Not going forward into a contact

L

lamlyn2012

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 November 2008
Messages
965
Visit site
Got new horse about 6 mnths ago. He is a lovely boy but can be very lazy in the school and I find it difficult to get him to take a steady contact. (He backs off and drops contact)
I've tried transitions and schooling movements but am still finding him difficult.
I already use a schooling whip and am wondering whether to try spurs.
He came to me in a french link snaffle which I have carried on using.
He has improved a bit and sometimes can go really well, for short bursts, but I have to work so hard I'm almost dead at the end of a session!!
Teeth done and back and saddle checked.
I'm lungeing him in a Chambon once a week.
Any ideas please??
 
I have a phd in lazy horses, esp ones that hate the contact since the two go hand in hand! - hope this helps...

Choose a nice calm day when you're in a good mood, and prepare yourself for a supreme test of patience!

the harder you work, the lazier he will become, so the first rule is
1. Do as LITTLE as possible!

He will be used to you kicking away to get him moving, so will probably just stop and wait for the usual nagging. Refuse to nag, take a deep breath and chill out. Let him stand for a bit, and he will be wondering why you haven't kicked him yet like you normally would!

Rule 2. all this time, maintain a steady contact. no matter how lazy he gets, don't drop it. just enough contact so the reins are straight/taut. Even if he puts his head between his knees/in the air, he must, MUST learn, that the rein does not mean the handbrake is on!

next, as you're standing there quietly doing nothing, give him a tiny kick and ask him to walk on. If he does: DONT DO ANYTHING ELSE, just let him walk and praise him with your voice. don't nag.

What is more likely though, is that because you are still holding the contact steady, he will not walk forward, he will just stand there! he thinks the brakes are still on! So! Now you must ask a little more firmly, with a stronger aid.

Slowly, methodically, keep repeating the aid, a little stronger each time, until he walks. Then, do nothing! Don't nag. Just let him walk. He needs to learn to go forward without you kicking all the time, and if you kick more, you just undo the lesson!

Because you are still holding the contact, he may well stop yet again - DON'T LOSE CONFIDENCE! Another deep breath. Wait, then ask with the small kick again....

You get the picture. Hopefully, after repeating this process for a while, he will get the idea. If he is super stubborn & refuses to listen to your leg, then you can always give a tap with the whip, but try to always go back to the lightest aid possible. Remember - horses can feel flies on their skin, so he can definitely feel you kicking!
 
Might not be for everyone but my old horse was never off the leg as a 6/7 year old so I took her for some blasts on the beach and some local gallops and never had a problem again.
 
bran mash said:
I have a phd in lazy horses, esp ones that hate the contact since the two go hand in hand! - hope this helps...

Choose a nice calm day when you're in a good mood, and prepare yourself for a supreme test of patience!

the harder you work, the lazier he will become, so the first rule is
1. Do as LITTLE as possible!

He will be used to you kicking away to get him moving, so will probably just stop and wait for the usual nagging. Refuse to nag, take a deep breath and chill out. Let him stand for a bit, and he will be wondering why you haven't kicked him yet like you normally would!

Rule 2. all this time, maintain a steady contact. no matter how lazy he gets, don't drop it. just enough contact so the reins are straight/taut. Even if he puts his head between his knees/in the air, he must, MUST learn, that the rein does not mean the handbrake is on!

next, as you're standing there quietly doing nothing, give him a tiny kick and ask him to walk on. If he does: DONT DO ANYTHING ELSE, just let him walk and praise him with your voice. don't nag.

What is more likely though, is that because you are still holding the contact steady, he will not walk forward, he will just stand there! he thinks the brakes are still on! So! Now you must ask a little more firmly, with a stronger aid.

Slowly, methodically, keep repeating the aid, a little stronger each time, until he walks. Then, do nothing! Don't nag. Just let him walk. He needs to learn to go forward without you kicking all the time, and if you kick more, you just undo the lesson!

Because you are still holding the contact, he may well stop yet again - DON'T LOSE CONFIDENCE! Another deep breath. Wait, then ask with the small kick again....

You get the picture. Hopefully, after repeating this process for a while, he will get the idea. If he is super stubborn & refuses to listen to your leg, then you can always give a tap with the whip, but try to always go back to the lightest aid possible. Remember - horses can feel flies on their skin, so he can definitely feel you kicking!
Click to expand...

depends how determined he is to do nothing, CS would stand there for ever and a day, cock a leg and go to sleep with this method, and when you finally DID give him a smack, he take you totally by suprise by standing up, running backwards and dropping a shoulder simultaneously thus flicking you out the side door...............granted he's extreme and got it down to a fine art before i had him but the only thing that works for him is:

*ask nicely.
*if no response, kick like a thelwell rider, and continue to kick, even though he'll spin, bronc, rear, run in to the fence or spin backwards whilst kicking, just keep on kicking until he goes forward and then relax the leg. the *im going to count to 3* game of soft, harder, Harder, HARDER doesnt work at all for him, he needs to know that ill ask nicely once and after that i wont be so nice and i also wont give up until he goes briskly forward.


i do TOTALLY agree that you MUST keep the contact though, or they never learn to take it forward with them.

depends if they are lazy in the body or quirky and idle in the mind i think....i also cant use a whip to back up my leg as then when i put it down he immediately goes in to high speed reverse, rearing and kicking becuase he perceives ive got nothing to bargain with anymore-he has had to realise that whip or no whip, he cant shrug off my aids and that i can be just a firm without a whip in my hand.

its been a long old road and it took me most of last year to cement it, and even now, if i let him even slightly be behind the leg one day, the next day we are back to rearing and spinning and trying it on-if i nail his arse to the floor for it, he is good as gold as long as i am 100% black and white.
 
Good advice given already.

Mine would be get an instructor - you cannot beat advice from the ground, it works :)

Please don't get spurs, a big no no - never use spurs or a whip unless your horse is already very responsive and goes off the leg already - they are simply an extension to use as an even subtler aid contrary to the beliefs of many.
 
Does he go forward willingly on a loose rein?

Have you tried some different bits/bridle set ups? He may prefer something like a straight bar nathe or a hanging cheek- I have found these really helpful for getting some horses to take the contact on a bit more.
 
First rule is that you can't contain something in front, that isn't there behind. You need the forwards part there before you can have the contact.
Secondly, instead of making him go forwards on a daily basis, get him actually thinking forwards. So lots of riding with a forwards companion, hunting, fast group hacks, fun rides etc. Just wake him up. Once he's actually moving forwards & responsive to the leg, all you have to do is contain the energy so its used to carry himself. Rather than trying to create & direct it at the same time.
 
but if you dont have a contact, they never learn to move forward to the contact and forever you will have a horse that expects you to leave the front end alone and slams on the anchors as soon as you pick up the contact!

i cant tell you how many horses i teach/ride that are happy to go forward on a *nothing* contact, but as soon as you ask them to take a true contact and be elastic to it, tell you to F off and let go of the rein!

from the word go, it must be forward IN TO a soft contact, never just lolloping round on a long rein and i think thats where a lot of people go wrong, they think forward must come before anything else, but it more fluid than that and to allow forward without a contact is only setting you up for more problems in the future IMO.

i also disagree that fun rides/xc/hacking will have any effect in the school unless the horse is just plain stale..... they can be electric through adrenalin but not actually in front of the leg, and if they are carting you forward so you dont have to use the leg, you arent actually teaching them anythign about the correct response to it.
 
We play the 'what do legs mean?' game. Reins in one hand, other on a neck strap take the legs away and then one big kick like a mounted games rider. Do not pull back on the reins and praise any attempt to go forward. if you do this a few times they soon pick up walk to canter as you take the leg away, makes them much sharper to the actual leg aid!
 
zizz said:
We play the 'what do legs mean?' game. Reins in one hand, other on a neck strap take the legs away and then one big kick like a mounted games rider. Do not pull back on the reins and praise any attempt to go forward. if you do this a few times they soon pick up walk to canter as you take the leg away, makes them much sharper to the actual leg aid!
Click to expand...

My mare would have gone into orbit if you did this and she did just so when a novice friend rode her and 'kicked' asking for trot. Friend ended up with a bottom coloured like a baboons from the extreme bruising. Do this with caution and I wouldn't on a mare :eek:
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
but if you dont have a contact, they never learn to move forward to the contact and forever you will have a horse that expects you to leave the front end alone and slams on the anchors as soon as you pick up the contact!

i cant tell you how many horses i teach/ride that are happy to go forward on a *nothing* contact, but as soon as you ask them to take a true contact and be elastic to it, tell you to F off and let go of the rein!

from the word go, it must be forward IN TO a soft contact, never just lolloping round on a long rein and i think thats where a lot of people go wrong, they think forward must come before anything else, but it more fluid than that and to allow forward without a contact is only setting you up for more problems in the future IMO.

i also disagree that fun rides/xc/hacking will have any effect in the school unless the horse is just plain stale..... they can be electric through adrenalin but not actually in front of the leg, and if they are carting you forward so you dont have to use the leg, you arent actually teaching them anythign about the correct response to it.
Click to expand...

This. When I first got my boy he was so unbelieveably lazy (since winter has come and change in feed and a clip he is totally different, thank god!) However I had a couple of people say to me 'forget where his head is, just get him forward' yes, that principle is great but as I said to them at the time, that horse will happily go along lovely and forward if he is allowed to do a giraffe impression but AS SOON as you pick up a contact and ask anything of him, the handbrake comes on and he also, never used to take the contact forward. I could have 'forgotton about the front end' for years and I guarentee he'd still probably grind to a halt as soon as a contact was taken because he associates it with brakes. They must learn to go forward into it and they won't do that if there's nothing there for them to go into.
 
When instructors say to not worry about the front end I have no doubt that they mean for the rider to have a contact, but simply not to fuss about where the head is and to just keep pushing forward. Some riders become so obsessed about where the head is that they are happy with a false outline.

A horse can never learn to engage without a contact.
 
YasandCrystal said:
When instructors say to not worry about the front end I have no doubt that they mean for the rider to have a contact, but simply not to fuss about where the head is and to just keep pushing forward.

A horse can never learn to engage without a contact.
Click to expand...


but how are (relatively) novice riders meant to know thats what they mean?! i know thats a whole other issue, but i hear this SO often, from well meaning but possibly not so great *yard experts*..."oh just send him forward, leave his head alone" etc etc , they dont understand the concept of forward in to a contact, but parrot this constantly and end up confusing yet more people, and even on this thread there are replies clearly saying to leave the contact alone and just ride forward.....i think its fair to say that not everyone understands it, or how to do it, without dropping the contact totally.

equally-dont worry about where the head is.....why not?! not point pushing them forward with a hollow neck and fixed poll. they just run on their head and stiffen even more.

its one thing to keep a contact and not worry on a fairly soft and settle but idle horse, but it wont work on something going hollow and bracing, no amount of forward will magically fix that.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
but how are (relatively) novice riders meant to know thats what they mean?! i know thats a whole other issue, but i hear this SO often, from well meaning but possibly not so great *yard experts*..."oh just send him forward, leave his head alone" etc etc , they dont understand the concept of forward in to a contact, but parrot this constantly and end up confusing yet more people, and even on this thread there are replies clearly saying to leave the contact alone and just ride forward.....i think its fair to say that not everyone understands it, or how to do it, without dropping the contact totally.

equally-dont worry about where the head is.....why not?! not point pushing them forward with a hollow neck and fixed poll. they just run on their head and stiffen even more.

its one thing to keep a contact and not worry on a fairly soft and settle but idle horse, but it wont work on something going hollow and bracing, no amount of forward will magically fix that.
Click to expand...


Yes I agree, but tbh if the rider does not understand then they need a good instructor to guide them. That was my first piece of advice to the OP - get an instructor.

A good instructor won't let the rider go along with a hollow tense giraffe like horse - they will work on suppleness and softening.

This is why money spent on good instruction is money well spent imo. The message should be clear as to what you are doing and why and what you are aiming for. And much of it done in walk at first I might add, a much underated pace. We can all read a book, but putting the theory into practice is not so simple.
 
QR- I asked if he would go forward on a loose rein to see whether the issue is just with forwards and contact or if he struggles to go forward at any time :)
 
I'm not advocating just leaving it to race around unhindered on mad rides, or not using your legs. But it in an environment where the horse is moving forwards of its own accord, rather than being chased forwards by the leg, the correct response to subtle aids can be taught. And unless we're talking about a horse with issues related to the riders hands, which I didn't get the impression is the case here, I wouldn't say to drop the contact, nor did I. But having a contact in front is counterproductive imo if there is no energy coming from behind to be contained by it.
I would always start a young/green/badly schooled horse by just concentrating on loose, swinging forwards paces, & if needed I'll do that on the buckle. And if done slowly & gradually I've never had an issue with losing the forwards movement when I do pick up a contact.
Nothing op says makes me think its necessary to go to the extreme of dropping all contact, I just think you need the forwards movement there for the contact to be of any benefit. And assuming the horse isn't school sour, getting them thinking forwards in a more lively environment gives you the opportunity to work them properly, & once established properly elsewhere, that same level of responsiveness is easy to transfer to a quieter environment. Yes if sour its possible to have a horse that goes forwards beautifully & dies in a school, but horses that have learnt to go forwards & work elsewhere don't have issues transfering that onto a surface.
I don't see my job as a rider is to be kicking a horse to physically move it forwards. My job is to get it thinking forwards itself, which makes my job easier.
 
Am far from an expert and not competing dressage at anything like the level of posters on this thread but it probably depends why any particular horse is not moving into a contact or going forward. If the horse really doesn't understand - so probably not at the level of this horse- you wouldn't want to be giving it conflicting aids so I would support the very loose rein and kick forward and have done that on a horse with no issues about contact once he understood that he had to move off my leg when first asked.
 
There is as much potential to misinterpret those who say keep the contact regardless as those that say let go. It could easily lead to riding the neck and outline rather than the hind legs. The horse needs to connect up from behind to the contact so when you use your leg the hind leg steps forward under the body and the power comes through the muscles along the back. The poll and jaw soften as the rein receives the power and the horse looks to take the contact forward and down. Like this, the shoulders can stay up and forward, out in front of the rider and you have a connected horse. How to get it is the tricky part as it depends on why he is not engaging behind and staying forward to the contact. Reasons can include:- lack of balance, education, suppleness, laziness, a blocked contact, poor conformation, timing and co-ordination of aids, etc. or a combination of reasons.
If you use more rein than leg then the horse won't go forward and may well drop the contact to avoid it. Equally, if you ride without containing what you create, then the power is wasted. It is a combination of leg, seat and rein that is required with the ratio varying.
If you can get the hind legs to react positively when you use your leg, then you can work on any other factors that need improving. Without that reaction you have no engine so improvement will be limited.
 
What I find helps when teaching people to be effective with their contact, is not to ask for still hands, but ask that they keep the bit still in the mouth. This means that hands are reactive to the horse and therefore are quite fluid and moving, not rigid and still. Aim to keep that bit still in his mouth and the contact on that bit a constant, so no matter if he ducks behind it, or lunges forward and leans, that feeling never changes for him. His evasions lose their effectiveness, and he will therefore stop doing them.
 
Transitions make my lazy horse push with his hind legs rather than pull himself along so we start with these. He will still drop off the contact and encourage me to vigirous use of the leg though, and is most pleased when in frustration I give him a big kick and throw the reins at him, he can then slop into an exhausted frame, neccessitating me to start the process all over again.
I think I have outwitted him though, and suggest you could try the following. When he drops off the leg and you feel ready to simply dismount and walk away, move him sideways instead. I used to drop the contact, I now demand that he works to it, but in a small leg yield or exagerrated inside leg to outside hand move, That has stopped mine for now, I await his next tactic.

Like CSparkle's horse, mine would be made up if I just let him stand in the arena, loafing around is his primary objective, swiftly followed by a march home and his teas pls.
 
Agree with person who said dont use spurs. Spurs and whips are not for forwards!!! They are meant for refined aids.
OP, assuming your horse is all OK physically and saddle fits etc etc are you sure you are not blocking your horses movement, ie by nagging and gripping, rising up and down rather than forward and back creating a heavy seat?

And for all the people that think repeatedly kicking your horse is the way to go would you find someone to kick you in the ribs and then see if you still want to do it to your horse?! :(

If there was a like button on here would be clicking on Littlelegs post :)
 
It is so difficult to offer help without seeing the situation. Some really good advice given already. Fundamentally your horse is not off your leg aids, only you/you trainer will know if you're nagging him or if the timing of your aids aren't quite right. With this sort of horse the rider dropping the contact is the worse thing possible!! You can charge around until the cows come in on a loose rein and will not achieve anything, the horse still will not allow you to ride him through his body and contact issues will remain. A constant loose rein is just not correct (neither are constantly hard unyielding hands.) As Wagtail said, the hand should follow the mouth and there should be elasticity in your elbows.

In my experience a French link is good for horses that back off and want to be constantly behind the contact so that is fine. What you need is a really good pair of eyes on the ground who will teach you to use transitions EFFECTIVELY to the get the horse right there in between your aids. I'm talking about subtle transitions, sending the trot on to engage the hind legs, letting the horse go forwards into the contact, but then knowing how to not lose that feeling in the rein when you bring the trot back, as that's when they want to drop you and disengage. Imagine the reins as sticks, you are trying to push the nose out with your legs whilst maintaining the contact. The hands may need to be a little lower initially. I would be doing LOADS of transitions with a horse like this, like constant on and back in the early part of the session, and then building up to some lateral work to maintain the activity and engagement and keep him forwards into the bridle.

Depending how unresponsive and blase to the leg aids the horse is, I also use the "legs away" technique **whilst keeping an elastic contact**! As you then slowly bring the horse back after his initial blast of energy (!) you keep that feeling in the reins and don't lose the impulsion. It takes skillful riding I think to make this a useful exercise though. Agree, spurs and whips may help in the short term only, always go back to riding without either as going forwards off your legs alone is the key to everything. It is not nice to watch horses at the higher levels that need to be pushed forwards the whole time with constant spur jabs. Good luck!
 
Agree with others no spurs, old saying is keep your legs off the lazy ones and your legs on the hot horses and its true, I would do loads of walk to trot transitions only about 4 or 5 strides of each then change, ask with your leg for trot and back up with your stick, make sure he is jumping into the trot not half hearted, this will get him listening to your leg, only use your leg once then tap with stick so you dont end up nagging or its pointless, make sure you get a forward reaction everytime you use your leg then make sure you stop its all timing and being accurate.
 
charliejet said:
Agree with person who said dont use spurs. Spurs and whips are not for forwards!!! They are meant for refined aids.
OP, assuming your horse is all OK physically and saddle fits etc etc are you sure you are not blocking your horses movement, ie by nagging and gripping, rising up and down rather than forward and back creating a heavy seat?

And for all the people that think repeatedly kicking your horse is the way to go would you find someone to kick you in the ribs and then see if you still want to do it to your horse?! :(

If there was a like button on here would be clicking on Littlelegs post :)
Click to expand...

Ordinarily I would agree with you re the kicking, but my horse is very clever and learn to rear and then bronc going backwards VERY effectivley before I had him and as I've said in my original post, will drop you like a hot potato if y ou pick up a whip and then put it down......for him persistence is the key, he HAS to know I'm not going to give up,go away, or fall off.i ask nicely, but when I get vertical rears, trying to rub me off on the fence and napping to the point of falling over his own feet, and a swift boot or two sorts it out, I don't think it's the worst scenario in the world is it........
 
Wagtail said:
What I find helps when teaching people to be effective with their contact, is not to ask for still hands, but ask that they keep the bit still in the mouth. This means that hands are reactive to the horse and therefore are quite fluid and moving, not rigid and still. Aim to keep that bit still in his mouth and the contact on that bit a constant, so no matter if he ducks behind it, or lunges forward and leans, that feeling never changes for him. His evasions lose their effectiveness, and he will therefore stop doing them.
Click to expand...

Wagtail - that is a really interesting way of putting it.

I started out my dressage 'career' last year with the judge telling me I had 'a lovely elastic connection', but to watch my rein length (too long).

Well we have progressed somewhat from there (from scoring around low 60s in prelims to scoring 69%+ in prelims and 65% in novices), but that has entailed me taking the rein up further and so getting a comment yesterday in my novice that we 'could develop a more elastic contact'! Arggh.

My problem is that in taking the rein up, he doesn't want to accept it all the time and move into it, although in general he does move forward very well and has a lovely rhythm. It's just during the difficult bits, the dowards transitions and 10 m half circles, when he can't be a***d to put the effort in that he stiffens. When shortening the rein, I find that I feel compromised in my upright position; I feel as if I am getting pulled forward, though in reality I suspect that if I open my elbow more and relax my shoulders allowing my hands to come forward even more again, all will improve.

I had a lesson with Jo Graham the other week and she said to take the rein shorter again and he just has to start to deal with it. We are working on leg yield down the side of the school to get him to step more under himself and forward at the same time, in order to strengthen his back end, increase suppleness and front to back connection, but I have been finding the rein length and contact difficult to keep elastic.

I think your way of thinking might help that, so thanks.
 
Last edited:
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Ordinarily I would agree with you re the kicking, but my horse is very clever and learn to rear and then bronc going backwards VERY effectivley before I had him and as I've said in my original post, will drop you like a hot potato if y ou pick up a whip and then put it down......for him persistence is the key, he HAS to know I'm not going to give up,go away, or fall off.i ask nicely, but when I get vertical rears, trying to rub me off on the fence and napping to the point of falling over his own feet, and a swift boot or two sorts it out, I don't think it's the worst scenario in the world is it........
Click to expand...

That sounds like an extreme situation though, hopefully not needed in the OPs or most horses cases ;)
 
hopefully not...BUT...ive seen/taught a couple of others with the same half assed attitude and firmly but fairly continuing to kick, works far better then the soft/harder/hardest approach, they need to know the rider is not going to back off and then its almost like they shrug their shoulders and go "oh alright then" so it is a technique that isnt just for the extreme.
 
Charliejet I think the whole point is that you aren't constantly kicking them! Surely one big boot in the ribs to remind them what your leg means when they are ignoring you is better that constantly nagging with the leg and p*ssing off both horse and rider. They soon learn not to ignore you and then you can actually use much lighter leg aids (e.g leg away then stroke means canter instead of leg on the girth and kick) because they are in front of the leg. Being in front of the leg means that the horse is wanting to take you forward all the time, only then can you get a true connection into the hand and get a consistent contact. I am lucky if I get mine truely in front of my leg for 20 minutes out of the whole hour schooling, he likes to sit behind the bit with his hind legs in the next county somewhere whilst I do all the work. - but you sure know when you do because everything becomes soooo much easier!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top