Not in foal

[Anastasia]

Well you are certainly not alone with breeding problems. We only have 3 out of 10 mares confirmed in foal and we still need to get the other 3 scanned for their later dates.

It is SOOO FRUSTRATING!!! These are mares being done by AI and natural and both are giving us problems.

We have never had a year where we are in July and still attempting to get mares in foal.

Arrrggghhhhhhhhhhh...................do you suppose if you bred gerbils that it would be the same problem, or rabbits.........as they both seem to multiply without any problems..........

 

[Gonetofrance]

I'm so glad I read this thread as in one way I'm not alone, but by the same token it's not too reassuring, is it..........

My mare has gone to one of the three main Haras Nationaux in France, and has been AI'd a third time. THe stallion is only AI. I'm desperately hoping she's taken and that the scan will show a babbit when I go back in 2 weeks.
Stupidly, I decided not to send her until May, as I didn't want a foal any earlier than April........hah, fat chance.......!
The stud suggested that I use one of their other stallions and cover her naturally the next time if she's not in foal, but the others are not what I want to breed her with, so it's a bit of a quandary.......
You'd think in France the weather would be a bit more helpful, wouldn't you.........

 

[Janetterose]

Mines been gone since April 20 and still no foal. She has been covered again this week so fingers crossed but I have been without a horse for nearly 12 weeks - what a nightmare.

 

[sw123]

Mines been at stud since the beginning of may, initially scanned with triplets, 1 absorbed, 1 was pinched, at 30 days the other had gone. Just tried again and its 12 days an nothing. Nightmare! Don't know whether to try again with the same stallion or whether to go for somethign else last minute. Its getting a bit late in the season for my liking but she missed last year so don't want to miss agian!

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
The stud suggested that I use one of their other stallions and cover her naturally the next time if she's not in foal...

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! WHY? WHY? WHY?

 

[Fahrenheit]

Probably because they aren't a good AI Technician or specialist vet and are having to result to a less effective method and blaming the mare and the weather rather than their efficiency to achieve pregnancies!

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
AI has been PROVED to be more successful in achieving pregnancies than natural covering, over and over again. The only reason you should use natural covering over AI is if you want less chance of getting a pregnancy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Andypandy can you give me links to these stats as they would be interesting reading?

Whether it is any mammal........how can AI possibily achieve more pregnancies than natural. I agree that you need someone very qualified at AI to get good results but I dont believe that adding a human into the equation necessarily gets the better results.

A lot comes down to the stallion and mare as well. As soon as you collect semen you are reducing your chance, then with chilled and frozen, again all limiting your chances of success.

I have had mares at top Repro facilities (in Holland and Germany) where it has still taken several attempts to get them in foal, yet when covered naturally they have conceived first time. The mares are healthy and the semen is apparently "very good", yet it has taken several attempts to hold. We have had mares into our stud who just will not take with frozen semen, yet have taken with natural first time.

AI is great for choice of stallions, or for mares who dont travel, or are nervous etc, or for stallions competing or for safety of horses, but I have spoken to several vets who all say that you cannot beat natural........because that is what it is .............a natural process.........no human intervention................just sperm going direct from stallion to mare...........which was what mother nature intended.

Horses, humans and the like have all managed to breed and evolve for hundreds of years before AI came on the go, and of course AI technicians or those involved in the process are going to advocate it, otherwise they would be out of a job.........

There are always risks when it comes to any breeding. We have been breeding for many years and have lost foals, and have had friends to who lost mares. You cannot cover every single aspect no matter how hard you try.

 

[Anastasia]

Could not edit my post, by the following was taken from an American Vet who specialises in breeding, this was regarding QH breeding:

[ QUOTE ]
”Regarding AI versus natural cover…………….

“I think your answer to your question lies in your data. Natural seems to be far better than any assisted breeding program. Somehow “Nature” got it right. That is not to say that intense management can’t come close, but will be difficult to exceed the results that one can expect when animals are allowed to do what they were supposed to be doing! Never saw a mare get bred from a box of semen, but if placed in her at the right time, and there are no issues with the extender, transfer of infection, fertility issues from shipping, chilling, temperature shock etc., and the list could go on for several pages, then perhaps a mare will get pregnant from this “artificial” means.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Gonetofrance]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably because they aren't a good AI Technician or specialist vet and are having to result to a less effective method and blaming the mare and the weather rather than their efficiency to achieve pregnancies!

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm.........if you'd read my post, she's at, as I said, one of the three National Studs in France, at Pompadour. They are set up to be the AI breeding centre for mostly the whole of Central France. They stand 20 or so stallions, and are the main stud for the AA bloodstock in France. I would think they have just a bit of a clue what they're up to.


AndyPandy, I have no idea why they suggested an in hand cover, I did ask, but the high speed French rather blew me away!! The stallion I'm trying to use, Yarlands Summersong, is AI only, as are the other sport horse stallions, and the in hand ones are only TB or AA, neither of which I want to use.
I know that there are two schools of thought on natural covering, but my hands on experience of breeding is negligible, so I can't make a judgement myself.
I'm just keeping my fingers crossed!!

 

[the watcher]

Just wanted to add something to maybe make one or two of you feel a bit more positive. My friends pony went to a stud last summer, was scanned and was said to not be in foal (stallion was running with the mares). So she was ridden all winter and through to about six weeks ago when she seemed to go off the idea of work, although she really didn't look very different. In fact it took an internal exam by the vet to confirm that she IS in foal, and due any day now

 

[AndyPandy]

Natrual covering... I think this term is a bit misleading. I think I would like to categorise three different types of breeding:

*Natural Breeding - where a herd runs in a field, stallions cover mares totally out of choice. In this case, if an infertile stallions covers a mare, and is not successful, a more fertile stallion may cover her and this may lead to a pregnancy. In this case, fertility is selected for, and the genes linked to fertility are carried to the next generation. This is what happened all the time until humans began to intervene in around 1700 (In fact, even earlier in the Middle East - something scary like from 1300). From this point forward, evolution has played less and less of a role, as humans choose which stallion and mare to use regardless of fertility and other evolutionary traits. This is what "nature" intended.

*"Natural Covering"/Breeding-in-Hand - A stallion and mare are chosen, and then are allowed to run in a field, or the stallion is led to the mare and encouraged to mount in hand. The mechanics here are what nature intended, but you have removed the natural selection element by choosing a stallion and mare regardless of fertility. If it doesn't work, you try again, and eventually, unless the stallion is totally infertile, Lady Luck will let you have a foal from this pre-selected couple.

*Artificial Insemination - semen is collection from the stallion and inseminated into the mare at an appropriate time. There are several reasons why AI in better than "Natural Covering", and why it has the potential to be, and often is, more successful than Natural Covering.

I was AI-ing a mare a few weeks ago, and when I finished, a crazy lady from across the way shouted "Much better than a dirty, great, stinking penis, eh!?". She was right, on several counts.

1) There is a great deal of potential for injury in natural covering. Both kicking-type injuries, and reproductive injuries to mare and stallion - e.g. vaginal/cervical trauma, and cheeswire-type injuries to the stallion's penis.

*With AI, you remove the chance of injury in this way.

2) The stallion's penis is often quite dirty. A fantastic breeding ground for bacteria, but not quite as nice a place as the mare's vagina and uterus; so lucky for those bacteria who make it from the penis to the vagina, or even better, the uterus - they'll have a great time, and do the mare no favours - think at best no pregnancy, at worst no more foals ever (from a really nasty infection).

*With AI, the stallion's penis is washed before collection, and the semen can be extended with a buffer containing antibiotics, which help to destroy bacteria in the semen.

3) Upon ejeculation in natural covering, the penis is thrust up against the cervix (if the stallion's aim is good). Hopefully, the mare's cervix will be nice and open, and SOME of the semen will hopefully be pushed through the cervix into the uterus. Uterine contractions then push the semen into the uterine horns towards the oviducts.

*With AI, the semen is passed directly through the cervix into the uterus, maximising the number of sperm cells that get into the uterus, and therefore can come into contact with egg.

4) With natural covering, the semen passes directly from the testes into the mare. There is no chance to see if the semen contains motile sperm, or if there are any problems with that particular ejaculate, or the stallion in general. This means that an infertile stallion can be used to cover mares naturally, with few or no pregnancies resulting from the covering. Take the example the stallion George Washington recently - used to cover loads of mares, no pregnancies, turns out he's infertile - the results of modern breeding - NOT due to AI, but because fertility has not been selected for in today's "natural covering" breeding programmes.

*With AI, semen can be assessed for parameters that are related to fertility (like sperm count/concentration, motility, morphology etc.)

The problem with AI is bad management of the mares. People don't bother to understand the mare's cycle fully, or how to manage the cycle, so they just rely on natural covering.

We've had 100% success with AI this season, and only one mare didn't take - she was done naturally. She's just been AI'd now, together with intense management of her cycling, so she should be pregnant.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Thanks Andy Pandy, I would just like to add that the stats from my own stallions have convinced me that AI is better as well as reducing risk of injury and infection etc and the fact that you are putting the semen into the uterus direct (and only the semen).

On a direct comparison of natural (in hand covering) and Fresh AI for one of my stallions.

92% mares pregnant on first attempt with Fresh Semen AI(including a mare that had been treated for endometritis and a mare that had never got pregnant in 5 years of trying with natural with the best vet treatment going, as well as other problem or older mares)

80% mares pregnant total (could be more than 1 attempt for each mare) with natural covering (inhand)

I haven't picked the best results either, this is the stallion that covered the most mares, hence giving the best comparison on the results.

 

[Gonetofrance]

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with AI is bad management of the mares. People don't bother to understand the mare's cycle fully, or how to manage the cycle, so they just rely on natural covering.

We've had 100% success with AI this season, and only one mare didn't take - she was done naturally. She's just been AI'd now, together with intense management of her cycling, so she should be pregnant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant, AndyPandy, thanks for that information.
Can I ask you a bit more about managing the cycling? My mare is going to the stud, scanned until she is ready, AI'd and then they phone me when she comes out of season and I bring her home (just 35 mins away). I then return her in 14 days, they scan her, and when not in foal she was left for them to redo the AI. She's one of those mares that shows next to nothing when in season.
I am sure the semen is fresh or chilled, as the stallion is there.
They have the full set up, the stock type stalls with the scanner on wheels behind the stalls, and there is always a vet there as well as the stud manager.
I can't ask the questions I usually would because my French is not up to it. I did ask if they thought bringing her home in the interim was perhaps not helping, but they said it would make no difference. (I understood that much!)
Is there anything I am missing?

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with AI is bad management of the mares. People don't bother to understand the mare's cycle fully, or how to manage the cycle, so they just rely on natural covering.

[/ QUOTE ]

AndyPandy I think this is a very sweeping statement to make. The lady I had my mare at in Germany is very highly regarded when it comes to equine reproduction, am sure she would love to hear your synopsis on her work.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
We've had 100% success with AI this season

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, can I ask how many mares you actually AI'd? We had a vet locally who claims to get 99% in foal, but when you looked at the amount of mares he had they were hardly high enough to give a true reflection, IMHO.

 

[AndyPandy]

Only 40 or so mares, so I'm not sure if that's enough to give statistical significance. It is a sweeping statement yes, but in the UK, I think it's fair. In this country, most people do not use proper techniques or management. Who is the expert in Germany?

 

[Anastasia]

HorseGroupie, I am not denying your facts but are the stats in comparison with exactly the same mare and stallion combination (i.e. like for like)?? One analyst told me that it has to be like for like to be a true comparison. Or are you just going on the numbers each year your stallion did by AI or in-hand, and the reflection of what has conceived?

 

[Anastasia]

Dr Bonny Jacobs, "my expert" as you have called her is a VERY highly regarded breeder and vet in the Hanover Region of Germany, with several stallions she has bred over the past few years stationed at the Celle State Stud.

Dr Jacobs Practice do more than 400 inseminations a year primarily in the field of breed and fertility management. They are also contracted veterinary surgeons to the Hanoverian Association, and also provide veterinary care to many famous studs, including the state stud at Celle.

These people are what I would class as "experts in their field of work" and I would give them all my mares without any hesitation.

Nobody is infallible when it comes to breeding whether it be vet, "AI expert" or stud farm. None of us can give a 100% guarantee when it comes to breeding, we all just have to do our best with what is available to us.

I would like to say that I do agree in whole with what you are saying, but your sweeping statements are just that "sweeping statements". Unless you have statistics from every breeding operation from different parts of the world how are you to know what they do and dont do, and that includes in the UK as well.

Would also like to add re the injury to stallions............there are many that have had to be PTS or gelded through injuries during collection of semen, so there is no fail safe in that either.

 

[AndyPandy]

I base my posts on experience of British, Amercian, Continental and Latin-American breeding programmes, and published primary literature, and my own research. When I have been asked about problems with breeding programmes, the problems, without exception (in about 50 cases this year, all around the world) are due to management of the mare, or poor handling of the semen. Of course, nothing is foolproof, especially not with horses

My lengthy posts etc. are merely a reflection of how I feel about AI - it is an extremely useful procedure which allows us to control as many variables as is currently possible, helping to acheive higher pregnancy rates. The most frustrating thing for me is when people say "My mare NEEDS to be covered natrually, she won't take with AI". This is irritating conjecture, nothing more.

Otherwise, I agree with your comments, Anastasia. However, today's experts are often tomorrow's recalcitrant fuddy-duddies, and we must look at ways of improving breeding - and as far as I can see from the most recent research, AI will soon be consistantly better at producing pregnancies that natural covering; especially when their are fertility issues with the stallion's sperm

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
Natural Breeding - where a herd runs in a field, stallions cover mares totally out of choice. In this case, if an infertile stallions covers a mare, and is not successful, a more fertile stallion may cover her and this may lead to a pregnancy.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know that? I was under the impression that only one dominant stallion runs with a herd and that all younger colts are run out of the herd by the dominant male when they start showing sexual maturity towards the mares.

I have very mixed views as always

and value everyone's opinions, it makes for interesting discussion..

Anyway we worked with a "specialist Equine reproduction vet" last year and the man drove me absolutely nuts!

Everything had to be done a la "military" precision...

"Ah lovely, uterine oedema and follicle development is perfect the shape of the follicle and thickness of the outer wall shows that she will ovulate very shortly, we simply don't have time to order semen, we will have to use a resident stallion and inseminate NOW or we will miss her.....

mmmmmmmm well she was pinning her ears and squealing violently and striking out at the stallion earlier that morning I find that hard to believe I mutter to myself.....

....Three days later and still no ovulation but mare was suddenly in lurve with lover boy....... (please give mother nature some credit

)

We were trawled through the rigmarole of ovuplant, short cycling, hormone treatment, prostaglandin, oxitocin, post ovulation and pre ovulation wash outs, inspection of semen prior to insemination, deep horn insemination when, surprise surprise mares caught him out and ovulated prior to his predicted hour caslicks, removal of ovuplant from the vulva after injection, post ovulation scans, corrilon injections, penstrep, the list goes on and on an on... sure he knew his stuff had done his homework, knew the text books inside out, had attended all the J Pycock talks and equine reproduction seminars, read all the latest research and inturn I admit I learned heaps from him too!! But!!!! what really makes me ponder is that after a bill of well over £7000 for 12 mares, we did not have a higher success rate of pregnancies than using our usual method of teasing and single natural cover. Infact fewer pregnancies were achieved.

This year we are back to using the three methods used in prior years, AI using frozen semen at our local AI centre who breed over 150 mares every year with varying results.

Single natural service for the mares that we know stand for the stallion even with foal at foot but only when "She" dictates she is ready. 100% success

Single AI without the use of scanning when the mare shows well in season when teased, as we are aware that fresh semen from the stallion has an extended shelf life in the mare compared to chilled extended. (something I feel has not been mentioned in the favour of natural service) - so, perhaps their is some truth in the statement "My mare NEEDS to be covered naturally, she won't take with AI........ as we also need to bear in mind that some mares will have an inflammatory reaction to condensed semen when the seminal fluid is removed..

I think we all need to keep a very open mind when talking statistics on a whole, - look at the Hannoverian societies published stats (please correct me if I am wrong Anastacia) but I believe they published in this months catalogue that out of 18000 breedings 12000 were achieved..... (66%) that to me is a far more realistic figure!

 

[Anastasia]

Opie you are correct in your statistics regarding the Hanoverians.

One also just needs to look at the KWPN and the amount of coverings each stallion does in a year versus the foals on the ground.

Looking at the stats for 2005 for Indoctro for instance (as all his breedings would be AI) - He was bred to 395 mares in 2004 and of these 246 births were registered in 2005, this works out at 62% of those mares bred to by AI had a live foal.

As Opie has highlighted well and as I have said, one has to go with what works......and AI does not work for all.

 

[magic104]

As some people know my mare went off to the stallion Feb last year. She was a maiden mare & what I was not informed about was that the stallion was a virgin himself. Though the mare showed as ready the stallion was so loud & enthusiastic he frightened the hell out of her. The problem was the manager of the stallion did not think to let me know this & was quiet happy to take my working livery fee & for me to pay for countless injections etc. The mare came back & was shown to be fine no reason at all why she should not be covered. By the time she went back, the stallion had moved yards, but again they omitted to inform me that the stallion was frightening the mare & that is why she panicked. So again she came home without me knowing the full reason but plenty of wasted money. I then booked her into my vet dropped her off on the Monday, she was scanned daily I went & collected the seman on the Saturday which is where I witnessed his behaviour & where I had it confirmed that he would frighten a maiden & therefore was not suitable to cover naturally. Delivered it back to my vets & the mare was inseminated & foaled Jun 6 this year. The AI plan was a fraction of the costs that I had already paid out. The year before my other mare came back covered in blood where she had been kicked & had a 4in slash down the inside of her hind leg. I will never send a mare to stud again despite never having a problem prior to these two. You believe what people tell you even though you know they are just after your money. I was not surprised the previous yard lost the stallion & even less to hear they had gone out of business. I think each circumstance has to be treated as suites, but I will stick with AI.

 

[sallyf]

Not everyone does it for the money.
I have my stallions because i wont send my mares away and as some are TB's AI is out of the question.
We take outside mares and i do advertise a little but it isnt the be all and end all that we take mares in.
In fact we often encourage people to do AI at home as then i dont have to employ any staff and it keeps the work load down to one i can deal with satisfactrily.
This year as i am due an operation at the end of the month we have strictly limited the amount of outside mares we have taken in.
In fact if someone came along with a really nice mare i would cover it for next to nothing.
So yes there are many studs out there that are just interested in numbers and money but not all of us are like it.
We are going round finding rugs for visitors that have come without and all are fed everyday.
So some of us do it for the love and satisfaction of sending someones mare home in foal in probably better condition than it arrived.

 

[magic104]

Sorry my mistake, should have made it clear. The stallion was being managed by a livery come selling yard. Stupidly I thought the owner of this business knew what she was doing & knew about breeding. This was not the case, & my mare was being blamed for the delay in getting her in-foal. Having come a year after taking a mare back from a stud who never mentioned the injury to the mare, my views on sending mares away have changed. I apologise for giving the impression that all studs are out to make money, that was not the intention. My views on AI have changed though & I for one would choose the route, just for the fact that I have more control over how my mare is treated/kept. I did state
"I will never send a mare to stud again despite never having a problem prior to these two. You believe what people tell you even though you know they are just after your money." That comment was directed at the manager of the stallion used last year & not meant as a sweaping statement, again my apolgogies for not being clearer.

 

[Anastasia]

Magic it is a shame that you had such a bad experience, but in your own words, it was “a livery come selling yard”, not a Studfarm geared up for mares coming in to get the appropriate service (not that this can always be a guarantee either).

We had a problem a few years ago with an incoming mare that stood wonderfully for the stallion to cover in-hand. We then put her in the stocks for scanning. Just as she went forward into the stocks and we closed the small door behind her she went completely ballistic (i.e. did not stop kicking out with front and back legs until she got out the stocks). She totalled the stocks (as she did everything so quickly we just never had a chance to open them at either side), landed on top of me (i.e. scanner on ground, stocks in bits on top of scanner, me on top of this and the mare on top of me!!), and in her blind panic she took the skin off three of her legs and then bolted into one of our fields. I was then helped up by the two vets and ended up with several broken ribs.

The reason we had two vets was that one was there for scanning and the other for vaccinating some of the horses (from different vet practices). The one with the scanner was looking rather depressed at his scanner on the floor under everything and my own vet was more concerned as to whether I had knackered my spleen!!

I phoned the owner after and unfortunately when she booked in the mare she failed to inform me that the mare did not like vets, or particularly enclosed spaces. In the end we managed to get her into a stable, tend to her wounds (thankfully they were all just superficial) and “eventually” got her scanned while in the stable.

Obviously had we known the mares "issues" we would never have put her in that situation. We would have just set up the scanner in a seperate stable in the first place to keep her stress free.

I believe that to get this particular mare inseminated (i.e. if the owners had decided to go down the AI route) would have taken considerable time and money considering she hated vets and did not like going into stocks, yet was very comfortable with in-hand covering.

Also with regards to injury this was one of the worst I sustained and it was not even doing the in-hand covering, only the scanning! It was also the one and only time a mare "touching a lot of wood here" has ever left our Studfarm with an injury.

Like Sallyf, in all our years breeding 99.9% of mares leave us in the same or if not better condition than when they arrive. We treat them just like our own and each is in individual paddocks (I do not believe in mixing them) and we try our best to keep the whole environment completely stress free. We believe that if a mare is stressed out it wont hold regardless of whatever method you choose.

We are lucky to have our own mares to “teach” our young fledglings how to cover a mare, but we are also fortunate to have well-mannered stallions that we hope we teach well. In fact I have had several owners come and visit their mares this year who have seen our young lad cover in-hand and all be impressed with how gentle and mild-mannered he is at his job.

We are indeed ourselves looking to go more down the AI route with our own lad in the hope of getting frozen semen off him this year and using fresh and chilled next year. This is mainly so that we can keep him going in competition and also from calls from mare owners wishing semen sent, not for any other reason.

However on saying that the least amount of success I have had this year with my own mares has been down the AI route compared with my own mares at home being served “in-hand”.

I guess what I am saying at the end of the day is that not all Studs are like the one you described (but I can understand how you feel when you get a bad experience like that), and secondly AI certainly does not work for all mares.

 

[magic104]

You see you phoned the owner, the stud did not have the curtsey to do that & the 1st time it was noticed as we unloaded her. It was not noticed before as they seemed very keen to get her on the box. It took at least 3 buckets of hot water & plenty of hosing to wash the blood out of her tail. The gash was that old it had skinned over. The fact is I am well aware of the risks, but a phone call to inform me of this incident was all that was needed. They could not even be bothered to clean her up properly. I also know AI does not work for all mares & last year was the 1st time I had resorted to it. But AI did work out the cheaper option & it meant I could keep an eye on my mare. Accidents happen, fact of life, but to say nothing & to try & sweep it under the carpet is not good business sense. Plenty of mares visit this stud & I know most of them are going to be very happy, but the fact is there are also plenty of rumours re horse skills & how they deal with them. Again I had no choice as the stallion I wanted to use that year went there to cover his mares. As I said before I have never had a problem before, but it did not stop me worrying about someone else being in charge of my horse. The fact that my vets are 10mins drive away means I can go the AI route & stay closer to the proceedings. Oh & by the way where they are based the stallion there runs with his mares & foals.

 

[Anastasia]

As you say Magic, there is no excuse for not informing owners of an injury or anything of that sort, it is just common curtesy to do this.

Whenever a mare is dropped off with us I inform the owners that if I think the horse requires any veterinary treatment (i.e. something we cannot deal with ourselves and not of a gynae nature, for instance a cut or something) then I will phone the vet first, followed by the owner. In my view the horse welfare has always to come first and every owner has appreciated that.

We all love our horses and worry about them, no matter who is looking after them. I hated my own mares and foals going away from home this year, so I can appreciate how mare owners feel.

The same goes for in-hand covering. If the mare is unhappy then I wont put the stallion, mare or myself in a position to get injured......its just not worth it. We have once had a mare into the stud whereby it was unsuitable to cover in-hand. I then sent her to the stud we stored our frozen semen with and she was inseminated that way instead (albeit it took 4 months to get in foal due to her nature), but she was just far too dangerous (with back feet) to cover in-hand.

I value my life, stallion's welfare and reputation for doing a good job too much.......

We have a local highland stud to us whose stock do very well in showing etc. He runs all his stallions with mares that have foals, but these are in controlled small groups, i.e. one stallion to maximum of 2-3 mares with foals (he has several stallions) and in large fields, so there is plenty of space..............it certainly seems to work for natives. Saying that my lad is worth too much to get injured, so would never think of this option at all.

 

[Gingernags]

(QR not aimed at Anastasia)

The first foal I bred, I worked at the stud farm, and the mare (a maiden) was covered in hand and things went fine, this was a 14.2 mare to a 16h stallion. I had her caslicked afterwards at vet recommendation but she took first time, was scanned once at 35 days and that was that!

Second foal, my sisters TB ran with a Welsh Sec D - large field, 3 mares (2 with foals) and she played hard to get for the 1st month, kept running off at the last minute, the tease, but no problems and he got his way the second month she was there. Again scanned once at 35 days and then came home.

Asti at 15hh with a stallion at 16hh I thought would be fine. She was apparently a monster to tease and would charge at him over the door, whip round, double barrell the door and then drag stud owner away as fast as she could! Apparently the change to when she was in season after the injection was unbelieveable - she was errrr, definately up for it!

Nothing went wrong that could be noticed, he wasn't rough, this hasn't happened to them before but this is a very small stud, very limited number of mares this year - before that they only used their own mares (he's 6 and competing so not doing many) and other than one of her mares that nicked a vein - not seen it before.

As far as I'm concerned the stud did nothing wrong, I've known the owner for years. She'll not remember it but Asti beat one of her youngsters in an in hand class 12 years ago and she liked her then!

Its just one of those things the bleeding, tiny tears according to the vet, and if she's not taken this time she will still be covered in hand again. Like I said no AI technicians round here and I'm happier with her at a place I trust, close to home, and with as near as dammit to a natural covering.

I just treat it as one of those things and if my preference is for a more natural covering for a maiden mare of that age, well thats my choice and if I'm happy with it, thats the end of the story for me! I just think that having "done the deed" she'll have more of an understanding whats happening to her than being AI'd.

But thats as I say, my choice and thoughts on it.

 

[Fahrenheit]

QR not aimed at GM I am carrying on from where I left off earlier!

All stats aside, why would anyone want a natural covering with AI as advanced as it is, on safety reasons alone!

How many stallions have been lost because they have been injured covering in hand?? There was one in h&h a few weeks ago, there was U'Grand Jete, I am always sadden to read about another stallion being lost due to being kicked whilst covering! Caletto got kicked in the nads as a youngster and was deemed infertile after several test and he was lost to the breeding world for several years until it was discovered his fertility had come back.

Then spin in around, mares can get injured being covered, it doesn't matter how careful and experienced the stud, it happens, speak to Tulis at Twemlows he'll tell you he got involved in AI originally because he saw a stallion tear a mare internally and he said he'd never cover naturally again! Stallions can also do a sudden 180 and kick the mare as well. AI is far less stressful for the mare as well.

The handlers are in far more danger with in hand covering!

If you got a decent AI Tech or Repro Vet and AI is available why would you want to risk injury to stallion, mare or person when AI eliminates practically all these risks!

 

[Damien]

why oh why indeed? Earlier this year we received a visit from two very experienced Irish breeders, they stand 14 stallions at stud on average each year and have stood perhaps three of the most famous Irish stallions in Irish Breeding and breed 800 visiting mares every year, I wonder what could possibly be the attraction.

and what about the TB industry how on earth have they managed all these years? With that amount of coverings worldwide you would think that if it is as high risk there would be articles weekly about the loss of many great stallions?

Many of the National State Studs still stand stallions for natural service so surely it can't be that bad can it?

Lets face it freak accidents happen every day of the year and as mentioned there are many stallions that have had their testicles ruptured when being collected from the dummy mare, and freak accidents have also been known to happen when a mare has been inseminated artifically too, many a horror story can be told.

Horses are a high risk business fullstop and even when we try to minimise those risks something out of the ordinary can happen - every day has its scary moment!

Everyone has some very valid points and I long for the day that AI packages are offered nationally at the affordable rates that are offered on the continent. When I hear the amounts amounts being charged to clients by their vets its really quite scary. One client last year was charged £1200 for two cycles and was furious when charged £29.90 + vat for a saline lavage - x 10 not including the actual treatment - she managed the stock and accounts at a local hospital so was NOT impressed! LOL