Not horsey, but what are your views on animal testing?

[fburton]

As an owner of beagles, much used & abused in laboratories around the world, I am totally against the use of mammals in testing.

And yet the owners of cattle, much used & abused in kitchens around the world, are totally for the use of mammals in cuisine. It's a strange world...

 

[JFTDWS]

As an owner of beagles, much used & abused in laboratories around the world, I am totally against the use of mammals in testing.

Unfortunately, there is no viable alternative. I don't see that it is any more ethically acceptable to use a non-mammalian animal in the place of a dog, and it would be considerably less useful in terms of the results - they're just too different to give a decent indication of drug efficacy or to gather any pharmacokinetic data. One of the reason dogs are used in place of (or rather, usually after) mouse models, is that dogs have the vomit reflex, which can seriously affect the bioavailability of orally administered drugs (as well as being a debilitating side effect for some medications).

Amymay, in silico modelling is a wonderful and productive field - and I hope that it will certainly dramatically reduce the use of animals in some areas of research, it will never be able to replace them entirely (imho). It is too great a leap from testing a drug in an abstract computer model to administering it to a patient. There will always be unforseen adverse effects.

 

[itsonlyme]

Our lab beagles aren't abused at all! Quite the opposite! They're only normally used as blood donors and stuff for dmpk studies. They have the most amazing kennel set-up and communal yard areas with toys up to their eyeballs. Far from what the activists lead u to believe, being cooped up in single-housed barren cages.

 

[Jesstickle]

Our lab beagles aren't abused at all! Quite the opposite! They're only normally used as blood donors and stuff for dmpk studies. They have the most amazing kennel set-up and communal yard areas with toys up to their eyeballs. Far from what the activists lead u to believe, being cooped up in single-housed barren cages.

the beagles I met were a seriously happy bunch of mutts. Gang housed, allowed out to play in communal areas in swarms, no different from any kennelled working dog from what I could see. I think the dogs are probably the happiest of all the lab animals tbh.

Some of ours were used for inhalation studies and some for IV infusions too. But they were all trained to do it as a job and only those who took to the work were expected to do it.

Loads of the 'spare' animals were taken home by staff as well

 

[fburton]

My idea:

All prisoners that are on 'Death Row' or have life sentences, Test it all on them. They gave up their human rights with the act they did to get there so bugger them.

And lets face it if it kills them who really cares?

Did you happen to watch the documentary broadcast by the BBC in 1987 called "Fourteen Days in May"? Perhaps you are too young to have seen it. It was about a young guy called Edward Earl Johnson who was convicted of murdering a policeman and raping an old woman, and served 8 years on Death Row. They showed the gas chamber being tested using a stack of caged rabbits - horrendously frantic but mercifully brief struggling after they realized they weren't breathing pure air any more. It made me wonder what it would be like for a human being.

Near the end of the documentary, after a number of stays of execution and reprieve attempts, Johnson was finally choked to death. Following his execution, quite compelling evidence was presented to show that the 26 year old had been framed and was innocent - something he had pleaded (rather desperately, it has to be said) all along. But let's face it, who really cares? Indeed, bugger him!

 

[Niraf]

I am also opposed to organ transplants and will not receive a blood transfusion even if required after an operation. (I have refused one).

The question of ethics can be brought down to a basic level, again, all products must be labelled whether they have GM ingredients or whether they are tested on animals, then the consumer - who is the one after all who is paying in the end, has the right to decide for themselves !

I do not purchase any products made in China.

I also only buy badger friendly honey, and to the best of my ability organically produced vegetables and free range (from a farm nearby - not from the shops) eggs.

I believe in the mantra - to your own self be true and try to live up to the dictates of your (my) conscience.

.

 

[fburton]

I believe in the mantra - to your own self be true and try to live up to the dictates of your (my) conscience..

All well and good as long as your personal choices harm no one else.

 

[Fly_By_Wire]

I am also opposed to organ transplants and will not receive a blood transfusion even if required after an operation. (I have refused one).

.

Out of genuine interest, why not blood transfusions? Surely they're given by willing donors and harm no one?

 

[Fly_By_Wire]

the beagles I met were a seriously happy bunch of mutts. Gang housed, allowed out to play in communal areas in swarms, no different from any kennelled working dog from what I could see. I think the dogs are probably the happiest of all the lab animals tbh.

Some of ours were used for inhalation studies and some for IV infusions too. But they were all trained to do it as a job and only those who took to the work were expected to do it.

Loads of the 'spare' animals were taken home by staff as well

I was hoping someone could come up with reliable experiences like this I only saw rats, mice and fish while I was there, I'm glad that dogs get just as high a standard of care as they do! I was a bit concerned that it would be more difficult to meet the dog's needs compared to a rat, but I'm glad that they are well looked after

 

[Ladydragon]

I am also opposed to organ transplants and will not receive a blood transfusion even if required after an operation. (I have refused one).

Always baffles me how anyone can be opposed to organ transplants - it is a gift someone chooses to give... But each to their own I guess... I presume you've made it clear to your medical practitioner that you should never be considered as a recipient no matter how dire the situation...

Most of what you've listed I adhere to myself...but, I'd cheerfully sacrifice the cutest bunch of puppies on the planet for valid research that would offer the realistic chance of a cure or even a good quality of life to those suffering with terminal or chronically disabling conditions... Even with the wonderful advances and personal innovations in creating chemical cocktails to try and alleviate terrible suffering - it often falls short...

 

[LollyDolly]

Ok, so I'm not going to pretend to know the in's and out's of drug testing (psychologist, not a biologist!) but I feel the need to mention what I feel is the elephant in the room.
So,

Stem cell research?

 

[Littlelegs]

Niraf- if you are against having an organ transplant yourself if required then fair enough but are you really opposed to others having them? And would you rather nobody else had blood transfusions either?

 

[Jesstickle]

I was hoping someone could come up with reliable experiences like this I only saw rats, mice and fish while I was there, I'm glad that dogs get just as high a standard of care as they do! I was a bit concerned that it would be more difficult to meet the dog's needs compared to a rat, but I'm glad that they are well looked after

Well, I was just a visitor. Sounds like itsonlyme is your go to girl for the real inside picture

But yep, honestly, I saw nothing at all that made me think the dogs were anything other than happy.

 

[Ladydragon]

Ok, so I'm not going to pretend to know the in's and out's of drug testing (psychologist, not a biologist!) but I feel the need to mention what I feel is the elephant in the room.
So,

Stem cell research?

A bit torn... Not in love with the idea of embryonic research... Especially after it was apparently 'impossible' to collect the umbilical cords from my last deliveries that I cheerfully tried to donate... I guess that's a personal viewpoint though on the ethics of using 'early life' cell structures...

Wherever my son had surgical excisions or samples taken (various hospitals around England & Wales) I always made sure some was sent to a lady in the University of Wales hospital undertaking research into his condition - to me it was important to people coming behind us...

But...I also have to admit to having been in the position where I would have sold my soul to the devil and agreed to absolutely any form of research on myself or virtually anyone/thing else if it could have prevented a disease getting the better of us... I know, from my own circumstances, that to object to valid, scientifically sound research, would be extremely hypocritical - even whilst I can acknowledge some distaste both of that desperation and the necessary practices...

 

[Littlelegs]

I don't know much about stem cell research so correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik it is literally human life at cellular level. To my way of thinking it isn't wrong nor does it bother me, but I can see why for some they might find it unethical. Although I can't imagine what it must really be like to be in Ladydragons position where its my child thats ill, I know as a parent I would be willing to agree to anything regardless of personal ethics if I thought it would change things for my child.

 

[MagicMelon]

I am against it, very much so. In my opinion they should be testing things on pedos and murderers that are locked up, not innocent animals.

Totally agree with this!

With regard to cosmetics, I have a list of brands that I refuse to use as they test on animals. The ones I really find odd are the animal feed companies who test horribly on animals - IAMS for example are horrific...

 

[fburton]

Out of genuine interest, why not blood transfusions? Surely they're given by willing donors and harm no one?

It is prohibited by at least one religion. Jehovah's Witnesses is one group/sect that I know about because a fair amount of upset was caused amongst other family members when a cousin's wife's parent refused to accept one and subsequently died as a result. Seen from afar, it seemed to me a selfish choice, although this person was simply adhering to their earnestly held religious tenets.

 

[fburton]

With regard to cosmetics, I have a list of brands that I refuse to use as they test on animals. The ones I really find odd are the animal feed companies who test horribly on animals - IAMS for example are horrific...

What do IAMS do which is so horrible? Genuinely interested to know...

 

[Littlelegs]

Regarding Jehovah's witnesses that is correct, but I thought Niraf might have had other reasons & was interested what they might be. With children requiring blood transfusions, if the parent refuses, at least in life & death situations they can over ride the parents decision & do it anyway. Up to adults what they choose, & sorry if I offend anyone but I cannot begin to comprehend not wanting your child to live. (but I do know not all Jehovah's witnesses follow that rule regarding their children).

 

[holzrokz]

Very interesting topic, love a good ethical debate

As a child/young teenager I was very much against animal testing being a fanatical animal lover, ill informed and of course swayed by animal rights propaganda. I've always loved science though and so that became a bit of an issue, especially since I started a scientific degree.

Since thenIi guess I have understood more about it and seen (although only on television) what the labs are really like - and also seen just how crazy and extremist they can be!

Now I work in a lab for my placement year (although a hospital lab and not research) I see far too many patients with cancer diagnosis, and my auntie has multiple sclerosis, so my view has totally changed. The animals are clearly treated well as many people have said on here, and it is probably much better for them than it would be if they were privately owned in a lot of cases! I do dread to think what happens abroad though. We are a nation of animal lovers in comparison to many countries in the world.

I also agree in that you can't be that against it if you have taken a single drug in your life, as they all have been tested on animals at some stage. I do not agree with using prisoners either, and nor would it ever be possible to replace animals with them. Many lab rats especially are inbred in order to get their genetics as similar as possible. Nor can we use bankers We cannot tarnish everyone due to the consequences of the actions of some.

I don't think however that i will ever be able to work in a lab that uses animals to research - as previously said many of the unsuitable animals are taken home by employees and I'm too soft for that kind of thing. I would definitely end up with my own farm

 

[Ladydragon]

Regarding Jehovah's witnesses that is correct, but I thought Niraf might have had other reasons & was interested what they might be.

I *think*, as you mention, transfusion is disallowed on religious grounds for JW's but organ transplants are not... That's an individual call, albeit on the understanding that the procedure must be 'bloodless'...