Not feeling good about Lottie :-(

Ample Prosecco

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She is carrying 2 chronic injuries - hocks and SI. I am doing everything I can to make sure she's comfortable. Core conditioning on long reins over poles once a week, to build core strength and topline, 6 monthly vet check with jabs as needed, monthly Indiba/Laser or massage with the vet physio, supplements, a highly structured work-load to ensure she is fit and strong. Vet is clear she is better in work, staying strong.

Vet and physio tell me there's plenty far, far worse out there happily doing the job, and that some with nothing much evidently wrong seem unhappy, while other horses with dodgy xrays seem absolutely fine. So the only way I really have of deciding if Lottie is ok to jump or not is by listening to her. Luckily she is prettty expressive!

Lottie loves to jump and is incredibly genuine and honest. I know we all think forward horses love to jump but at least 4 instructors have told me how lovely it is to work with a horse so full of enthusiasm for the job. She locks on, takes me to the fence, ears pricked, looking for the next one on landing, making absolutely every effort to get to the other side, even if I present her on a shocking line. That has made her incredibly consistent, with just 4 jumping faults (1 fence) out of 14 competitive rounds between 85 and 100 this season. And she never ever stops in training either. Last year she was eliminated for accumulated refusals and I knew that she was not right. That is when I took her to the vet and hock issues were identified. After being jabbed she was almost always clear BE and SJ up to Champs and she only had the odd dodgy jump at Champs because the atmosphere was electric, the courses technical, and we were both a bit overwhelmed!

She had another vet check in Feb and was jabbed again. And as I said has been flying all season. Until the day before yesterday when I had a tune up lesson for BN 2nd rounds tomorrow. She was fab for 30 mins then downed tools. Slammed on the brakes 3 times, and I hit the deck all 3 times. I was playing around with a new bit and RI said she was behind the leg as was backing off the bit (although it is meant to be gentler), I failed to adapt to that as she is normally very on the aids.

I hoped it was just that, so I went back to Dean Valley last night in her old bit to gate crash a friend's lesson (at her invitation!) who is also doing 2nd rounds. Again she jumped super for 30 minutes then slammed on the brakes coming to an oxer. We had a good, punchy canter, and were on a perfect stride. There was just no reason to stop. RI was saying 'you need more leg, to try her in spurs etc' and I said no, I'm not asking her to jump if she does not want to. And that was lesson over. I am sure stronger riding could MAKE her jump, but I know my horse, and if she is saying she does not want to, then I am going to listen to that.

I have withdrawn from 2nd rounds and will take her to vet next week. I am hoping beyond hope that she has just tweaked something that will settle again and we have more time together and more jumping adventures to come. She has been an absolute dream to compete over the past 12 months. Such a brilliant, brave horse. But I have a horrible feeling that the injuries have caught up with her and, much as her mind remains willing, her body is saying 'ouch', when it comes to jumping. She still seems perfectly happy and keen out hacking and schooling. Not lame and moving freely. I also think she jumps well up to a point - then it hurts too much. So it's towards the end of the lesson, the issues come in. But I have no way of knowing how uncomfortable she is in the build up to that point, as she goes from yeehaa GO, to a flat no so fast, with no warning signs.
 

TheMule

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She is carrying 2 chronic injuries - hocks and SI. I am doing everything I can to make sure she's comfortable. Core conditioning on long reins over poles once a week, to build core strength and topline, 6 monthly vet check with jabs as needed, monthly Indiba/Laser or massage with the vet physio, supplements, a highly structured work-load to ensure she is fit and strong. Vet is clear she is better in work, staying strong.

Vet and physio tell me there's plenty far, far worse out there happily doing the job, and that some with nothing much evidently wrong seem unhappy, while other horses with dodgy xrays seem absolutely fine. So the only way I really have of deciding if Lottie is ok to jump or not is by listening to her. Luckily she is prettty expressive!

Lottie loves to jump and is incredibly genuine and honest. I know we all think forward horses love to jump but at least 4 instructors have told me how lovely it is to work with a horse so full of enthusiasm for the job. She locks on, takes me to the fence, ears pricked, looking for the next one on landing, making absolutely every effort to get to the other side, even if I present her on a shocking line. That has made her incredibly consistent, with just 4 jumping faults (1 fence) out of 14 competitive rounds between 85 and 100 this season. And she never ever stops in training either. Last year she was eliminated for accumulated refusals and I knew that she was not right. That is when I took her to the vet and hock issues were identified. After being jabbed she was almost always clear BE and SJ up to Champs and she only had the odd dodgy jump at Champs because the atmosphere was electric, the courses technical, and we were both a bit overwhelmed!

She had another vet check in Feb and was jabbed again. And as I said has been flying all season. Until the day before yesterday when I had a tune up lesson for BN 2nd rounds tomorrow. She was fab for 30 mins then downed tools. Slammed on the brakes 3 times, and I hit the deck all 3 times. I was playing around with a new bit and RI said she was behind the leg as was backing off the bit (although it is meant to be gentler), I failed to adapt to that as she is normally very on the aids.

I hoped it was just that, so I went back to Dean Valley last night in her old bit to gate crash a friend's lesson (at her invitation!) who is also doing 2nd rounds. Again she jumped super for 30 minutes then slammed on the brakes coming to an oxer. We had a good, punchy canter, and were on a perfect stride. There was just no reason to stop. RI was saying 'you need more leg, to try her in spurs etc' and I said no, I'm not asking her to jump if she does not want to. And that was lesson over. I am sure stronger riding could MAKE her jump, but I know my horse, and if she is saying she does not want to, then I am going to listen to that.

I have withdrawn from 2nd rounds and will take her to vet next week. I am hoping beyond hope that she has just tweaked something that will settle again and we have more time together and more jumping adventures to come. She has been an absolute dream to compete over the past 12 months. Such a brilliant, brave horse. But I have a horrible feeling that the injuries have caught up with her and, much as her mind remains willing, her body is saying 'ouch', when it comes to jumping. She still seems perfectly happy and keen out hacking and schooling. Not lame and moving freely. I also think she jumps well up to a point - then it hurts too much. So it's towards the end of the lesson, the issues come in. But I have no way of knowing how uncomfortable she is in the build up to that point, as she goes from yeehaa GO, to a flat no so fast, with no warning signs.

I'm sorry that you're having problems with her, but I wouldn’t necessarily assume the worst. If the vet doesn’t find anything obvious then I would probably give her 6 weeks off jumping and just enjoy some hacking and light schooling (not beyond her 30min limit) and then re-evaluate.
 

Mrs. Jingle

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I'm sorry that she isn't right but how refreshing to read that you do not intend to push her into doing something likely to harm her, especially after the other thread that I've just commented on.

This with bells on, but I wouldn't immediately write her off, hopefully just a blib. Just a thought, is she into season just now? With my mare the first couple of seasons of the year turns her into the most grumpy unco-operative mare going. Never sure why and also possibly spring grass connected, but she settles back to her normal self by about mid/late May time. Even retired she shows her feelings at this time of the year, she chased my son out of her field last night because he wouldn't open up more grass for her! ☺️
 

Ample Prosecco

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She's not in season just at the moment - was last week but it did not seem to affect her under saddle. Just amde her even more grumpy than ususal in the stable! I have an appointment at the hospital on Tuesday with her usual vet, so we will see what that brings up.
 

Goldenstar

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You just need to listen give her a break from jumping hack her a bit .
It’s worth in horse like having the same vet flex test them now and again because they are best placed to judge what’s what .
Have a rethink it might be a blip it might not . Decide which professionals are best placed to help you decide the way forward.
It might be worth adding more core work into the mix as I do think this can help a lot .
Have you had a gel product put in the hocks if you have not I would be asking about that .
 

PinkvSantaboots

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Friends horse started doing similar his only young he went to the vets couldn't find anything wrong, she laid off jumping and started doing a bit of affiliated dressage and actually does really well, she then started jumping a bit more and he was fine, his just one of those horses that likes variations in life so she does a bit of both with him and his thriving now.
 

McGrools

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I sympathise. I think when a horse that loves to jump starts stopping they are telling you something.
My ex racer is as bold as brass to jump and so when she started ducking left last autumn I backed off. And we are now trying to solve foot balance issues in the hinds which I know is part of the problem. Best of luck that it’s an easy fix xx
 

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I’m sorry to hear this as it’s been so lovely seeing your journey together.

Well done also for stopping your lesson and not riding her through it. You know her best and she’s clearly telling you something.

I don’t think scaling back and giving her a break will necessarily solve the issues if there’s something brewing, so think the plan of checking her out now is a good one.

Fingers crossed something easily fixed is found.
 

ihatework

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Bugger. Yes definitely vet check, just in case it's a red herring.
Possibly a blessing in disguise regarding second rounds, they do get pretty beefy.

I wouldn't panic just yet but it sounds like you might just need to play around with her ridden management - she is an older horse and she knows how to jump 90cm, so doing a little less jumping and shorter jump sessions at home might be all she needs. At least she is a clear 'yes' or 'no' kind of girl - it's the martyrs that are far more concerning for me!
 

millitiger

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Sorry to hear this AE, I hope your vet check throws something up that is easily resolved.
It is great that she tells you so clearly when she doesn't feel right. And great that you listen to her when she does.

I know it's super hard but try not to catastrophize before your appointment.
I say, knowing I am the worst person for doing exactly that!
 

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I'm sorry that she isn't right but how refreshing to read that you do not intend to push her into doing something likely to harm her, especially after the other thread that I've just commented on.

I agree.

It’s so hard isn’t it. We can’t stop working them every time they refuse or go disunited etc, but this is a shining example of knowing your horse and listening to her.

Although I’ve nothing constructive to add as I only came here to post a similar scenario myself ☹️
 

Ample Prosecco

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it sounds like you might just need to play around with her ridden management - she is an older horse and she knows how to jump 90cm, so doing a little less jumping and shorter jump sessions at home might be all she needs. At least she is a clear 'yes' or 'no' kind of girl - it's the martyrs that are far more concerning for me!

She is only 10 and at the moment she competes at 85/90 about once a fortnight. No more than 2 classes. (I usually do the 85 qualifier than the BN). Then we have a lesson every 2 weeks ish. Really does not seem that much. So if that is still too much, she may need a change in career from BS/BE to dressage/hacking with just the odd jump for fun on a farm ride or fun ride.

But I am trying not to pre-empt Tuesday. I will know when I know, and can then decided next steps. Need to take it one step at a time.
 

SEL

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She is only 10 and at the moment she competes at 85/90 about once a fortnight. No more than 2 classes. (I usually do the 85 qualifier than the BN). Then we have a lesson every 2 weeks ish. Really does not seem that much. So if that is still too much, she may need a change in career from BS/BE to dressage/hacking with just the odd jump for fun on a farm ride or fun ride.

But I am trying not to pre-empt Tuesday. I will know when I know, and can then decided next steps. Need to take it one step at a time.
It's funny how things present on social media because I would have thought you were jumping her more than that too.

A local lady nursed her 22yo eventer through last season (not the plan but his replacement is a vet magnet) by not jumping away from competition, icing straight afterwards and BEMER rug afterwards too. He did have his hocks injected and the physio is on speed dial but on that regime he did brilliantly. He didn't look 22 last time I saw him, so don't lose hope. Sometimes it's just a strain and rest is the answer.

A RI telling you to kick on a horse that has suddenly started slamming on the brakes isn't great 🙄
 

Ample Prosecco

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So Lottie has not quite been written off yet! Hurrah!! In fact vet said she’s a long way off needing to think about slowing down. But her back and neck were really, really sore.

Scanned/xrayed. Lots of bone remodelling on spine but no sign of any injury so vet thinks hocks are moving so much better and back isn’t coping with the change. So she’s guarding and a vicious cycle is setting up. Neck stiffness possibly secondary to her guarding the back. Steroids into back today. Muscle relaxant drugs. Indiba on neck. 2 weeks rehab on lunge in canter over poles to get her back more mobile. Back to Somerford in 2 weeks to review.

Vet hopeful she’ll be fine. Said she was very impressed that Lottie has been jumping so well considering how sore she is, bless her.

Another valuable lesson on the importance of listening to your horse….
 

Michen

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So sorry to read, gah. Horses.

Obviously at the forefront of my mind but did you get neck x rays?

Maybe more regular vet checks once she's sorted? I had Boggle flexed, trotted up, hard circle every 3 months. This may seem excessive but his hocks could go from fine to not fine literally within a few weeks (I have a vet check where he flexed fine, then started stumbling in trailer, vet came out and he needed jabs again). I do think with complicated horses with issues 6 months can be a long time to leave it as you can be working a slightly lame horse unknowingly and then it becomes a much bigger problem. I always wanted to keep on top of hocks etc to avoid any secondary issues.

Obviously Boggle is a mess now, but bar a ligament injury he did event and work lots year after year for nearly 7 years, with the only time off really due to a trauma injury (and some hoof issues the first 6 months I had him). I genuinely don't think he'd have done that especially with his build, way of going etc, if I hadn't been super on it with the hocks.
 
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Ample Prosecco

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Hi she said there was a limit to how much imaging and steroid a horse can tolerate in one go - so her gut instinct was start with back. But neck is being x-rayed in 2 weeks when I take her back. I’ll ask about more regular checks.
 

ihatework

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Ironically her back and neck are struggling because her hocks are really good! Everything needs to be good at the same time. And then we need to keep her there….

Or maybe her back is more obvious now the hocks less prominent?

Not meaning to be gloomy about it, and it’s good the hocks haven’t recurred so quickly, but an arthritic spine is going to take some fairly significant management too.

Keeping 🤞🤞🤞
 

Ample Prosecco

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She did not say arthritis - she said her back x-rays looked good but clearly back had been under recent biomechanical stress. Given her modest workload and skeletal maturity, this seems to be about struggling to adapt to better movement through the hocks.

She actually said back looked like the back of a 4-5 year old beginning to work harder and taking a bit of time to adjust.
 

Marigold4

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I am sorry to hear that about Lottie. What does the vet mean by "lots of bone remodelling on spine"? Kissing spine?
 

MereChristmas

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She did not say arthritis - she said her back x-rays looked good but clearly back had been under recent biomechanical stress. Given her modest workload and skeletal maturity, this seems to be about struggling to adapt to better movement through the hocks.

She actually said back looked like the back of a 4-5 year old beginning to work harder and taking a bit of time to adjust.
I had bad shoulder injury and when it was repaired enough and strong enough for me to hold my shoulders level correctly I couldn’t. Physio had helped but I had compensated for so long the other shoulder had taken on more work in balancing me and I’d become lopsided.
I’m pretty much fine now but still have to remind myself not to drift into being incorrect. If I forget my shoulders are unlevel.
I think this is what your vet means. Rest and exercise to rebalance and relearn the correct way going and then remembering to keep the muscles etc all working together.
 

SEL

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I had bad shoulder injury and when it was repaired enough and strong enough for me to hold my shoulders level correctly I couldn’t. Physio had helped but I had compensated for so long the other shoulder had taken on more work in balancing me and I’d become lopsided.
I’m pretty much fine now but still have to remind myself not to drift into being incorrect. If I forget my shoulders are unlevel.
I think this is what your vet means. Rest and exercise to rebalance and relearn the correct way going and then remembering to keep the muscles etc all working together.
I was thinking a good physio could understand where the remodelling has taken place and see if Lottie is moving correctly. I think you have a physio on board AE?

I have a permanently lopsided shoulder through not getting physio 20 odd years ago when I damaged it. I went to see a physio about my back after a fall in 2017 and she was horrified at my shoulder. It's loads better but I think I'll always be wonky!
 

Ample Prosecco

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Hi I need to get more clarity from the vet - definitely not kisising spines. The spinous processes are nicely spaced which is a relief! I'd be gutted if I'd been jumping a horse with KS for 3 years and not known.

On the x-ray there were areas that were bright white. Bone cells die off and regrow all the time - which is why they can heal. The whiter bits are newer bone - which grow more quickly as they adapt to load or stress. She said that it would be in a younger horse stepping up the work where this sort of x-ray is more common than in a skeletally mature horse. Lottie is not over-jumped so it's her adapting to more mobility in the hocks that has put more load on her back. So the rehab is all about getting her moving correctly - but in canter and over poles. Gymastic type exercise on long reins and lunge. But also pain relief in the back so she WILL move corretly. Vet does not think this will need treating again but the steroid is mixed with some analgesic plus bute and the muscle relaxant so that I can do the rehab. Which is only 4-6 weeks. The she wants her back in work. She said rest is not helpful - the more work the better, as long as she is coping with it.
 
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