My instructor agrees that he's much happier without the bit. Ordinarily if he spooks badly it will follow with him broncing or spinning madly, but that hasn't been an issue. He spooked on Friday in my lesson, I felt his back go up and thought I was going to hit the deck again, but he took a breath and just stopped instead. Huge relief. Instructor thought, and I agreed that he was expecting to hit the bit as his head went down, and when he didn't, he didn't feel the need to over react. He's usually in a full cheek snaffle (single joint) with no noseband, and I don't have terrible hands, so it isn't that he's been over bitted or hauled around at any point. But I know I've caught him at least once prior to flying over his head, and it seems that this has stuck with him.

His hacking is getting better as he's tons more relaxed. We've managed a bit on our own and this morning went out in company and he was utterly lovely. None of the previous behaviour was present.

I know it seems counter intuitive, but her behaviour sounds very extreme so something must be going on, and whilst I'm sure she does love to run, it does sound like more than just that.

On top of his ridden work, I use clicker training with my boy and do a lot of transition work from voice and seat alone whilst out hacking, which is helping.

The only other thing I'd consider would be a straight bar Pelham with two reins. My old mare went beautifully in this, on a loose rein almost all the time but with the curb rein to just remind her of her manners on the odd occasion when they went AWOL.
Click to expand...

There's no nastiness to what she does. It's like it all builds up and she explodes all at once.

She listens perfectly in a head collar. We walked past guns shooting a few weeks back and she stood like a lemon, didn't run and awaited me to tell her what to do next. Had this been under saddle, she would have run for her life! But, we've previously tried bitless, and riding in a heqd collar is no different to her behaviour bitless. She becomes muddled in what you ask (though already knows what you ask in a bridle and head collar on ground?!) But then starts to become frustrated and starts to reverse and cling on to the first person she sees, or starts striking out with her front legs or throwing herself side to side, bucking, or even running off I all sorts of directions. She just doesn't get the idea of it. :(

I'm hoping to get new shoes on her this week and re start over schooling work and see how it goes. But definitely need a nee bit. :(
 
I must have missed something, sorry.

You say you have had her since 2 1/2? Yet she has had many homes? How old is she now?

TBH, I think that for your and her safety you need a bit that you can stop her in, without worrying too much about her mouth (which won't spoil if you have good hands).

I don't understand how she knows when you mount whether you will be hacking or going into the school, what is the difference about how you do it?
I think you really need to get someone else to watch what is happening and give you their unbiased opinion.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I must have missed something, sorry.

You say you have had her since 2 1/2? Yet she has had many homes? How old is she now?

TBH, I think that for your and her safety you need a bit that you can stop her in, without worrying too much about her mouth (which won't spoil if you have good hands).

I don't understand how she knows when you mount whether you will be hacking or going into the school, what is the difference about how you do it?
I think you really need to get someone else to watch what is happening and give you their unbiased opinion.
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Many homes before myself, me and her previous owner aren't sure of how many, but we were told a few. Prior to us, she was in a dealer's field left to die. Hence why she is rather defensive and protective, and hard to gain her trust.

There isn't a difference, that's the problem. I think it just depends on how she is that particular day, rather than relating mounting to hacking or school. The majority of the time she does stand, but is impatient, so will consistently move if stood around for too long. She won't stand around much anyways, as gets bored rather easily. She is mounted using the same mounting block, in the same area.. nothing different about it.

We have done, and they've all suggested changing her bit as she knows her strength all too well. She's nearly 16.2hh and weighs a hell of a lot, and still growing. I need a bit that can assist with at least backing up what I ask. I don't have a chance at 8 and a half stone and being 5'3" I have nothing behind me to help!

I was considering a straight bar rubber pelham? Can be used similarly to a snaffle, or has the curb to put her back in line (only IF needed?) Will be going back over her school work anyhow once her shoes are done this Tuesday. But even our farrier agreed that she's rather feisty in her ways (eager to go, and knowing her strength).
 
Definitely not a rubber mouthpiece - Rubber, unless kept wet all the time grabs at the skin and can easily chafe the mouth

Try one of these, A Pelham with a Cambridge mouth, this will allow space for the tongue and place the action of the bit on the bars of the mouth

PelhamCambridgemouth.jpg


Make sure that you do the curb chain up as shown below. Taking the chain through the rings prevents the corners of the mouth being pinched between the hooks and the corners of the mouth. It also places the curb chain in the correct place - the chin groove. A rubber chain guard would be advisable.

Pelhamchainthroughring.jpg


If you want less curb type action then go for a Uttoxeter (Uxter), as you have a choice of rein positions

BITUxeterwithCambridgemouth.jpg
 
Do you have any video of how she is behaving? If we saw it we might be able to get a better impression of what she is doing and why, and be able to offer better advice.
 
Fides said:
Do you have any video of how she is behaving? If we saw it we might be able to get a better impression of what she is doing and why, and be able to offer better advice.
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Once her shoes are on Tuesday, I'll get someone to video her. It's just like a big tantrum, if you don't let her go, she's putting her head between her legs, throwing it about or running sideways, threatening to rear, bucking and squealing until she finally grabs it and does what she likes.

It's just basically a battle to keep her back and her wanting to go faster. But to the point she's doing it on roads (empty estates), and did it on a main road a few weeks back, luckily enough the car was going slow enough to stop whilst I fought to get her back.
 
Tnavas said:
Definitely not a rubber mouthpiece - Rubber, unless kept wet all the time grabs at the skin and can easily chafe the mouth

Try one of these, A Pelham with a Cambridge mouth, this will allow space for the tongue and place the action of the bit on the bars of the mouth

PelhamCambridgemouth.jpg


Make sure that you do the curb chain up as shown below. Taking the chain through the rings prevents the corners of the mouth being pinched between the hooks and the corners of the mouth. It also places the curb chain in the correct place - the chin groove. A rubber chain guard would be advisable.

Pelhamchainthroughring.jpg


If you want less curb type action then go for a Uttoxeter (Uxter), as you have a choice of rein positions

BITUxeterwithCambridgemouth.jpg
Click to expand...


Thank you, all so new as never once ever had to use a pelham, and thought that she'd stay nicely in a full cheek snaffle. :/ Definitely think the Uttoxeter would be the better choice with less curb action. I only need something that will assist when needed and otherwise be sensitive. I just worry! :)
 
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