not infoal??? mare at 361 days???

[luckilotti]

confused me again!

Just thought i would do a quick update on my mare.

She would be/is 361 days today.

She STILL has bags and milk. My parents pool guy got them to change over their chemicals etc so they no longer have test stripes, but a mini chemisty set, so i would have to get too much milk from her to test, i need to get myself to an aquatic shop as the ones i bought off the internet nearly 4 weeks ago still havent arrived.

She is also still being really quiet, the only time i've seen her with a spring in her step was when she couldnt see her best mate with foal at foot.

I've also heard today that the vet that scanned her last year, and also check her the other week missed twins in a mare last year despite scanning her 3 times during the pregnancy...

i really dont know what to do with her - throw her back out full time, hoping that if she is away from mare and foal she will dry up etc if shes having a phantom etc. leave her in, keep her just next to the mare and foal (foal has been trying to get over the fence to her so i am not keen on this option anymore), should i actually turn her out with her best mare and her foal?

anyway..... my confusion continues!

here she is with the other broodmare at the end of April.

Going to try and get a zoomed in one of this one.

And finally - when shes not infoal.

Quick history – scanned infoal last year. Due 7th May… no foal… showed ‘weird symptoms’ other weekend, vet said 1st stages labour… no foal…. Another vet comes out in the week, says wait a month… same vet on yard following day so does an internal…. Not sure if he’ll be able to reach all of the way in – but decides she isn’t infoal anymore…. A week later…. Still has milk, is slower than when not infoal, still has belly etc.
Weird symptoms – restlessness, tail lifting, squatting and straining, continuous winking…. But not interested in 2 year old colt... plus not your typical ‘inseason’ winking.

 

[flaxen]

You have my sympathy for your dilemma.
It is certainly hard to tell from the pics whether she is in foal or not. She has a big round tummy and is well covered on top and seems to have some fat around the top of her tail and an "apple" shaped bottom, so she does seem a bit fat to me.
The chestnut broodmare is much slimmer with muscle wastage either side if her pelvis heading towards her tail and you can see her ribs, and she abdomen hangs lower( but she could be nearer due date). If she was mine I would take her to a specialist equine stud vet for a second opinion and see what they say, if a foal is there then the vet should feel it on rectal.

I hope I havn't offended you.

 

[Jamana]

IMO she doesn't have a 'bag'. Yes she has a little waxy substance, but no milk. Could she just be fat???

As for a vet missing twins on 3 scans last year, although that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them it is a rather different thing to just putting a hand in and feeeling a foal. I don't understand the bit about not being able to get in far enough? Never heard that excuse from a vet before!.

IMHO the mare doesn't appear in foal and certainly not immanently going to foal. As for not being properly in season it may be worth scanning to see if she has retained fluid in the uterus from last season, this can cause similar symptoms.

Sorry if that is not what you want to hear and it is only my opinion based on some photos. Get a proper equine vet that does stud work and who you trust to take a good look at her.

 

[luckilotti]

Hi,

the chestnut mare was a rescue mare, bought already in foal and we have never been able to get weight on her at all. She did also foal 2 weeks after that photo was taken

the darker mare, her hindquarter shape has changed, and now has a 'dint' in the top. She has always been a 'well built' mare and the stud i bought her from, they did have a vet miss a foal when doing a rectal examination 2-3 months before foaling.

Amazingly, the vet hasnt called her far... which if it is just a phantom pregnancy she needs a serious diet!
She hasnt had much over winter at all. Lived out, unrugged most of the time as she decided she didnt want a rug on.... ab lib haylage (but she wasnt one of the main mares in the field to get first dibs etc)... then a smaller hard feed much later on.

When they 1st came in from wintering out, to tie them up next to each other, the darker mare was huge... whereas the ginger one... didnt look in foal at all, her surcingles didnt have to be made longer once over the winter.

I know time will tell, every single person on my yard thinks the vet is wrong, I've been looking into what other vets will come out to my area but i am really limited sadly with it

 

[luckilotti]

IMO she doesn't have a 'bag'. Yes she has a little waxy substance, but no milk. Could she just be fat???

She hasnt had any wax at all - the substance you can see is milk dripping. Her belly doesnt seem to be a 'fatness' type of fat if that makes sense. See other reply re what shes been eating over winter etc.

As for a vet missing twins on 3 scans last year, although that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them it is a rather different thing to just putting a hand in and feeeling a foal. I don't understand the bit about not being able to get in far enough? Never heard that excuse from a vet before!.

he wasnt sure if he was able to reach far enough in....... according to the stud i bought her from, another vet did miss a foal on a rectal exam, although was was a couple of months before she foaled.

Sorry if that is not what you want to hear and it is only my opinion based on some photos. Get a proper equine vet that does stud work and who you trust to take a good look at her.

as with other reply, we are limited to what vets cover out area, i've recently been looking at who else could come out, i am really limited, i could box her and take her for a trip up the motorway but she is a nightmare to box at the best of times, let alone when shes attached to the other mare as much as she is.

 

[Jamana]

Do you have a definite last covering date? Or was the due date based on size on scanning?

Although it seems a long time waiting she is only 3 weeks over, so could be nearly a month away yet.

Another scenario (though I don't want to unduly alarm you ) is that the foal has died and therefore is not producing the required level of hormone to go into full labour. If the foal has mummified inside her it would not necessarily make her ill, although if it starts to break down she will become ill quickly.

How about getting the vet to check for a heartbeat externally? Not a conventional route I know but maybe worth a try if nothing else can be done? I suppose that if the mare is well and healthy in herself, and you don't want to re-cover her this season if she were empty, then just sit it out and see what happens. Do you know her foaling history? Is she normally a mare that goes way overdue?

 

[flaxen]

Im sorry, but if a vet cant feel a foal via a rectal examination at 320 days then they shouldnt be doing stud work!! The foal will be sat there and they should be able to feel it without looking, he will be able to touch it before his elbow is inside the mare.

As for not being able to reach- every vet I have worked with has rectaled adult horses up to their shoulders which is very usefull when searching for twisted colons in colics etc.

 

[Rosehip]

Im not in any way experienced with brood mares, but as a farmer, Im experienced with pregnant animals in general, and would say that your bay mare isnt in foal (based on the pics) or is a couple of months off at least. I have had barren mares (and ewes!) run a milky substance before, very much like your mare looks to be doing. Is it possible that she was in foal but isnt now, and the 'milk' is a result of over active hormones and the foal being next door?
As others have said, if you dont trust your vet, is it possible for another vet to take a look at her? Even if it does mean a battle to box and a trip to another area?
I hope you get sorted and your questions answered!
x

 

[luckilotti]

Do you have a definite last covering date? Or was the due date based on size on scanning?

Although it seems a long time waiting she is only 3 weeks over, so could be nearly a month away yet.

Another scenario (though I don't want to unduly alarm you ) is that the foal has died and therefore is not producing the required level of hormone to go into full labour. If the foal has mummified inside her it would not necessarily make her ill, although if it starts to break down she will become ill quickly.

How about getting the vet to check for a heartbeat externally? Not a conventional route I know but maybe worth a try if nothing else can be done? I suppose that if the mare is well and healthy in herself, and you don't want to re-cover her this season if she were empty, then just sit it out and see what happens. Do you know her foaling history? Is she normally a mare that goes way overdue?

Hi,
the due date is from date of last covering, definatley correct dates as she was only at stud for covering, and she was scannned at home.

I was concerned that a dead foal could still be in there, but the vet said its very unlikely as she would have expelled it....... he said to get her back to stud in about 17 days if i want to try again. That obviously doesnt leave long for swabbing etc in the meantime. Plus if there is still a baby in there, i dont want to risk it. I had decided though that before returning to stud if she does (natural service) i will have her scanned prior to check exactly whats in there etc.

not thought of getting the vet to check for a heartbeat externally, not sure they would do that but i could ask... or worst care i could try and use my fetal heart monitor from when i was expecting.

Her foaling history is that she had 1 foal in europe somewhere, was purchased and imported to the UK by someone wanting to do affiliated SJ, she seemed to be putting on weight despite the workload so they had the vet down, this is when the vet did an internal, said she wasnt infoal, and within 3 months (they cant recall exact dates) they had a foal born. She apparently ran milk a week before foaling.
The stud then recovered her with their stallion, and she had another foal, again, ran milk before foaling.
The stud then sold up due to the owners emigrating and thats when i bought her.
We tried in 2008 but she didnt take at all, so in 2009 she went to another stallion and took 1st time. And now we are here.
Sadly the stud i bought her from obviously didnt take all of their paperwork with them so cant tell me if she was over etc, and obviously they dont know for the 1st one they had born there.

The stud who own the stallion, cant say that they have noticed that his foals tend to be late, but they have recently had one to his go to 12 months and 1 week.


IF she is to return to stud this year, i dont want to hang on too long (considering she didnt take in 2008), but at the same time, i dont want her returning too soon.
She is now 18, and hasnt had a foal since 2007.

 

[luckilotti]

just to add.........

i asked the vet if there were any test to see why she may have lost a foal is that is so. he said no - does anyone think she should be tested for anything???

And what are opinions on her returning to stud still having the milk? or would you wait for her to dry up - and how long do you think it would take.


the mare is very quiet compared to how she normally is - not in an ill way at all. she is still munching etc but previously (before covered and early pregnancy) if she was in, when you brought her out, she would more or less fly to the field, she plods now!

the mare is normally a complete slut, whore, tart etc when in season. As i mentioned earlier i think, she was showing weird behaviour a couple of weekends ago - that some could put down to being inseason, but she didnt even glance at the colt (2 year old), who did shout to her etc when she was grazing in hand nearby to him.

 

[magic104]

We all know mares are different even with pregancies they can show different signs. It does not look as if your mare has bagged up though, the photo below is of a mare about 3/4wks, she was expecting her 2nd foal, so not a maiden.

You can clearly see she has started to bag up, which does not appear to be the case with your mare. I also dont believe your vet cant tell at this stage whether she is or not. Fingers crossed for you, hope she is just wanting to cook for a bit longer!

 

[jaypeebee]

Going by your photos she doesnt look pregnant to me, or at least not 361 days. She hasnt bagged up at all and her bottom behind the croup hasnt dropped. What is her tail like? What are the muscles around her back end like? Teats can secrete at times and it doesnt always mean the mare is pregnant. Have you actually milked her properly? Are you sure it is milk and if so how much can you get out and what colour is it? Could she have aborted earlier in the year?

 

[luckilotti]

magic, i have to say none of my mares have ever bagged up as much as your photo. The one who foaled at the start of the month prob was 1/2 that size at 6am..... she foaled at 10am.

her tail has been very floppy at times, and the other weekend, her 'lady bits' were gapping open... this is when the vet said she was in the 1st stages of labour.
the 'milk' varies in colour, we have had a transparent with yellow tinge, through to white cloudy milk milk type stuff. I havent 'milked' her, just done the odd squeeze every few days as if she is having a phantom after having lost it, i dont want to encourage her to keep producing it.

No-one seems to know what i should find if i do the milk testing, so it seems rather pointless, i was going to but the stripes that i ordered nearly 4 weeks ago still havent arrived

Again this evening on the yard, i moved her to muck her out and i straight away had comments of disbelief that the vet says shes lost it. Its the way she moves also, like a pregnant uncomfortable mare.

 

[jaypeebee]

magic, i have to say none of my mares have ever bagged up as much as your photo.

All of my mares go the size that magic showed. Usually a few days before foaling however for weeks prior to foaling they will be about half that size.

her tail has been very floppy at times,

Can you lift it right up and over her back? If so, then yes she is still most likely pregnant but not presenting normally.

her 'lady bits' were gapping open... this is when the vet said she was in the 1st stages of labour.

Time to get a new vet I think.

the 'milk' varies in colour, we have had a transparent with yellow tinge, through to white cloudy milk milk type stuff.

Again that sounds promising that she may well still be pregnant.

No-one seems to know what i should find if i do the milk testing, so it seems rather pointless, i was going to but the stripes that i ordered nearly 4 weeks ago still havent arrived

Go to a swimming pool shop and buy some. They arent expensive. Normally what happens is you test the milk. 1cc milk to 6cc distilled water. Give it a shake. Put your test strip in and look at the hardness (calcium) and the ph. When a mare is not near she will read at over 8 on the ph and her calcium will be low. When she is close, a day or so away, the calcium is usually the first indication that something is happening. It will normally rise. When the mare is a day away, the calcium will have risen even more and the ph will drop to somewhere in the 7s. Once the calcium goes above 500 and the ph goes down to 6.2 then you know you are going to have a foal within the next 48 hours but usually within 24 hours. Milk testing is invaluable to those of us foaling a lot of mares down.

Again this evening on the yard, i moved her to muck her out and i straight away had comments of disbelief that the vet says shes lost it. Its the way she moves also, like a pregnant uncomfortable mare.

Time will tell and I hope she still is and you have a lovely healthy foal in no time.

 

[holiday]

Just to add to the above comments we had a mare got to 386 days this year and although had bagged up more than your mare she also looked like a fat mare to the point I had seen the foal moving but was still unconvinced on her being in foal and dropped her to see our stud vet 10 days before she foaled, he rectalled her but immediately nearly as his hand went in he said yep theres a foal there, I can feel it moving take her home!!

She came in looking in foal in March, due April 3rd, all April went to looking like a fat mare then a few days before she foaled suddenly looked again like an in foal mare!!!!!

 

[Fahrenheit]

TBH your mare doesn't look bagged up to me, she looks like she has a fat pocket infront of her bag in a couple of the photos. Also one of my mares dripped milk in Spring of the year I left her empty until she went back infoal.

I hope i'm wrong but my gut feeling from your photos is she isn't in foal just porky, sorry.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=172416&id=534271191&l=6c657d428c

Heres a link to pictures of my mares taken on the first few days of May with their due dates (most of them in June) for comparison, the few mares that don't look as big from the side I can assure you look like they have swallowed a double decker sideways from the back! The chestnut mare foaled 2 days ago.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

I think it is very difficult to tell whether a mare is in foal by looks alone. Mine had a round rump throughout, but much much bigger bag a whole month before foaling. Her tail never really went limp, just ever so slightly less resistance to lifting - She has always had a very muscly bottom and retained that throughout pregnancy.

I keep looking at your pics and changing my mind about her condition. What concerns me is that the vet was unable to feel a foal - even if he wasn't able to go in very far for whatever reason, even if - cross fingers that isn't the case - the foal is dead in there, I can't believe that at that stage he couldn't feel anything - it should be plainly obvious through rectal exam.

If I were you, I'd get the vet out again - or beg (and offer to pay handsomely for his time!) a specialised stud vet from further away to come to you, if she is really that hard to box.

Good luck x

 

[Touchwood]

That doesn't look like a bag to me either. Magic104's photo is an accurate representation of the vast majority of bags we see in the mares here.

As I said on the other forum - there is one answer to this, you need to get a PROPER stud vet to look at her. If that means sending her to a decent stud with a view to getting her back in foal, then so be it. No amount of looking at photos, and umming and ahing over her is going to give you the definitive answer that you want and need - this has to be confirmed by someone who is a professional, and actually knows their job - which is very simple, at this stage she will either have a foal the second they put their hand in, or they will be able to scan her, see the whole uterus and follicles showing her cycling normally.

 

[Holly831]

I am torn! On some pics she does look foal shape but her bag is non existent...

Photos of my mare at 327 days and I would say she has about another week or two to go....

 

[Maesfen]

Have to agree with Touchwood I'm afraid.

 

[illy89]

I am awaiting the arrival of my first foal so cannot offer any experience in opinion, but my mare is at 362 days now, here is a pic taken last weekend for comparison (it is her first foal). Her bag is bigger than your mares but not as big as magic104, so maybe I still have a while to wait!

Good luck and I hope everything works out for you!

 

[luckilotti]

Sadly, i havent been able to get hold of a 'stud vet' who is prepared to travel to come and see her. The vets i have used, both practices are on the BEVA List of Practices for AI, and their vet who deals with the 'stud work' have been the ones dealing with her. They also do the vet work for one of the largest studs locally to me, who also has the BQM. So they should be confident in their work. But it seems like since a scandal the other year... they are off track a bit. The vets from further away only seem to have the same credentials as my current 2 practices.

jaypeebee - i dont want to really start taking milk from her to test as if she has lost the foal and is continuing with a phantom, i dont want to ecourage her to keep producing milk.
Also, there is no data it appears for what results i would get if it was a phantom. so it would only tell me if she was about to drop, but i would also be going off other signs with that, hence would rather let her dry up if it is the case that shes lost it.

The weekend the vet thought she was in the 1st stages, her tail was as floppy as anything, but not its not so much. She is a very wide mare at the best of times, its just how shes built, i tried to get a photo from above her but it didnt come out very clear.


I know some of you prob think i am harping on about her, but you have to understand, when you have every single person on your yard convinced the vet is wrong, and going on about it every time they see her out and about, it only serves to confuse me more! i would love the vet to be wrong, but i do know that his opinion should be what i go off... but then again, they can be wrong.

 

[luckilotti]

To add:

i should have added dates to all of the photos. They were taken between the 27th April and 18th May. I've had to transfer them between phones, then upload from my old mobile hence its taken me a while to post them.

(and i hate the fact you can only edit/add things to post within 5 minutes grrrrr...)

 

[Touchwood]

Luckilotti, I shall try not to repeat myself any more, as I do feel like I have said this many times. I don't care what list your vets are on - if a supposed stud vet cannot give you a definative yes or no as to whether your mare is in foal at 362 days, then they are barely a vet, let alone a stud vet.
And therein I will bow out of this conversation - there is one way and one way only you are going to find out whether this mare is in foal.

 

[luckilotti]

illy89

here is a photo of the other mare who was due at the end of May... she foaled at the start of May instead. But here is her bag a few hours before foaling (sorry for photo quality, she is a rescue mare and still 'funny' with her back end so its amazing i managed to get any photos)

You can clearly see her wax, my other mare, who foal the other year - no wax whatsoever the night before foaling! They really can all be different.

 

[luckilotti]

Luckilotti, I shall try not to repeat myself any more, as I do feel like I have said this many times. I don't care what list your vets are on - if a supposed stud vet cannot give you a definative yes or no as to whether your mare is in foal at 362 days, then they are barely a vet, let alone a stud vet.
And therein I will bow out of this conversation - there is one way and one way only you are going to find out whether this mare is in foal.

the vet did the rectal the other week, when she was 351 i think from memory (havent time to check def date he came/what mare was) but he should have been confident in what he was saying!

You were very lucky Touchwood in the fact you based where you have your yard depending on the vets nearby as you mentioned on another forum when i was asking about choice of stud vets.

I could send her to the large local stud... but it would be the same vet seeing to her. I could box her up and go for a trip down the motorway, but i would get there with a mare dripping with sweat and very stress. And once they had seen her, i would have another battle to load her - and after having just travelled there, she wouldnt load easy. I could take her friend with her so she would load 1st attempt, but i dont want to have to put mare and foal through a needless trip for them.

I dont mind waiting a bit to see what develops!
-
I would however like to hear other peoples experiences if their mare has lost their foal/had a phantom and had the belly, movement of a pregnant mare, milk/or 'fluid' from their teats, especially if they mare was scanned infoal and hence should have been infoal.

 

[RuthnMeg]

Haven't bred any foals personally, but have worked on a stud farm and seen a few foalings in my time!
A young maiden mare foaled VERY overdue, yet didn't have a bag or any milk prior to foaling, it happens. However, some maidens don't bag up, and yours having had a foal before is more likely TO bag up.
A small pony mare showed all the symptoms of being in foal, waited and waited and waited some more.... she was dripping milk, had a small bag and quite a tummy too - turns out it was a phantom pregnancy. Removed her from sight of the other 2 foals and her tummy slimmed down, milk stopped and she was 'normal' again. This happened the following year too when some orphan foals came in. We had to hide her from them and as it wasn't doing her any good!!

My gut instinct about your mare is 'the vet is right', and yes, this could be a phantom. I'd remove her from sight of the other foal if possible and see if things settle down. BUT, I would also go out of my way to know for sure if she is or isn't infoal. Surely a ''stud vet'' can come out, it is their job, the same as its YOUR job to know what you are dealing with. You have to be prepard to phone around places and be prepared to pay more than you had probably catered for to get your answer.
Aside from the lack of bag, she does have the appearence of being in foal. You have GOT to get this sorted!!!

 

[luckilotti]

Haven't bred any foals personally, but have worked on a stud farm and seen a few foalings in my time!
A young maiden mare foaled VERY overdue, yet didn't have a bag or any milk prior to foaling, it happens. However, some maidens don't bag up, and yours having had a foal before is more likely TO bag up.
A small pony mare showed all the symptoms of being in foal, waited and waited and waited some more.... she was dripping milk, had a small bag and quite a tummy too - turns out it was a phantom pregnancy. Removed her from sight of the other 2 foals and her tummy slimmed down, milk stopped and she was 'normal' again. This happened the following year too when some orphan foals came in. We had to hide her from them and as it wasn't doing her any good!!

My gut instinct about your mare is 'the vet is right', and yes, this could be a phantom. I'd remove her from sight of the other foal if possible and see if things settle down. BUT, I would also go out of my way to know for sure if she is or isn't infoal. Surely a ''stud vet'' can come out, it is their job, the same as its YOUR job to know what you are dealing with. You have to be prepard to phone around places and be prepared to pay more than you had probably catered for to get your answer.
Aside from the lack of bag, she does have the appearence of being in foal. You have GOT to get this sorted!!!

Can you recall how long it to the mare to 'return to normal' after she wasnt near the mares/foals by any chance?

shes been around mares/foals when empty before and never had a phantom whilst i've had her but the fact she was scanned in foal, i guess would definatley trigger one if she lost it.

I've rung around a load of vets, many that were suggested on here, some of which cover this county and the next, but the dont cover my side of the motorway. I have one in Manchester who is prepared to come out (over an hours trip) but he doesnt deal with much stud work (amazingly, he would have an extra 40minute trip compared to my normal vets and his call out is only £4 more expensive!)

the stud she went to - have told me i would be ok to turn her out with her best mate and foal... but this is something i havent done as i dont feel its of benefit to either of them, but shows how it's all conflicting advice.

i had a 'feeling' (not based upon anything specific) hence why i insisted the vet examine her the following day that he had just told me to wait until 7th June.

 

[illy89]

illy89

here is a photo of the other mare who was due at the end of May... she foaled at the start of May instead. But here is her bag a few hours before foaling (sorry for photo quality, she is a rescue mare and still 'funny' with her back end so its amazing i managed to get any photos)

You can clearly see her wax, my other mare, who foal the other year - no wax whatsoever the night before foaling! They really can all be different.

Thanks for posting that pic for me! As I am new to all this it is very interesting to see how different mares show different signs! My mare is away at stud (i am at uni!) so have been waiting patiently for the phone to ring! I guess it will come when its ready and next time I will have a better idea of what signs she shows!

I hope that everything works out for you!

 

[Jamana]

I really wouldn't turn her out with a mare and foal. If she is motherly enough to have a phantom then she may try and take the foal from it's mother. even if she didn't succeed she could cause a real upset or any of them could be badly injured.

Personally I would take her out of sight of the foal if for no other reason than to rule that out.

One of my clients had a pony mare that was scanned in foal and was due end april, I felt she wasn't in foal all winter but her owner was convinced. A week off her due date and she had a bag exactly like your mare, I said that she really must get the vet to check, despite the big belly and the 'waddle'. Sure enough, no foal. The vet that came out on that visit was a cattle vet and it was a 12hh pony, but he could tell instantly.

If the vet you have had not had his judgement questioned by other people, would you be more convinced of his answer? There really is very little chance of him mistaking an empty mare for a pregnant one at this stage.