Not trimming foal feet - an update

solo equestrian - the problem is you are making this assumption not knowing what has happened to this foal before you got it.
you are getting very cross when people say you cannot base this an interesting example of how it all turns out wonderfully when you still by your own post have a deviated leg.
you are getting very het up that people are not listening to you when people say actually hang on, this may not be the best approach - i.e when they disagree with you.
I too would be interested in seeing a couple of straight shots of the leg but that's up to you.
I see you say you had trouble getting someone out to see her - why did you not just box her up and book her in at the vet for an assessment?
Also-I think your knowledge is quite limited of the youngstock industry and seems to be a little assumptional - any youngstock that are 'stabled' are generally in large barns rather than a 12x12 box so not quite the same..
 
I haven't followed the original link in the first post.

My horses are generally shod, but my now 6yr old mare, only had one trim between she was born, and almost three years of age. I don't trim my horses hooves.

Not out of any desire to keep her in a 'natural state' or anything like that, just because she didn't need the trimming, and she didn't have the handling in place either. She was handled briefly as a foal of course but after that she was left out to be a youngster. She wasn't fed anything except grass and hay.

Sure her hooves were scraggy and chipped by times, but the growth from the top down was strong, down as far as the last half inch or so. She had excellent frogs, good heels, and good concavity and no sign of thrush. She was also rock crunching. Her hooves were possibly a little taller then you'd be accustomed to, but the shape was good.

She actually suffered quite badly with white line disease though which actually served to kept her hooves in check, if she developed a bit of flare the white line disease would underrun that part of the wall quicker and it would break off. Guess you can't get more 'natural' then that ;)

Thats pretty much her natural hoof, you can see the seedy toe on the inside where her hoof was a little more flared. I kept an eye on it, but it never progressed more then that, it came and went according to the ground and weather conditions.
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And after trim...
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She was trimmed again before she came into work, for no other reason then to tidy up the edges to prevent chipping, I don't remember her having WLD at that stage, but it wasn't long before work on hard surfaces started to wear her hooves unevenly, wearing her heels down, or wearing the inside quarter more the the outside, and making her run toe long, and she was shod infront when her workload required it.

She's always been shod in front since, she has had one or two sets behind but she's more often then not, bare... just because she doesn't need them. There is no distinction between her hoof quality/shape between front and back.
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I don't 'get' the minimal intervention, surely we are all just doing what is necessary and no more?
Most young horses, living in a field, with no workload, no matter the diet could be kept in check with one or two trims.

My horses hooves certainly don't look as healthy as yours, growth rings from rich grass etc but it hasn't effected her hooves as an adult. She just has good feet, unlike her mother, who is kept under the same conditions and has the worst hooves ever.
 
SusieT said:
solo equestrian - the problem is you are making this assumption not knowing what has happened to this foal before you got it.
you are getting very cross when people say you cannot base this an interesting example of how it all turns out wonderfully when you still by your own post have a deviated leg.
you are getting very het up that people are not listening to you when people say actually hang on, this may not be the best approach - i.e when they disagree with you.
I too would be interested in seeing a couple of straight shots of the leg but that's up to you.
I see you say you had trouble getting someone out to see her - why did you not just box her up and book her in at the vet for an assessment?
Also-I think your knowledge is quite limited of the youngstock industry and seems to be a little assumptional - any youngstock that are 'stabled' are generally in large barns rather than a 12x12 box so not quite the same..
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I'm not getting cross with people disagreeing with me - that's the basis of discussion. I'm getting cross when people say they are insulted etc or say that an expert should be consulted without saying what kind of expert and what they might do. I hate the term 'expert' when it is used in isolation - an expert to one person isn't to another. On these lines, I probably should have mentioned this but didn't think it relevant. The vet has seen her - she is vaccinated! - and when she saw the foot, she said 'keep and eye on that, it looks a little upright'. I have a lot of respect for my vet but I don't list her under 'hoof care experts'.
With regard to stabling, any indoor housing counts as stabling to me. Even the biggest barns I've seen horses in would only have room for a very determined horse to do a couple of strides of canter. This isn't the same as constant slow movement around a field, and certainly not the same as being able to have a flat out gallop every day.
The other thing I'm interested in, which isn't really connected with this discussion, is the assumption that boxing a young animal to the vet is easy. I posted on here a while ago about my baby getting excited when leading her away from the others, and hands were thrown up in horror at the amount of handling I was doing with her ('babies shouldn't be away from their friends' etc - she was away for approx 10mins). There seems to be a paradox - don't handle, but expect them to box up and behave in a strange place. Presumably it's not the same people saying these things, but I do find it odd.
 
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I can't do a reply that includes a quote of a quote, but in terms of the environmental conditions that have been discussed - mare doing well and foal growing quickly or unspecified poor welfare - is there not an argument that changing the environment is the key, not necessarily whatever treatment is implemented? I absolutely understand the malleability of foal legs and the fact that they will follow feet that have gone awry, but I also think that any sudden change to the feet is likely to result in an insult to the joints in the rest of the leg, and perhaps to the whole body. This might not show up right away but would presumably lead to a much higher chance of joint issues later in life. In contrast, a slow change approach should minimise this effect and then we get back to the possibility that slow change isn't so much influenced by what we do but by what the horse does.
I've already suggested that there must be some problems where the benefit of intervening swiftly and comprehensively outweighs any possible future damage, but that there must also be a fuzzy line about where that point is.
 
So other than a vet giving it a glance, you haven't had anyone else look at it? And from what I know about feet and joints, yes if you drastically change now then it probably would cause problems as her joint plates have fused. Had you done something originally you probably wouldn't have hurt her.
 
Maesfen said:
Don't farriers count as experts in their field?
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Farriers are experts ( and their standards very enormously ) at nailing shoes to horses feet some if they have done extensive stud work will be experts with foals but a vet who does stud work is the opinion I would value most then an owner of a good stud then the farrier .
 
Thanks again to Ester for posting the pictures. I'm partly glad that there are no comments!
I'm a bit disappointed that there hasn't been been any real discussion on this topic.
I've read two posts recently on the Rockley blog that comment on some similar things - I've no idea if Nic Barker would agree with my approach to my foal but I have a lot of respect for her writing:
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/belief-and-doubt-and-all-about-learning.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/3-reasons-to-trim-your-horse-are-you.html
 
I don't think that Nic has had much experience of trimming foals and I doubt if she would comment. I suspect she would feel, as I do, that there is an enormous difference between leaving a foot to go a strange shape on legs where the growth plates are sealed and those where they are not.

Anyone reading the Rockley blog about allowing horses to grow the feet that they want does need to bear in mind that every horse there is an adult whose bones cannot be modified.
 
From one of the Rockley links in post 71.

Even horses in no work can self-trim. Our broodmare and her foal were completely self-trimming despite never going out on the roads and having no access to our tracks, which we needed for the rehab horses. Instead they had turn out in a small concrete yard and the fields - that was all - but on a balanced diet* even this limited mileage and stimulus was enough for healthy hooves which never needed a trim and never chipped or flared.

* And this is VERY important.
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I'm not sure what you are saying Faracat? Nic has had one foal, who has good feet and straight limbs, and previously a young exmoor whose growth plates were sealed before he arrived.

Nobody is disputing that foals can self trim, and as far as I can tell, most do, just like Bryher.

What I am worried about is people with foals with odd feet and bent legs not being seen by people with experience of those problems. And I do not think Nic would be happy if people thought her blog advocates that :(
 
SE, I wish someone with experience would comment on your photos. Because if the photo is an accurate reflection of reality, big if, then she is disturbingly turned out from either the knee down or the shoulder down for a yearling, particularly in the off fore. I would like to know the opinion of someone who has done a lot of foal work as to whether that kind of twist can be corrected by trimming or not.
 
I agree that it is dangerous that inexperienced people might think that it's OK to just turn out and let a foal self trim.

One of mine was trimmed regularly from a foal and he has a slightly wonky leg. Both my farrier and Vet have said that it should have been corrected and indeed would have been easy to do so. He had freshly trimmed, wonky hooves when he came to me - maybe if he hadn't had wonkily trimmed hooves, the leg would be straight? Maybe if he's been self trimming he'd have been better off? I have no idea and I don't have 100's of foals to experiment on. The scary thing is how few people (horsey people) can see the wonkyness, even when it's pointed out to them.

I just quoted that bit because it seemed pertinent to the discussion as it mentioned a foal that was self trimming. No ulterior motive on my part or point to make.
 
Well I can see that it would be pretty darned annoying to have a horse delivered who had been trimmed uneven!!
 
This is a very interesting discussion the" proof of the pudding is in the eating" and as an observation the hoof of this particular yearling has improved without intervention but the limb deformity has not and now never can due to the fusion of all its leg growth plates.
To do a double blind trial would be the only proper way to prove this theory correct or not so you would need a group of foals probably more than 50 who all had the same deformity half of whom would be trimmed and treated the other half would be left to their own devices all would of course have to be hand reared from birth all would have to have the same nutrition and same environment only then would you eliminate/reduce the possibility of bias you would then have to have a biomechanical way of measuring the deformity and any improvement or deterioration in each group you would then have to have a group of 50 foals just being foals with their mothers and being raised normally as a control after a period of time assessment could then be made of each group to see what system was the most successful. Only then can a casual observation be proven or not as the case may be.
Personally I think it is a bit immoral and anti welfare to consider it but lots of double blind trials are done. In the mean time anecdotally it is clear that the foals with the best outcome are those who are treated from birth and and not those abandoned to chance
 
I did not comment on the pictures as I am pretty dumbfounded that that youngster has not been treated from the day it was born and any improvement now is too late and probably purely academic to the function of this animals leg
 
cptrayes said:
SE, I wish someone with experience would comment on your photos. Because if the photo is an accurate reflection of reality, big if, then she is disturbingly turned out from either the knee down or the shoulder down for a yearling, particularly in the off fore. I would like to know the opinion of someone who has done a lot of foal work as to whether that kind of twist can be corrected by trimming or not.
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Yes, I'd be interested in that too. However all the reading I did and the stud themselves suggested that the toe out conformation is desirable in a youngster and as they mature and broaden, the effect is to straighten the whole limb in terms of its flight pattern. Apparently if you start off with a very straight foal, it will end up toe-in and one that starts toe-in will go ridiculously so as it grows up. The twist I've referred to throughout the thread is the off-fore, which is slightly more toe-out than the near. It is really difficult to see where from though - at the moment it looks like it is coming from the pastern, but earlier in the year I thought it was from the knee. When I was trying to take the pictures (not very successfully, as you can see!), she often stood with that leg more turned out from the shoulder and I wonder if that is perhaps the position she prefers and possibly the root of the issue with her foot. It's extremely subjective, but I would say that the difference in the two legs is improving as the foot improves. I put in the last photo because it shows the leg looking straight at the knee i.e. at an angle, which is where all the foal conformation assessment information says you should look, not directly from the front because of the misleading nature of the toe-out conformation at that age.
 
I have to say that with the limited photos to go on, it looks like it is at least partly from the shoulder to me. Which would be good news, because the shoulders are not attached to the rest of the skeleton by joints, only soft tissue, and can change a lot. I will be watching her progress with interest as she matures.

One of my two four year olds is out from the knee, and always will be.
 
Yes, I've not been worried by the general 'toe-outiness' that she shows, just the upright foot and the difference between the two legs. I did have a friend look at her a few months ago - he has bred many foals and didn't see anything to worry about with mine. I had forgotten about that until everyone started throwing up their hands in horror - the original post was meant to be just an interesting piece of information!
 
windand rain said:
This is a very interesting discussion the" proof of the pudding is in the eating" and as an observation the hoof of this particular yearling has improved without intervention but the limb deformity has not and now never can due to the fusion of all its leg growth plates.
To do a double blind trial would be the only proper way to prove this theory correct or not so you would need a group of foals probably more than 50 who all had the same deformity half of whom would be trimmed and treated the other half would be left to their own devices all would of course have to be hand reared from birth all would have to have the same nutrition and same environment only then would you eliminate/reduce the possibility of bias you would then have to have a biomechanical way of measuring the deformity and any improvement or deterioration in each group you would then have to have a group of 50 foals just being foals with their mothers and being raised normally as a control after a period of time assessment could then be made of each group to see what system was the most successful. Only then can a casual observation be proven or not as the case may be.
Personally I think it is a bit immoral and anti welfare to consider it but lots of double blind trials are done. In the mean time anecdotally it is clear that the foals with the best outcome are those who are treated from birth and and not those abandoned to chance
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Yes, and of course this kind of trial would be well nigh impossible. I think the interesting part is your final sentence though - how is it clear that these foals have the best outcomes? In my situation, I can say unequivocally that it is possible for a foal's conformation to improve with no intervention. I can guess that the reason this has become possible is because of a change of environment (diet and movement). I can't say whether this would apply to any other foal. The converse would seem to me to also be true. In a foal that has had an intervention, all you could say would be that it is possible for a foal's conformation to improve. You would have no way of knowing whether the intervention had caused the improvement or not - the best that could be said is that in the short term, the intervention did not appear to cause any negative outcomes. I'm thinking here of cases like mine, where the conformation problem is mild - I've already said a bit about severe conformation problems that would be classed as welfare issues. The other thing the study described above would need to include would be monitoring of all the horses for their entire lifetime to see if there were any issues with regard to lameness (particularly in old age, where damage to joints is likely to show as arthritis).
 
windand rain said:
I did not comment on the pictures as I am pretty dumbfounded that that youngster has not been treated from the day it was born and any improvement now is too late and probably purely academic to the function of this animals leg
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This is what I'm interested in though - what could be done? Lots of people have talked about assessment by experts, but what would they have actually done? I understand the principle of trimming the heels and in severe cases using a toe extension to encourage upright hooves to increase their angle, but that is what my foal has achieved on her own. I can't imagine what could be done to 'correct' the slight twist (which I suspect may be connected to the hoof becoming upright, but I'll never know that). The lack of discussion leads me to believe that what people do is hand over responsibility to experts and then the outcome is in their hands. As far as I can see, most experts who would be consulted in this situation are people who have experienced issues before and have probably always dealt with them in the same way ie use some sort of intervention. They would therefore be no more expert than the next person about whether that intervention was actually successful or whether, as one of my early posts said, the animal was improving in spite of the intervention. Correlation is not equivalent to causation - if someone does x because of condition y and condition y improves, that is not evidence that x was useful. That's the discussion I would be interested in having!!
 
soloequestrian said:
This is what I'm interested in though - what could be done? Lots of people have talked about assessment by experts, but what would they have actually done? I understand the principle of trimming the heels and in severe cases using a toe extension to encourage upright hooves to increase their angle, but that is what my foal has achieved on her own. I can't imagine what could be done to 'correct' the slight twist (which I suspect may be connected to the hoof becoming upright, but I'll never know that). The lack of discussion leads me to believe that what people do is hand over responsibility to experts and then the outcome is in their hands. As far as I can see, most experts who would be consulted in this situation are people who have experienced issues before and have probably always dealt with them in the same way ie use some sort of intervention. They would therefore be no more expert than the next person about whether that intervention was actually successful or whether, as one of my early posts said, the animal was improving in spite of the intervention. Correlation is not equivalent to causation - if someone does x because of condition y and condition y improves, that is not evidence that x was useful. That's the discussion I would be interested in having!!
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I strongly disagree with every word of that. You are eloquent but there are no facts to back up what you are saying. It's almost along the lines if crystal healers... I bow out now and hope for your foal's sake that it doesn't break down - though I suspect this may be the case as now it is too late to correct anything
 
SE I am not an expert, but I know that what could have been done is what my friend who trims her own foals has done with two similar youngsters. She tried the foot to load the side of the leg which was not growing as fast, and which was causing the leg to twist. The additional loss appeared to cause the growth plates to even up and the foals came as straight as you would want at that age.

No, I don't know if it would have happened without the trimming and neither does she. But if I had a foal like yours then I would have wanted it seen by someone with plenty of experience in trimming foals before I decided that doing nothing was the right approach.
 
cptrayes said:
SE I am not an expert, but I know that what could have been done is what my friend who trims her own foals has done with two similar youngsters. She tried the foot to load the side of the leg which was not growing as fast, and which was causing the leg to twist. The additional loss appeared to cause the growth plates to even up and the foals came as straight as you would want at that age.

No, I don't know if it would have happened without the trimming and neither does she. But if I had a foal like yours then I would have wanted it seen by someone with plenty of experience in trimming foals before I decided that doing nothing was the right approach.
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Thanks, that's interesting. Do you know if her foal's feet had become upright as well as having the twist? What age were they when she carried out the specific trimming? Do you know how often she had to trim?

Just to clarify, I do appreciate everyone's view that I am wrong in my course of action but I remain happy with it. I'm interested in the general discussion, not really the stuff about my foal particularly.
 
I know you are happy with your course of action and what could have been done from day one was careful trimming daily assessment and monitored exercise some deviations are caused by too much exercise some by too little having had a foal with a similar problem I had a farrier and vet on site every 4 days to start with from 4 days old she ended up straight/ sightly toe out and no club foot by 12 weeks of age by three she was completly straight having had intensive trimming and vet care all her life. I have seen windswept youngsters, bow legged youngsters, ballerina youngsters and crumpled youngsters all of which were given the best of farrier and vet care and ended up straight I have seen youngster at various ages come of the hills and forests with appalling deviations non of which have been treated so perhaps as I say anecdotally every deviated foal that has been treated has come straight and many more not treated including the one in those photos one have not. I should add that the deviations need to be seen and discussed with a vet from a very early age for the effectiveness to be best as the joints set at different ages and by 8 to 9 months old nothing more can be achieved without altering the muscle development and balance of the youngster which may or may not induce pain
 
All I know is I have a 15-year-old WB with a club foot . . . every farrier who has treated him has said that it's likely that it's due to poor (or no) attention to his feet when he was a baby and it's caused no end of unnecessary problems in his feet (and the rest of his body) in his adult life.

P
 
soloequestrian said:
Thanks, that's interesting. Do you know if her foal's feet had become upright as well as having the twist? What age were they when she carried out the specific trimming? Do you know how often she had to trim?

Just to clarify, I do appreciate everyone's view that I am wrong in my course of action but I remain happy with it. I'm interested in the general discussion, not really the stuff about my foal particularly.
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They were a few weeks old when she started the trimming.

They were never allowed to go clubbed, SE. If they had started to go upright she would have lowered the heels to ensure that the tendons didn't contract.


'Loss' in my word text should be load, of course :)
 
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