Not going forward into a contact

YasandCrystal said:
My mare would have gone into orbit if you did this and she did just so when a novice friend rode her and 'kicked' asking for trot. Friend ended up with a bottom coloured like a baboons from the extreme bruising. Do this with caution and I wouldn't on a mare :eek:
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Ha Ha - thats what the neckstrap is for! But then it sound like your mare already knows what legs mean and this is for the horse that has become a bit switched off to them.
 
I think though that whatever your philosophy on the rights or wrongs of kicking, the temperament will effect whether it just makes it work even short term. I've known plenty, mainly mares, who would object just to the principle of being told & dig their heels in further to prove a point. I just don't think in the majority of cases kicking tackles the actual cause. Which is why you get some that end up completely dead to the leg, to the point you can hear the thuds across a field. I'm not accusing everyone who uses the one good kick method of ending up like that, but as imo it is possible in some cases, I think its just more foolproof to get the horse actually thinking forwards, rather than just moving forwards. And I personally prefer horses that want to go forwards, rather than one that just wants to avoid the consequences of not doing so.
 
I know a technique employed by a couple of serious dressage riders for horses who are stuffy, absolutely requires you to use your legs and not allow the horse decide when or how it is going.

We did it with a stuffy pony, You halt at one end of the arena. Count down or go ready steady go. And do a gymnkhana start. horse goes from zero to gallop if at all possible and you use any means at your disposal, voice, whip, hands & most of all legs in big pony club kicks.

You repeat this until horse is off as son as you move the leg.

Whenever you feel horse drop off leg, You halt and repeat on the track.

It works brilliantly.

I can't do it with mine as he is an arse about standing still, it is tempting though.
 
i think some of the suggestions on this thread are nothing short of appalling, and have no place in training, would you do that to the dog or another person? probably no, because you would get prosecuted.

luckily there are some educated opinions.
 
tristar said:
i think some of the suggestions on this thread are nothing short of appalling, and have no place in training, would you do that to the dog or another person? probably no, because you would get prosecuted.

luckily there are some educated opinions.
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the words of someone who has never sat on a genuinely difficult or spoilt horse..............you do what you do to get the message across, because sometimes its last chance saloon and *normal* ways of training havent worked, and if the horse improves and can lead a useful life as part of civillised equine society, everyones a winner.

i do accept CS is a bit extreme and not the norm, but anyone with a sense of reality must surely accept that there is lazy and there is lazy/quirky and what works for the former wont work for the latter and when all the standard options have tried and failed, you have to look outside the box.

dogs and horses have totally different instincts and react totally differently and have completely different roles in human life. ditto other people or children.

at least one other person (sorry cant remember who, or see on this screen) has said her horse too would totally zone out the soft/harder/HARDER approach and would just learn to blank the aids even more, so theres 2 horses out of a very small cross section that would not respons to this standard and well known method.

i know carl hester uses the legs away/standstill/gallop technique as outlined by siennamum, and its true that whether you kick, scream,whoop like a cowboy, twirl the end of your reins like a lunatic or just plain KICK, the horse must accept that leg =forward.

some horses you cannot have a nicey nicey relationship with..............i always say that NMT and FIG are partners, but CS and i have a business agreement-more black and white and with no wiggle room (me as well as him), i ask what is fair, and he gives me a decent try at it. if either of us screws up, so god help us!

thats just my opinion based on my horse and i certainly would advocate going straight to my approach, but the OP made it sound as though drastic action was needed.

ETA-i can certainly trick CS in to thinking forward, by taking him cantering in the field or doing polework, but when the chips are down, and i NEED him to go forward, he'll be just as likely to tell me to get stuffed, in fact even more so if we havent had the go/no/GO/NO/GOGOGOGO/oh ok then argument recently, because in his mind, this time, i might just give up.....the reaction to the leg for the sake of reaction is totally different and must be in place.
 
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I just fail to see the reason behind such a comment, and what it's purpose relevant to the discussion might have been.

Perhaps between your spelling and my obvious lack of basic comprehension skills, that's where we are going wrong *durrrr* ;)
 
Without seeing in the the flesh what your pony is actually doing it is impossible to advise, like most of the sensible comments on here a good set of eyes on the ground is the best advice given. It could be that your contact is not steady, or maybe you dont give and relax when the horse gives to you. Your pony does sound a naughty little 'B' though. Good luck as the old saying goes more leg less hand;);)
 
Hmmn OK I am fairly new on here and havent posted in this section before but can see that I am in the minority with my ideas on training so maybe its not the place for me? :)

I used to have a very difficult horse and used to ride other peoples 'problem' horses and back then would have agreed with you all but very long story short my mare had been vet checked etc and given the all clear and I had some real battles with her. She got to a point where one day she reared right up and over on top of me. Changed Vet and she was diagnosed with a neurological problem which quickly deteriorated and she was PTS. I have felt wrong about pushing her ever since and when I bought my next horse made the decision to take a different path.
So I could argue until I am blue in the face that it is my opinion that there are other ways to get a horse forward which usually solves the contact issues and that you dont need to use force and pony club kicking BUT I am not the arguing kind! ;)
 
Not having a go or trying to argue, but Charliejet you haven't actually offered any alternatives to what has been suggested, so how can people agree with you?
 
My horse constantly tries to drop me off the contact. I don't help the situation by a) not actually holding my reins and b) giving my elbows away all the time. Somehow I ride with a quite open hand, as if I was shaking someones hand - so the first thing I have to remember is to close my knuckles and then the next thing to remember is that my elbows belong to me and not my horse, she isn't getting them anymore. She hasn't been that impressed with the change in riding style, but it will get there. So for my horse she doesn't go into a contact as there wasn't one there for her to go into.

I blame my poor riding on playing mounted games for years, you tie a knot in your reins, leave them somewhere up round the horses ears and occasionally use them!
 
Goldenstar said:
Interesting discussion to which I'll add only one thing if you are ever working harder than the horse it's time to rethink your approach.
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absolutely, albeit sometimes you have to puff for 5mins to get 55mins of easy work, which is where im at now. he's getting quicker and quicker to take me forward and probably 3 days out of 5, is super forward from the word go :)
previous to this method i would be puffing for 40mins to get 10mins of good work before i died of exhaustion!
 
zizz said:
Not having a go or trying to argue, but Charliejet you haven't actually offered any alternatives to what has been suggested, so how can people agree with you?
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I did actually say in my first post that assuming the horse is physically OK (although even that can be hard to know 100% in my experience sadly) then I would look to the rider and check if they are blocking the horse as I find a lot of horse problems are either physical or rider error.

If you can rule both out then I would look to motivate the horse to want to work with me. So lots of variation in their work, inhand, lunging, hacking, jumping etc, transitions, lateral work and rein back really get them working from you seat and weight aids and using their behinds and listening for the next ask. I try to keep a steady light contact and dont worry too much about where my horses head is (within reason) as I find when they use their behinds correctly the contact usually improves.
For my sharp little mare I also use a food reward when teaching her something new she is the type that encouragement works far better for.

I must also apologise as there are plenty other good suggestions on this thread and I didnt mean to dismiss them, I just have a 'thing' about kicking so thats what stood out for me. sorry! I do hit my boot with a whip to make a noise or give a stronger leg aid for forwards if needed but not actually take my legs away from horse and boot. I am sure my current horse would dump me on the floor if i tried :)
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
absolutely, albeit sometimes you have to puff for 5mins to get 55mins of easy work, which is where im at now. he's getting quicker and quicker to take me forward and probably 3 days out of 5, is super forward from the word go :)
previous to this method i would be puffing for 40mins to get 10mins of good work before i died of exhaustion!
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That's exactly it you have to work in the right way at the right time.
So many things can cause " switch off in school syndrome" and you really need to see and probally feel it for yourself to work out the best plan to solve the issue.
It's very important with dressage horses to protect and nurture their desire to work in the school it's very sad when horses loose that desire and nothing nicer than seeing an older dressage horse who still loves it's work.
 
I actually have the opposite experience princess sparkle, in that the one kick type method can work in less extreme cases. Ime if a horse is just a bit unresponsive, not quite in front of the leg etc, then the method explained by siennamum, basically doing something once, whatever that may be, can have a positive effect. Whereas something extreme that is just shuffling along & completely unresponsive it doesn't. Such as one that needs pretty fair size nudges just to continue dawdling along, I think using one massive kick might work in the very short term, as in the next 3 or 4 strides, but soon the horse just becomes immune to the kicks as it was to the nudges.
 
I have already said that usually one sharp kick or a tap works, but in some cases the horse is not dead to the aid but a bit quirky and is testing the rider, they aren't dead to the aid, just working out who is in charge!
My horse is getting better and better, lighter and lighter to the leg, not because his reaction in his body is different but because I'm starting to change his mind set......does that make sense?
 
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