Not worthy....

SaddlePsych'D said:
Given they mention hacking for other horses advertised, it seems less likely it's about being anti hacking homes and more about the individual horse and what the seller thinks would be a good fit based on what they know of her.
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This!

Dealers are regularly being done over on HHO for allegedly miss-selling horses who are not as described when all the purchaser wants is a nice easy type.

So a dealer still gets done over for stating that the horse is not suited to the happy hacker market, even though some of their other horses are?

As Red says, this is likely a horse with an engine who will need proper riding and an attentive rider.
 
Can't say I see an issue with a seller who has assessed the horse in front of them and decided it may not be suitable for a hacking home... what happened to horses for courses? It's not a stretch of the imagination to think a 3yo TB may not be suitable for a hacking home.

Why do people get their backs up about this? Yes hacking may need a slightly different skill set to competing, but there is a lot of cross over and, shock horror, there are plenty of horses and riders who can do, and enjoy, both. It's all well and good to say not all happy hackers are nervous nellies who are unbalanced and only ride their overweight cob at the weekend, but on the flip side, not all people who compete are prize hungry, never turn their horse out and pass them on as soon as they can't do their 'job'! Works both ways, there are good and bad in both camps.
 
Kevin is defo not anti hacking homes, he sold me Orbi knowing fine well he was going to potter around the countryside with a middle aged woman! Treated like a king 🥰If he had any sort of problem with that, Orbi would have been sold to a different home.
I think in this instance she may have potential and presence and he would like to see her go to a competition home.
 
I think part of the issue was seeing it in isolation rather than in context.

I hesitated before sharing as I didn't want the seller to suddenly get lots of people commenting in the same vein as here and just mentioned that there were a variety of horses. However in the end people needed to see for themselves.

Stunning filly but not quite my type and she's going to be a lot of horse once she fills out and possibly grows.
 
Red-1 said:
Thank you for that.

She is a LOT of horse! She is also taken already - unavailable.

I like some of them on the page, not so much others. Many seem to be advertised as a good hack, or who can be retrained for any job.

I don't see how someone could get upset at any of the adverts TBH. I would be grateful that the seller is trying to place the horses to the best of their ability.

Reading between the lines, I would say that this mare has an engine and needs someone who has core strength and inbuilt reflexes to stay on top of, and improve, her balance.

She would be too much horse for me now, I'm sure! I'll stick with my trusty ID X. He gives me a minute to recompose if I lose my balance and gives me a second if I am not paying attention!
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Precisely.
Quite frankly some people need to loose the whopping great chips on their shoulder.

If I were selling that horse I would categorically sell it to the type of home the seller was clearly pitching to.

I’m an experienced rider. But these days I ‘only’ hack. I’m on yards where it’s primarily competition horses. They ALL hack. Some do so naturally, some do so well after training to do so, some have less natural inclination to do so but with good management can be hand held to do so. Both my current ones fall more into the first category but are sensitive enough they would unravel pretty quickly with the wrong person. So I wouldn’t sell them into a happy hacking home unless I knew that person VERY well.

Equally, if I was looking for a horse for myself to buy primarily as a happy hacking, I would not consider either of my current two, or the tb filly this thread is about. Even if in the right circumstances all 3 could be made into happy hackers. Roll the dice in your favour people and don’t be so quick to take offence where offence isn’t intended!
 
When I bought one of my ex racers, there was a question mark about him hacking alone and the seller established that I was on a yard with lots of people to hack with. It took some work but Frankie decided that exploring the countryside was preferable to going round a school (unless jumps were involved) and was actually a fabulous hack.

However kudos to the seller for making sure I knew what I was getting.
 
Burnerbee said:
Yes, it’s daft … “this horse has a strong desire to do Grand Prix even though it’s fully aware that means a life of boredom, perhaps pain and potential misery - it likes that idea better than that of long rides on the beach / through the woods”

Said no horse, ever.
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Alternatively, “this horse prefers the consistency and safety of the arena, instead of the novel and variable stressors it is forced to face on beaches or in woodland. It has a brain which (for better or for worse) has been bred to need instruction and a job, and as such struggles to cope with the minimal direction it receives on hacks.”
 
equinerebel said:
I know people who only hack and have no idea how to ride correctly, I also know people who compete and also have no idea how to ride correctly 🤷🏻‍♀️
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Completely agree.
The horses suffers in both situations.

In a competitive situation there is feedback from poor scores/performance and it’s also within a regulated environment. There are officials to theoretically step in if it becomes dangerous and medics on hand.

Hacking is uncontrolled. ANYONE can theoretically take an unsuitable horse out on public roads and land and not only put themselves and the horse at risk but also innocent members of the public. So if a seller has a horse that they feel might not be optimal in that situation they are acting responsibly but not pushing it into that situation
 
stangs said:
If I went on AAD and said I was planning on buying a working lines Malinois to accompany me on walks and do nothing else, people would quite rightly tell me that that’s a stupid decision. I might reply saying “don’t look down on those of us who don’t do dog sport - I’m just as capable as socialising a Mali and training it to walk nicely as anyone else” but that’s besides the point. The point is that the dog is genetically unsuited for the job. It might end up coping after all but selling that dog to me would be setting it up to fail.

As we’ve all agreed, horses who do the happy hacking job need a specific skillset. It’s not inferior to the skillset of the competition horse - if anything, it may be even more demanding - but it is still a skillset not all horses can develop. And, as much as many TBs do become happy hackers, that’s not what they’re bred for so many won’t ever be suitable for the job.

The dealers saying that they won’t sell to a happy hacking home is just them saying that they don’t think the horse can develop that skillset. That’s all.
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Quite. A breeder (very politely) declined to sell me a Kelpie puppy when I enquired about his litter last year, despite us living on a smallholding, having breed experience and doing low-level dog sport (training only, I don't compete). He wouldn't consider any home that didn't have sheep to work.

I wasn't offended, I just assumed that he knew very well the kind of dogs he'd bred.

And we went and found one of different lines that had been sold to someone who was a really bad fit for the breed in general (but who fortunately had realised their mistake a month in).
 
Burnerbee said:
Yes, it’s daft … “this horse has a strong desire to do Grand Prix even though it’s fully aware that means a life of boredom, perhaps pain and potential misery - it likes that idea better than that of long rides on the beach / through the woods”

Said no horse, ever.
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If you're going down that road, then perhaps has any horse 'ever' said they'd like to be ridden...

Like it or not, humans have bred some animals with a purpose in mind. And for want of a better word, those bred to do a 'job' tend to have an active mind that needs regular stimulation to keep them on an even keel.
 
I will always applaud a seller who has given proper thought to what type of home they think will suit the horse they are selling. To judge their brain, their personality, look at their history and their potential and think about who is the right person to buy them. If they find the right home they may well avoid this horse from being another one that's passed around and bounced between homes and dealers.

I also think it's fair to want a competition for a horse you've ether trained or bred, for the horse to be shown off. It may not be that the horse has ambition (!) but successful horses become adverts for the trainer, breeder or breed (particularly in the case of ROR or other types less obvious when it comes to successful competition). If you think you've got a good one I don't think it's wrong to want them to be in the spotlight, so long as that also suits the personality and interests of the horse (e.g. avoiding a serious eventing home if there's a known physical weakness).

The happy hacker is a specific type of horse and I don't think it's wrong to suggest that not every horse will take to that lifestyle; I know many a serious competition horse that wouldn't have the right brain for it (however much their riders have tried!)
 
AandK said:
If you're going down that road, then perhaps has any horse 'ever' said they'd like to be ridden...

Like it or not, humans have bred some animals with a purpose in mind. And for want of a better word, those bred to do a 'job' tend to have an active mind that needs regular stimulation to keep them on an even keel.
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I’ve no problem with horses using their brain and energy - just don’t make it something that’s aesthetic / pointless / weird / for humans to show off / entirely for profit / cruel.
 
Horses aren't built to carry weight on their backs.

I suppose it could be argued camels are because of the humps and wide feet but I'm not sure on other species....Maybe there's not any.

Humans are weird.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Horses aren't built to carry weight on their backs.

I suppose it could be argued camels are because of the humps and wide feet but I'm not sure on other species....Maybe there's not any.

Humans are weird.
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Humans domesticated horses for lots of very sensible reasons. They were more biddable than oxen; faster. They provided a form of transport to ride or drive that simply was not available before the steam engine. In parts of the world where there were not ideal conditions for horses people domesticated other animals for the same purpose.

Now horses still sometimes provide transport where terrain or other considerations makes vehicles less ideal. In some countries they are a farm animal that is eaten like any other (we are omnivores by design after all). Riding and driving gives life and a purpose to those who are left. If they were not kept for sport, they would not be bred at all.
 
maya2008 said:
Humans domesticated horses for lots of very sensible reasons. They were more biddable than oxen; faster. They provided a form of transport to ride or drive that simply was not available before the steam engine. In parts of the world where there were not ideal conditions for horses people domesticated other animals for the same purpose.

Now horses still sometimes provide transport where terrain or other considerations makes vehicles less ideal. In some countries they are a farm animal that is eaten like any other (we are omnivores by design after all). Riding and driving gives life and a purpose to those who are left. If they were not kept for sport, they would not be bred at all.
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Oh I know I just still think it's weird we're the only species that chooses to ride on other ones 🤷
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Oh I know I just still think it's weird we're the only species that chooses to ride on other ones 🤷
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We are not really though, plenty of examples in the natural world of one species utilising another to their benefit. ‘Riding’ in our sense (entertainment) would be a push, but hitching a ride maybe!
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Oh I know I just still think it's weird we're the only species that chooses to ride on other ones 🤷
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We’ve the only ones who’ve taken it as far as we have, but there’s plenty of species that ‘ride’ others. Who knows, maybe in a decade or so, there’ll be research available on how macaques have started using tack-like tools to sit on sika deer better. It’s certainly not beyond the realm of possibility.
 
ihatework said:
We are not really though, plenty of examples in the natural world of one species utilising another to their benefit. ‘Riding’ in our sense (entertainment) would be a push, but hitching a ride maybe!
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In response to this I was going to say "as a fairly widespread thing rather than just chance one-offs"

Then I saw this reply and realised that answered it so thank you both:)
stangs said:
We’ve the only ones who’ve taken it as far as we have, but there’s plenty of species that ‘ride’ others. Who knows, maybe in a decade or so, there’ll be research available on how macaques have started using tack-like tools to sit on sika deer better. It’s certainly not beyond the realm of possibility.
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The article reminded me there is remora , a type of fish that travels on whales.
They can swim on their own but mostly suck onto whales for food and protection so where the whales go, the remora go, too.
 
I think you're overthinking it. To me a "happy hacker" is someone who wants to be able to get their horse out the field on a sunny weekend afternoon and go for a nice quiet hack with friends, then potentially put it back in the field for a week or 2. I know plenty of people like this, they would gladly call themselves 'happy hackers'. They do not want a horse that needs schooling to be able to do so, they don't want to ride if it's raining or cold to keep the horse sane. They do not want a horse that is going to spook dramatically at it's own shadow on said hack, and they do not want a horse that needs riding several times a week to make sure they don't rodeo down the driveway setting out on said hack.

I've got one of the latter horses, I love him for all his quirks because he is super talented and always gives me that extra 10%. But he is exhausting at times, and would I put up with his bullsh!$#t if i just wanted to go for a nice hack with friends now and again - would I heck. My mare on the other hand you could pull out the field twice a month to go for a hack and she'd be delighted with that lifestyle. If I were ever to sell them I would consider that in the homes I chose for them.

Both my horses hack several times a week and I enjoy hacking them both, but a happy hacker that does not make them.
 
wills_91 said:
Why do people assume if something is questioned that the person doing the questioning is upset/offended/has a chip on there shoulder.

I saw the advert, before this thread & immediately thought it came across a bit "knobby" it didn't offend or upset me though and I don't think it did @Caol Ila either.
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Because that was the impression from the words written in the thread.

The question specifically asked in the OP was 'are happy hackers seen as less worthy than competition riders?'

That reads as a bit chip-on-the-shoulder to me firstly because it wouldn't occur to me to even care, and secondly because the word 'worthy' is a very value-loaded word to use if the question was purely just for interest.
 
In my experience people who choose to compete don't spend half as much time thinking about what people who choose not to compete are up to, as they seem to worry that they do.

The average conversation on my yard goes something like:

"What are you up to this weekend?"
"Oh we've got an event over in X - how about you?"
"Weather looks nice in the morning, I think we're going to hack down to the river"
"Oh lovely - have a great time"
"You too - good luck"
"Thanks so much"

I don't think either party goes away questioning the other's life choices, but maybe I'm just very naive!
 
I think @frankieduck has got the summary spot on with post #145. There are happy hackers who go out as much as possible, and their horses could be in as much work as a competition horse, but I would take that advert wording as stopping the ones who do only go out twice a month for a pootle thinking ooh how pretty, I'll buy her! If you know you can handle a busy horse, and do actually "work" enough to keep them happy (because many people use hacking to get/keep their competition horses fit, don't they?), just without the show at the end, I don't think it'd be a problem either. I haven't seen the advert, but have seen similar. I think it's open of them to say that the horse is a hot type (usually that only comes across to some people when you say competitive home), rather than lying and saying "oh yeah, take your nan round the block this one will!". At the end of the day, horses are mainly going to be ridden, and it should be a partnership and both parties should be happy and suitable for each other. Welfare and care shouldn't need to be mentioned, but as we know not everyone has the horses best interests at heart, but that's a whole different thread
 
Wills_91 nailed it. Perhaps I should have said “non competitive riders” or something. I was questioning the whole part of horse culture that “needs” to compete and therefore the idea that certain horses “need” competition homes. You can train and ride in any discipline you want without ever going to a show. Competence may vary but that’s true no matter what.

I was questioning the ethics of saying, this horse is such a great mover that it must compete. Of course, the ad could be read as, the horse is a nutbar and requires a rider with balls and dedication. I know that. Or it could be read as, this horse is so fancy that we feel she would be ‘wasted’ by not going to horse shows.
 
If I was looking and that is obviously never going to happen again, but IF then I would be looking for a nice happy hacker, and if someone is selling a horse that they clearly don't think would suit a happy hacker home I would be very grateful for them not wasting my time or theirs by stating very clearly in the advert they don't think their horse would suit what I want to do. I really struggle to see a problem, the more detail and guidance to type and potential or not in the advert is just damn helpful when you are wading through reams of gushing 'can do anything plus jump the moon' type adverts. A good majority of those clearly cannot do anything much in a skilled and well trained way when you actually take the trouble to look them over. I like honest adverts personally.
 
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