Not worthy....

I've always been of the opinion that it takes more skill from a rider and more depth of partnership to go out 'into the wild' where you may come across livestock, shoots, quad bikes, loose dogs, cars, motorbikes and jump-scare pheasants, than in the safety of an enclosed arena. The horse needs to be sure-footed over a variety of terrain and able to emotionally regulate if any of the above should cross their path.

In short, the snobbery towards the 'happy hacker' is nonsensical.
 
SEL said:
I sense snobbery even on this thread. Some of the bravest, most competent riders I know are the hunting crowd. Mainly aren't interested in competing but utterly capable of training a 3yo to hack - over everything!

**wanders off to happy hack a cob having just done low level RC stuff with the other one who is far, far hotter than the warmbloods of my 30s** 🙄
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Agreed.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I've always been of the opinion that it takes more skill from a rider and more depth of partnership to go out 'into the wild' where you may come across livestock, shoots, quad bikes, loose dogs, cars, motorbikes and jump-scare pheasants, than in the safety of an enclosed arena. The horse needs to be sure-footed over a variety of terrain and able to emotionally regulate if any of the above should cross their path.

In short, the snobbery towards the 'happy hacker' is nonsensical.
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It is largely a different skill set though, in the same way that a companion dog, a guide dog and a border collie have different temperaments and abilities. No way would I re-home a pup from one of our working dogs with a 'happy hacker' - equivalent home, however good those owners were, no matter what they felt able to offer. Nor would I expect the same collie pup to make an easy guide dog or my companion dog to successfully work sheep. A hack is a very well trained animal undoubtedly (and all of ours hack primarily) but we should all recognize the particular abilities and sensitivities of any animal when we think of a home for it. I think it is a little arrogant to think otherwise tbh and I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular!

For the record I've produced competition horses and in order to develop their skill, confidence and physical safety at the competition job, using their legs up hacking has been lower on the list of priorities. Some have gone on to hack very happily, others not so much. But I felt it my responsibility, primarily, to prepare them best for the intended competing. With hunters, hacking is an absolutely vital skill and experience but other things are required too, which I may not think so important for a hack. For a novice hack or child's pony, again priorities need to be identified and horses whose temperaments and talents fit that bill, identified. There is inverse snobbery about having/owning/producing a happy hack too...
 
FWIW I fully agree that a hacker requires a much wider skillset than a competition horse, mine hack/hunt and are expected to cope with all manner of situations that aren't horse-oriented, unlike at a competition venue where everything is set up with horses in mind.
I think 3 is quite young to be making blanket assumptions about how the horse will be over her whole life, but if she has shown a marked distaste for hacking, is it kind or fair to sell her into a home that primarily wants to do that? People often sell horses as happy hackers and, while many are sold as such because they're a bit broken, some are just bored/sour in the school. I didn't ask the old boy to do a lot of schooling as, while he will do it, he's visibly unhappy about it. He's not going anywhere, but if I was selling a similar horse I wouldn't choose a home that wanted to do a lot of schooling.
I'm not suggesting that this horse is dangerous in any way, but I will say in more general terms, a sales ad that says 'competition home only' looks much better than 'please don't hack this horse, I don't want blood on my hands'!
 
SEL said:
I sense snobbery even on this thread. Some of the bravest, most competent riders I know are the hunting crowd. Mainly aren't interested in competing but utterly capable of training a 3yo to hack - over everything!
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Although I saw some pretty poor treatment of horses occasionally out hunting, I really was in awe of some of the riders. They were inspirational.

I came last in most of the RC dressage contests I did, which did put me off competing. The day that I saw a couple of teenagers pointing to my score sheet and giggling was the day I decided to give up dressage. (However, I was once the overall winner of the 'Wrinklies' Equitation class' at one of the local RCs... 😄 )
One thing I loved about hunting was that I could set little goals for myself and then feel good if I'd given it a go. No rosettes but a generally good feeling - sometimes that feeling would keep me going all week.

We moved up to the Highlands and gave up everything apart from hacking. I was OK with that.
Yesterday we were hacking in lovely weather and while strolling along we saw an otter, a white-tailed eagle and several buzzards...to me, it doesn't get a lot better than that.
I totally 'get' that some people love competing and that's fine. But I don't think my horse minds one bit that all we do these days is hack around.

I remember going to a farm ride once at an EC that had lots of dressage clinics. We were chatting to a very nice lady in the car park with a beautiful flashy warmblood (who was a bit spicy to say the least!) She said that we were brave to be going on the farm ride - 'We only do arena work, it's dangerous out there.'
 
Some happy hackers just walk around the forest - our local livery and the expensive one near where we to used to be is full of them. Often looking mildly terrified on very ‘blood’ type horses that are immaculately groomed and extremely fancy. We avoid if possible because passing them is tricky even at walk without frightening horse or rider. The very sight of a pony sets some of them off!

I think the horse in the ad is probably sharp, might prefer a rigid routine competition yard style and maybe doesn’t like hacking (or won’t hack alone).
 
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Miss_Millie said:
I've always been of the opinion that it takes more skill from a rider and more depth of partnership to go out 'into the wild' where you may come across livestock, shoots, quad bikes, loose dogs, cars, motorbikes and jump-scaree a pheasants, than in the safety of an enclosed arena. The horse needs to be sure-footed over a variety of terrain and able to emotionally regulate if any of the above should cross their path.

In short, the snobbery towards the 'happy hacker' is nonsensical.
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It takes a huge amount of skill too, to develop a horse's skill and confidence to showjump, event, dressage or play polo/horseball etc. Those things require a partnership of trust too. I know we have lately seen some awful things from professionals and I certainly question whether we should compete horses but I won't deny the skill, commitment and trust required to do those things.
 
How you can tell any of that from a 3 year old, I will never know, just because a horse may look like it can event, showjump or whatever? At 3 years old you will never know till a little further down the line.
I bought a 3.5 year old who is now 5 and I am very very proud of him, I am proud of myself too for wasting him and giving him the absolute life of luxury, never wanting for another thing, spoiled rotten and gets tucked up into bed every single night because he hates the wind, rain and flies! I wouldn’t change it for the world. And we are very very happy at pottering about round the countryside for the rest of our lives. Stuff anyone who thinks otherwise.
 
Barton Bounty said:
How you can tell any of that from a 3 year old, I will never know, just because a horse may look like it can event, showjump or whatever? At 3 years old you will never know till a little further down the line.
I bought a 3.5 year old who is now 5 and I am very very proud of him, I am proud of myself too for wasting him and giving him the absolute life of luxury, never wanting for another thing, spoiled rotten and gets tucked up into bed every single night because he hates the wind, rain and flies! I wouldn’t change it for the world. And we are very very happy at pottering about round the countryside for the rest of our lives. Stuff anyone who thinks otherwise.
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Indeed. I threatened to sell my horse when she was a 3-yr old. Multiple times. She was such a ditzy mare, and I couldn't see myself enjoying that. But she grew out of it. I'm glad I never followed through with those threats!
 
Caol Ila said:
Indeed. I threatened to sell my horse when she was a 3-yr old. Multiple times. She was such a ditzy mare, and I couldn't see myself enjoying that. But she grew out of it. I'm glad I never followed through with those threats!
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Exactly! They are babies at that age and they need to be taught and to learn 😃
 
Barton Bounty said:
Exactly! They are babies at that age and they need to be taught and to learn 😃
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Dunno, 'cause it's not my world (it's more yours, 'cause you've had a few ex-racers), but maybe people in the racing industry have different expectations of racehorses because they are backed and raced so young? I mean, a three-year old flat racer is pretty much at the peak of its career.
 
I see no snobbery at all on here just different interpretations of what the advertiser was trying to get across but perhaps with the wrong phrase. don’t think anyone under estimates the development of a horse to hack. Interestingly I feel mine are good because they’ve seen a lot as racehorse and competition horses which helps them hacking and a lot of what they see hacking helps them at competitions. At competitions I’ve handed them over to a stranger who expects them to walk trot canter and extend in a mannerly fashion with parachutists landing, motorbike displays, pyrotechnics in the next arena, three packs of hounds passing the ring and coming into it, shire horses, military horses coming down the road next to the ring, etc whilst in hacking mode traffic, dog walkers, sheep in pens on the track, open spaces, narrow gateways, wildlife, etc.

And my two best horse friends are non competing riders and no snobbery from either side.
 
Don’t know whether that is relevant to the horse in the OP but you really can tell that some horses are born with a sharp temperament at much younger than at age 3.

Many horses will make good hacking horses, but a fair few will never make the grade as a hacker. You do need the right raw material to start with.
 
Well she's sold really quickly while horses aimed at the low level competition and hacking homes are still up for sale.

As for the age, amateurs and professionals buy horses of this age and younger to produce in different disciplines. They make a judgement on how young horses will developm. Doesn't always pay off but that's the risk with youngsters.
 
Exasperated said:
Not seen the ad, don’t know the vendor, but if a seller specifically states not suitable for ‘happy hacking’ (as opposed to serious endurance, for example), just be relieved there should be one less unsuitable horse prancing giddily and possibly uncontrollably on today’s roads / bridleways.
I wouldn’t read that as a critique of such riders, rather vendor’s intention to successfully sell the horse they know, and limit any comeback.
If it’s never going to be ridden out (because unsuitable) then it probably is going to be school work and training towards some kind of competition - or possibly breeding? Certainly wouldn’t want any decent horse to face a future purely of going round and round in a riding manège, because the new owner was incapable or unwilling to do anything else - that would be awful, and far too many horses already exist like that.
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The horse in question is 3. It's skill set probably relatively unknown.
 
See to be honest I laugh at adverts like that. I would say Faran is 90% happy hacker and 10% RC pony and that suits me to a T 😁

I could compete him if I wanted to but I don’t. He has some great potential but I’m happy just having fun.

Horses can be bred for whatever the breeder thinks but once they leave that breeder then it’s up to the owner to decide. You can have this sire or that damline but at the end of the day breeding to me doesn’t determine a horses use. The owners do.
 
Caol Ila said:
Dunno, 'cause it's not my world (it's more yours, 'cause you've had a few ex-racers), but maybe people in the racing industry have different expectations of racehorses because they are backed and raced so young? I mean, a three-year old flat racer is pretty much at the peak of its career.
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A 3 yo racer is still very much a baby, regardless of whether its had someone on it for a year. I don’t agree with it at all.
The expectations are all wrong if you ask me and that is why so many are broken and projects! Because clueless people buy them and waste them or people hound them round a ring constantly without a second thought.
 
Could well be some snobbery behind the advert, but could also just be a bit of a language failure. We, the equestrian community in general, are not very good at describing different types of horse - there aren't many good/positive ways of saying "horse shows aptitude and attitude for competition but not for hacking". Because the general horsey public don't accept that well, they tend to assume that a horse not suited to hacking is an all around fruitloop.

The 'snobbery' towards hacking can be just straight up snobbery, but in my experience, it is more often a defensive position. I've met lots of rider who don't actually like hacking that much, and lots of horses who either by innate temperament or by inadvertent training from their nervous hacking owners, seem to be sharp balls of worry to hack.

I get the point that this advert is badly worded, but if the sellers don't think this particular horse would suit the job of a hack then that's fair enough. My horses are hacking horses and I'm not offended by the language particularly, though I do appreciate that it does read as a bit dismissive.
 
Meanwhile and no offence to the posters on that thread there is a thread about horses and fear out hacking and whether horses ever overcome certain fear. I once worked for an Olympic eventer and a horse there didn’t like pigs. The horses were hacked out regularly across the downs and I was on him once and one of the girls with me suddenly realised we were on the pig route. We squashed him between two others and talked loudly 🙈
 
Tiddlypom said:
Don’t know whether that is relevant to the horse in the OP but you really can tell that some horses are born with a sharp temperament at much younger than at age 3.

Many horses will make good hacking horses, but a fair few will never make the grade as a hacker. You do need the right raw material to start with.
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100%. On the flip side, when Hetty was 3 and had been sat on a couple of times I could tell you with complete certainty that dressage schooling in an arena would serve only to irritate her. That one is a hacker through and through.
 
Barton Bounty said:
A 3 yo racer is still very much a baby, regardless of whether its had someone on it for a year. I don’t agree with it at all.
The expectations are all wrong if you ask me and that is why so many are broken and projects! Because clueless people buy them and waste them or people hound them round a ring constantly without a second thought.
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If OP & I are thinking of the same ad - then I'm surprised you've not seen it (assuming you are on faceache?) 😜
 
Caol Ila said:
1. It's three. Who knows how it will be when it actually matures.

2. The language is very, very ambiguous. As are all horse ads. Do they mean it in the way that Red-1 and Exasperated implied, that they think the horse is too sharp to be a safe hacking horse? Or do they mean that they think the horse has a lot of talent as a dressage horse or eventer and they want to see that talent go to good use (from their point of view)? They think she is 'too good' for 'just hacking,' regardless of whether she'd be alright at it or not. That kind of snobbery is real.

And there are many competition riders who are also useless. I watched the working hunter class at Blair Horse Trials a few years ago 'cause a friend was competing, and I was shocked by the standard of many of those riders, over 90-100 fences.

I hack for miles every day. And look, my horses even have to do collection sometimes and deal with stuff like that. As well as dogs, cars, gates, people on paddleboards, drones, etc. etc.

https://gallifreyrises.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F787008008345501696
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You’d have to ask the vendors, and explain - if interested to pursue the horse - what type of ‘happy hacking’ you actually do, see whether that is perceived rather differently to an hypothetical happy hacker who really does only do a couple of miles a week, maximum, and that round the fields on their livery yard.
People like that do exist (rather sadly for their horses in my opinion), there are posters on that other thread stating they only ride a couple of months per year at most, don’t ride at all if their horse ‘denies permission’ by glancing longingly at its grass, have given up entirely on ‘ethical’ grounds - if you owned a lively youngster, and thought there was so much as a sniff of such a miserable, inappropriate future for an athletic juvenile, I guess you’d try to circumvent, too.
Once it’s sold, too late, and if already been in training alongside contemporaries against which to compare ‘suitability’, why should this vendor’s advice be seen as snobbery?, an over-sensitive interpretation, surely?
 
I still find the vendors comments odd (& yes, snobby)

Other OTTB trainers I've seen have said things like lively ride, would do well ROR, not great solo hacking, not a horse who does well just being ridden at weekends etc (in fact I've seen comments like those on lots of horse ads). All the types of things that weed out the weekend riders who probably shouldn't be near a 3yo of any description. I'm assuming that's what they mean by a "happy hacker" whereas I know many a non-competitive rider who do cracking jobs with youngsters.

I also know many who would self describe as a competitive home who also shouldn't be near a 3yo of any description.

(But I'm also snobby about competitive homes because in my head they are people who don't do much turn out, never hack, awful hands, over reliance on gadgets and vets to fix the mess they make 😁) We've all got the odd prejudice I guess
 
Caol Ila said:
1. It's three. Who knows how it will be when it actually matures.

2. The language is very, very ambiguous. As are all horse ads. Do they mean it in the way that Red-1 and Exasperated implied, that they think the horse is too sharp to be a safe hacking horse? Or do they mean that they think the horse has a lot of talent as a dressage horse or eventer and they want to see that talent go to good use (from their point of view)? They think she is 'too good' for 'just hacking,' regardless of whether she'd be alright at it or not. That kind of snobbery is real.

And there are many competition riders who are also useless. I watched the working hunter class at Blair Horse Trials a few years ago 'cause a friend was competing, and I was shocked by the standard of many of those riders, over 90-100 fences.

I hack for miles every day. And look, my horses even have to do collection sometimes and deal with stuff like that. As well as dogs, cars, gates, people on paddleboards, drones, etc. etc.

https://gallifreyrises.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F787008008345501696
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I didn't mean to imply that they would be too sharp to hack at all. My sharpest one was a lovely hack. Would hack alone or in company. Would go out in company and split up to school and not make a fuss. Was good in traffic.

You submitted a video to show your skills out hacking. Both horses look happy and confident. Both riders look happy and confident. My current two horses would both be very happy for you to hack them. You look to be kind and encouraging. Both of my current horses are happy hacker types. One is capable of a lot more, would lower level BS, BD and BE, but I have lost the drive and love of doing that so he hacks and does local unaffiliated stuff. They are self sufficient and happy to take general direction.

However, when I have had the competition types, I can think of three of them who would have buried you. They needed the rider to be with them at all times, mentally and physically. You gave your balance away on a few occasions, gave the reins away, took your legs off and on randomly and lost balance laterally. They would have been highly stressed at this, and would have reacted. They needed a different type of riding. They needed a rider to feel the slightest tension and be able to help them dissipate it.

Two of them, I trained to be more forgiving and more all rounder in their way of going. The third I did not manage to change her to be accepting of anyone other than a different type of rider.

I don't think I am being at all snobby as I sold my competition types and deliberately bought failsafe types. I am no longer a rider who would like a competition type. I have described horses as failsafe - as in they slow and wait when unsure. Some, however are the other type who, when unsure, take their own action, which will probably be energetic and possibly violent as a rider losing balance would scare them. If their fears are not answered at source they will take their own action.

I am not saying a competition type is better at all, nor that they can't be a hacker, but they will be an active hacker rather than a relaxing, stroll along hacker. They may only walk, but they will be walk with a rider who is in tune mentally and physically. Most could be trained to be less sensitive and more self sufficient, but you'd have to meet them where they were mentally on purchase.

Happy hacking is indeed a skill in itself. I spent years training Police Horses, extreme happy hacking. It was a highly skilled thing to produce a horse to act well under extreme conditions whilst using a radio, writing in books, using a hand held computer device, directing a violent crowd. I don't underestimate the skill in happy hacking, but that is a very different skill to riding a sensitive horse who is kept fit and fed for action, who is trained to react to a slight rein tension change or body tension change.

I don't doubt your skill as a rider, you and your horse look fabulous, but I think there are different types of riding for different types of horses. I applaud the seller for advertising this up front. I dare say that if a person came along with proven skills at being poised and with the horse, with active riding, many people advertising for competition homes would consider selling whatever the purpose.
 
Herewegoagain said:
I have seen this attitude a bit with children’s ponies. Someone was selling a pony that had been her daughter’s 1st and taken her off the lead rein but she said she only wanted a 2nd pony home as the pony deserved to be out winning rosettes.

I found it so strange that any person would think a horse cares about that stuff.

I’ve never had any interest in competing it seems so stressful to me and the people I know who do compete seem to get more stress and anxiety out of it than enjoyment. I know that’s a generalisation and some people do genuinely thrive off that sort of thing but I do think a lot do it because the feel obligated. One of the main reason I gave up riding as a 12 year old was because my mum wanted me to go to shows and do competitions but I hated the idea and she thought it was a waste to have a pony and not compete. I got sick of the nagging and just quit. I do wonder how many kids competing actually love it versus how many are just pleasing their parents.
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It's funny how things go, isn't it? That's all I wanted to do as a kid/teen, would have ridden anything but instead I had to go to shows and watch my father & stepmother do the competing and didn't get my "own" pony until I sorted out a loan all by myself. And then I had to scrounge lifts or hack for miles to get to a show. I did get taken to shows as a small child (pre school, LR gymkhana) but that stopped when my parents split up. Anyhow now there's a half sister, 28 years younger than me, doesn't seem that fussed, not that horse mad, will throw in the towel with anything that bucks or jumps her off or even awkward to mount yet she's had a string of ponies, not cheap ones either, competes not just unaff but aff as well, all the gear and a lorry which even has her initials on the reg! Whilst I don't envy the golden child in some ways, I don't enjoy having my nose rubbed in it either.
 
Suppose it wouldn’t be possible that this 3 year old, turned away for a few months to “let down”, then brought back in, fed a proper diet, whilst still being turned out each day, worked for a few weeks….turned away again, to grow …then brought back into proper work with diet for work being done, could become a much loved companion to wander the countryside with its owner on whatever hack they choose? For many years….
 
Oh dear, I don’t think this forum could help with all that, luckily you seem to have reached a maturity and come to terms with things anyway. Families, eh?😬
 
Marshpiper said:
Suppose it wouldn’t be possible that this 3 year old, turned away for a few months to “let down”, then brought back in, fed a proper diet, whilst still being turned out each day, worked for a few weeks….turned away again, to grow …then brought back into proper work with diet for work being done, could become a much loved companion to wander the countryside with its owner on whatever hack they choose? For many years….
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Yes , yes it could. That could end up being the most perfect home. 🏠

The point is also, this 3 yo could trip in the field one day and competing days are over just like that! It could go to the wrong home and be pushed too far too young and end up f@ckd. Then what…

And then again it might just hate competing, its not for all horses. Some don’t like it 😃
 
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