not happy with horses feet, what do you think?

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Fox07

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Not the best at uploading photos so hope pictures work... if not can someone tell me how to do it please :)
 
Not a lot of help here but I'll throw my tuppence worth in and bump this up till someone else comes along.

The backs look good to me - is that a wee bit of bruising growing out on her off side hind? I would be happy with them.

I dont like the fronts - they look a bit long and splayed at the front if that makes sense. Almost going kind of flat footed? Are they due for reshoeing? Seeing as how well the backs are looking I'd be tempted to try the fronts off too!
 
I too think the hinds are better than the fronts. The feet should be more upright than they are. Was there any reason for the side clips instead of a front toe clip? My has side clips on the front only because have been weaker this summer and the farrier wanted to keep his feet together.
 
Thank u for replies I did have her barefoot but was very footy and sore so put fronts on but her fronts seem to be going an odd angle,she was shod about 3weeks ago I think front clips on because she does dish
 
The shoes seem a little short to me and are providing very little heel support. Many farriers use shoes that are too short as it avoids horses over reaching and pulling them off.
 
There's no point asking for opinions on pics that hover above the hooves.

You need to get on your knees and take pics AT GROUND LEVEL.

Otherwise the angles give a false impression.

Sole views are also necessary to know what's going on :).

Also - history and a list of what the horse is eating and doing :).
 
Ok will do and repost pics,horse is 4yo broken in 9months,in light work mainly hacking occasional lesson (once fortnight,if that)currently on haylege and a scoop of spillers lo cal balancer,biotin and garlic once a day
 
please help, sorry I couldnt get any underneath pics tonihgt but battery ran out, surely these can not be right??
 
Backs look okay, but fronts I wouldn't be happy with. There's a lack of heel support and hoof looks rather splayed out front on. I'm afraid that's all I can say!
 
I'm going to have a go as a barefoot novice so please go with others judgement but they look:

Flared
Unsupported at the heel
Heel looks long

I'd take off shoes and address the diet. Once feet are right I'd then decide on shoes or not in conjunction with good farrier/trimmer. They look very long in the toe and it looks like the farrier is shoeing like that to try to compensate but the foot itself needs the attention....
 
I'm no expert, but here goes! Her hinds do look better than the fronts. I also feel the fronts are too sloping, and look almost concave towards the floor. The shoes look awful, there is a big gap between the front of her foot and the metal. I would be worried about debris getting trapped in that gap and causing problems. On the plus side, her feet look to be in good condition horn wise, I'd be tempted to take the shoes off and let the feet rest and grow down. Unless there's a reason she needs to be shod?
 
it looks like youre farrier may be trying to make the feet bigger? either that or there has been alot of horn growth recently as it looks like the bottom of the hoof has splayed, also the heels are at the wrong angle to the floor, making the hoof flat. Ask youre farrier why they have shod like this, ask if it would be beneficial to make the hoof more upright, and definately fit shoes which are going to give more heel support. Otherwise if the foot is trimmed properly, you might not need shoes, the workload should be sufficient to cope shoeless, although personally id prefer to shoe if the horse is footy (shoot me now) but not worth paying for shoes that arent necesscarily needed!
Back feet do look better, but have less tendency to go flat as horse carries more weight on the forehand.

Will you be turning youre horse away for winter as they are only 4? again, shoes might not be essential in this situation if they are trimmed better.
But asking youre farrier why would definately be my first call, they are afterall the professional.
 
Hello OP. Do you know why your horse went footy?

If she/he were mine, on the current diet my horse would be lame. Haylage and Spillers lo cal are not always that helpful if you want a sound barefoot horse.

If you are unable to provide an alternative diet and are unable to boot, so have decided to shoe that is fine. But you need shoes that are fit for purpose.

The current set appear (photos can be misleading) to allow the hoof to run forward and the heel to under run. Long term this won't do your horse any favours at all.

Solar shots (underneath) would be invaluable in helping us assess this situation.
 
I don't like what I'm seeing on the fronts either. The hinds are coming along, but I suspect the trim could have been more proactive on all of them.

When a picture needs to be taken from the ground, that means get the camera literally on the floor, directly from the side, 4' away and centered on the mid point between heel and toe. Then there's the solar shot, with hoof raised, camera 2' away and looking directly down on the center of the frog and the whole hoof in the picture. Then there's the heel shot, where you lift the hoof, let it hang by one hand cupping the front of the fetlock joint, get the camera angled, so that you see the heel tops and rest of the hoof to the toe in the background. The camera should catch as much of the fetlock and cannon as possible and whole hoof in the picture again. Then there's the solar/side shot, where you lift the hoof up, get right to the side/level and then raise up enough to see the depth of the groove at the apex. Each foot needs this series of shots.

These are the shots that are needed to do a good critique. With these, I cannot see the bottom of the hoof, so I'm not even beginning to see the real story. What I have been able to do is to show what needs to happen in order to have a well balanced hoof on there, no more. Without the solar shots, I can't get good dibs on the bone, nor tell what reason(s) are causing it, still perpetuating it and how to fix it.

This is a hind:
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The pathology on all 4 feet is called flare forward. The toe has migrated out front like a clown's foot, lengthening the breakover. Keep in mind that the goal is to get the hoof capsule tight to bone, so they can become one and get that pull forward off the toe. That far-out toe pulls the whole hoof forward with it, right back to the heels. This is why you see the black wedge of hoof gone from the toe and white wedge showing the heels to come back under the horse's descending weight and stand up better. As it is, the coronary band is way too steep because of lack of heel height. The heels are long enough, but pulled so far forward, that they just aren't high enough any more to support the back of the foot. You will see this more so on the fronts happening, because they are more seriously flared forward.
The reason that the hinds are better off, is because there is a transition line coming down the hoof to show the progress, though its been interrupted. The first section of the white brackets out front is tight growth to bone...the ideal. The #3 section is how far forward that toe is from #1. #2 is #3 pulling into it and taking it away from #1. The trick is to maintain the toe bevel, and that cannot be done when its locked in a shoe. When the horse breaks over that toe, there is tremendous torque. With the bevel, when the horse breaks over the toe, the torque is "on" that bevel and instead of like bending/pulling your fingernail backwards, it pushes straight back into the hoof, encouraging the toe to come back with every step....making the hoof round, not oval shaped. This brings the toe back and releases the heels and everything in between and lets it stand up, grow straight and support.

The two black lines on the hoof...the front is on a crack showing the run of it. It is the black colored bottom of the hoof that I have removed, (cleared the quarters) that is identically opposite and directly related to the arch in the coronary band and the existence of that crack. The quarters are like the arch of his foot and needs to be a credit card width OFF the ground, not the big convex shape of black that jams up into the hoof. (cause of sidebone) There could also be excess bars helping this, but can't see the solar side. The 2nd black line on the hoof behind the crack line is the angle its supposed to be...parallel with the new heel. The vertical line coming up from the heels is the descending weight, which should hit the back of the heel platforms dead on.

Flare forward is one of the hardest, longest pathologies to remediate, but, with freedom of being able to keep the toe bevel maintained and pulling the heels back as they come down will relieve and fix faster and padded boots will speed that up again, while you continue to ride. With the shoe, the wrong torque remains, is worse at the next setting and horse more lame on the ground than before. Its this torque that pulls down on the nose of the bone (P3) that kills concavity and puts the trim in a tight box for being able to promote. With the barefoot trim, the hoof is kept optimal and the padding in the boots tell that bone to get back up where it belongs with every step, promoting concavity greatly. The padded support is below the bone. Right now, the bone is hanging from the white line and down thru the middle of the shoe and the wrong torque is still on that toe. Its about shape....form is function.
It's P3's nose pulled down and killed concavity from flare forward that leaves her walking on her bone, plus the uncleared quarters jamming up into the corium around the bone inbetween the heel and toe. That's her soreness. Make sense? It's gotta make sense.

I hope that you will re-read this a couple of times to get the idea of it and what you are looking at. It takes far longer than 5 minutes to whip up these lines...hours, actually, with explanation. With this in mind, I am going to bed and will give the fronts due diligence tomorrow. :)

When you understand things, you know them and can better advocate for your horse. I hope this helps in that regard.
 
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A couple more things to note: The lines above the band, the front one is straighter delivery of hoof to ground and that straightness continued on to the ground because the hoof angle matches the fetlock angle exactly. The heel bulbs are more pumped up and stronger because of a working frog under it. See the shape that exists on the heel bulbs now? The lack of support at the back of the hoof has pulled the DDFT tighter and why it is flat shaped. Also, when the quarters are cleared and coronary band relaxed, the top of P3 will be there to meet it, right where its supposed to be.
 
Missyclare's given a lot of good advice, as well as a useful diagram. (You're not related to a TommyOnions, are you MC? :D)

I will add that a good mineral supplement, such as pro hoof/pro balance +, will never hurt, and may help the horse grow in a better connected hoof capsule. (That flare that is making the foot look like a bell shape, sweeping out towards the ground, is caused by a weak, stretched laminar connection in the hoof capsule.)

This is ime primarily dietary - too much sugar and starch, and imbalanced/inadequate mineral levels. This weakens the laminae, and allows mechanical forces to stretch and deform the hoof capsule. It looks worse on the shod feet because shoes force the horse to load peripherally (on the hoof wall) - putting all the weight of the horse on the already weakened laminar connection, and increasing the incorrect mechanical forces acting on the hoof.

It may well also be the cause of the footiness that prompted you to shoe in the first place ;).
 
To add to Twostroke, imo diet and exercize (comfortable of course)are keys that mustn't get lost in the mechanics of what is going on and needs to happen. Good lamina connection requires healthy lamina in the first instance. Improving all this takes time, another element that needs to be remembered.

Great lines etc. missyclare, reminds me of TO as well. :D
 
Can't add anything more to the information you have had.

All I will say is that you can't bully a healthy hoof by shoeing or trimming it into new shapes.

GROW the healthy hoof.

1) Provide an appropriate diet.

2) Take a break from shoes.

3) Allow movement (within comfort levels) and let the horse do all the hard work on remodeling.

If your horse's hooves are in this shape at 4 years old I shudder to think what he'll look like at 8 :eek:

Well done you for seeing that something isn't right and asking questions now.
 
Sorry, I mentioned shoes above and its the fronts with the shoes. No matter, the pathology is the same and it all applies. The fronts have a bigger hump to get over and this pic vs. the one above is a good example of how this progresses.

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This hoof hasn't started transitioning yet. The "ideal" angle a the front coronary band hasn't happened and there is no progrssion showing of the flare forward starting to grow out. It's pull right from the get go.
Think of the DDFT and the extensor tendon as a pulley system that should be in balance with each other. The coronary band is steeper than the hinds, with no arch and has cleared quarters below it, but the heel is even less supportive and lends to the steep angle at the back, as well as getting jammed up at the toe. When you have a wide toe wedge and long breakover, not only is the breakover late, but long in duration. At the last second, before the hoof leaves the ground (when torque is the greatest) the jam transfers from pulling to toe outward, to transferring to going up the front hoof wall and it increases as it does. (orange arrows) It jams into the band (orange dot). The curl of the way the hair lays there, may indicate the band is lumped up from this....being shoved up and is also lending to the steepness of the band at the front as well as the heels. This jam goes past this pinch point, straight to the knees and beyond. There's discomfort. With a shod/iron clad hoof at the ground, one would think that you are good to go, but if the pathology is still there and not corrected, its effects are still happening and the path of pathology can be long indeed, pinch pointing at every turn...knees, shoulder, withers, poll. There's a lot of soft tissue above the hoof to answer for as well. That pulley system must be balanced.
At the back of the foot, the wider white wedge of no heel has created a hoof print that is narrower at the ground than at the coronary band....not good...means the horse doesn't even have his full circumference of hoof to stand on. This trim does nothing to address and support the heel, and has been simply nailed to the toe right where it is...way out there..... a perpetuation of pathology and continued insult to the soft tissue above the hoof. Make sense? This scenario will continue and worsen until the shoes are pulled and the trim starts correcting and relieving things. Sorry, I know you just got them on, sigh. I would use this shoe time to find a better trimmer and pull them and start transition.
This pulled down at the back and shoved up at the front scenario also affects the bone. My bone positions are rough and only xrays will tell the truth. But, what I suspect may be happening, is that it has created a slight negative palmer angle. (bone lower at the back, than at the front. Note the length of the vertical yellow and blue lines showing this. This can really pull on the DDFT. the DDFT pull arrow is on the DDFT. It continues on down, wraps around the back of the hoof, under the bone and attaches to the bone in the middle between those yellow and blue vertical lines. Now imagine how a bone lower at the back, would be adding leveraged torque downward and increasing the pull on it....just standing there.
When you realize the effects of this pathology, you start to realize the large scope of discomfort involved to the horse. To me, this shoe job is unacceptable the way it is. The hinds have no discernible bevel either. With the toes still needing to come back on them, the bevel is what is going to promote it. This trim looks like a pasture trim for a shoe, not the horse, and even though the shoe hasn't been applied, the trim is not correcting. Actually the hinds looks they are very close to being too short. You don't bring back the toe by shortening it. That brings it down, not back. It brings P3's nose even closer to the ground, while leaving the breakover way out there, right where it always was. Lowering the toe also takes sole at the toe behind the wall and making it thinner, right where it is the thinnest of all. Not the way to create strength for future concavity. The sole line on the bottom of the hoof is the director of the story going on and if you rasp it, you are literally ripping pages out of the book. This is dictating, not listening and that's the difference between the trim being for the shoe, or for the horse.

If this were my horse, I would use the shoe time (no longer than 4 weeks) to find a better trimmer that knows his stuff. Once the trim is done, I would measure and order the right size boots for the fronts. The hinds are ok. I would get cheap childrens foam play mats, cut to fit the boot, using the hoof as the template, put one full pad on the bottom (on top of the one that came with it and another 1/2 pad on the back half of the foot on top of the full pad. This will see soft support for the heels without jamming them up to his armpits. Then with comfort of boots to create proper mechanism and avoid abscesses, I would move the horse and work the trim so that he can get his own ducks in order. This is where the eyebrows go up.

The padding needs to be applied immediately when the shoes come off. Since you can't order the boot until the trim is done, I would make my own padding with the play mats, vet wrap and duct tape. This immediate protection is very, very important. If you put a ruler across the hoof from side to side and measure down from there to the bottom of the groove at the apex and its 1/2" or less, you must protect.
Trace the hoof and cut the pad out to fit. Sit the half pad on top of the whole pad. (The half pad will be against the hoof) Put one long strip across the middle of the pad from side to side to hold it on. Then using 1/2 a roll of vet wrap, wrap the whole bottom of the hoof and up over the heel bulbs like a sandal strap. Then you make a duct tape bottom to cover it. Never mind how high up the hoof/leg the tape ends, you'll deal with that later. Run the duct tape over the heel bulbs as well. The vet wraps keep the tape off the hoof, which can really be nasty to get off and it also provides air flow under the tape. Put a couple of extra tape wraps around the toe at the ground. This will be first place to wear and you'll realize just how much more torque is at the toe from it. When you get this all on, press with your hands for good seal and stick. Then cut everything off 1/4" below the coronary band. Leave what is going over the heel bulbs, but cut a 1" slit down the back between the heel bulbs to relieve any tension. This will last for 2 days, but I recommend that the pad be changed in 24 hours, with a few hours in a dry environment to give the hoof a chance to dry out. A soggy hoof promotes thrush and also affects the strength integrity of the hoof, so the torque on it has even more detrimental effect.
The boots I suggest are the ones I have....good find. They breathe, are open for any pad configurations and are really easy to put on and off.
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx
This boot is excellent for rehab, but you can't ride in them, but there are other good choices on that site as well.

The good news is that I see no indications of laminitis on these pictures, although the nutrition you do provide properly will feed the healing. What I am seeing so far, is all torque and pull from an imbalanced trim over time.

Hope this helps...
 
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I really must applaud (and thank) missyclare for the time and effort she is putting in to make these posts. I shall read and digest this latest one later.
 
Aw GEEZ! I posted a long one on the hinds last night and its not here! I don't want to even think about the time wasted right now! grrr!:mad:

Oops, there it is on page 2, I'm happy now!
 
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I also want to thank you for your very interesting posts MC.

I wondered if you have noticed a link between under-run heels, long toes (therefore later breakover) and horses having to wear over-reach boots all the time to prevent shoes being pulled off?
 
This is the sort of thread that should be stickied and archived. Invaluable information both form Oberon, as usual, and from MissyClare. Def a thread I wll bookmark and come back to. Thank you.
 
Thank you MC, very interesting and echo what others have said about it needing to be stickered!
 
Being a little uneducated on feet... I shall be reading MC's post a few times (cant digest unless repeatedly read). Brilliant, thankyou MC
 
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