Nova - what's going on with her?

[J_sarahd]

I thought I'd create a little thread about my investigations into what's going on with Nova as I know a few of you are aware we are currently having some trouble. People might be interested or people might not be. I've posted on a few threads about her and a few of you have seen the video of her from a few weeks ago.

She's been quite good recently - I've been lunging and long-lining in various bits of tack (lunging with just a cavesson, lunging with a saddle, long-lining with her bridle etc) to try and narrow it down a bit. And, apart from her taking off with me twice on the long-lines (I am putting this down to her season because she then pranced along the fence-line next to a gelding) and having 2-0 feet on the floor & being spooky to walk over a pole in yesterday's lunging session, she's been nice and forward, and started to gradually do a nice stretchy trot - which is miles away from what we used to get.

Today marks our first day of officially "investigating", as she is off for an overnight stay today at our horsepital for a gastroscope in the morning. I'm very anxious about leaving her but I know she will be looked after brilliantly. I don't know whether I want there to be ulcers or not.

If there are (which is the more likely of the two scenarios), I have a bit of a start point to go from. Treat the ulcers and go from there - basically. As a thoroughbred who went through training, it is obviously highly likely that she has them and it's not related to pain, but then there's always the chance that they are related to pain somewhere. She lives a pretty ulcer-friendly life: I always make sure she has enough hay overnight (I get ridiculed for how big her net is, but I like to make sure there's some left over in the morning), she's turned out from 8am - 5pm in the winter, she gets chance to eat her net before I tack her up, I warm her up slowly. She's currently fed Topspec Comprehensive Balancer, Alfa A, aloe vera juice, agnus castus and a mug of Ulsakind in her treat ball overnight.

If there aren't, it's obviously opening it up for even further investigations. A lot of people have given me their opinions of what it could be and there's a lot of avenues to investigate - which I guess is a good position to be in rather than having no clue where to start.

So, yes, I guess I am going on a little journey that I never expected to go on so soon after buying her. But hey that's horses for you!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I hope that you find something easy to treat but I would take her off the alfalfa, many horses can't treated it it, and change your balancer, there are lots if posts about TopSpec upsetting some horses, although I have no personal experience. I do, however, gave successful experience of giving AVJ

 

[J_sarahd]

I hope that you find something easy to treat but I would take her off the alfalfa, many horses can't treated it it, and change your balancer, there are lots if posts about TopSpec upsetting some horses, although I have no personal experience. I do, however, gave successful experience of giving AVJ

Thank you. To be fair, her current feed has put a lot of condition her since I got her - which was its main job. I will be looking to switch it up anyway due to cost, and depending on what they find tomorrow and advice from my vet. So once I get more info etc I will be calling on the knowledge of HHO to help figure out a new feed regime for her

 

[LEC]

If it’s ulcers make sure you get the injections of omezeprole as results are much stronger. Also much easier. I have to be very careful with my ex racer as even electrolytes upset his stomach.

 

[J_sarahd]

If it’s ulcers make sure you get the injections of omezeprole as results are much stronger. Also much easier. I have to be very careful with my ex racer as even electrolytes upset his stomach.

I’ve been doing so much reading on ulcer treatment as my boy was treated with cytotec and sucralfate each time so I don’t really know much about the other types of treatment and I read a lot of positives and negatives about the injections. But my friend got her horse injected and said he was absolutely fine.

That’s interesting. To be fair I am thinking of cutting out all feed with just a small handful of something as a carrier for supplements and lots of hay, especially as she will be going on her winter break soon anyway.

 

[Birker2020]

I thought my horse had ulcers as he was very girthy but that was the only symptom other than hearing him grinding his teeth twice in 8 months. Anyway turned out he didn't and it was due to pressure from doing up the girth as he's got kissing spine.

I was really surprised he didn't as his been a competition horse for a number of years on some big yards, and I just thought it was a given.

I hope you find an answer for your girl, do keep us updated.

 

[J_sarahd]

I thought my horse had ulcers as he was very girthy but that was the only symptom other than hearing him grinding his teeth twice in 8 months. Anyway turned out he didn't and it was due to pressure from doing up the girth as he's got kissing spine.

I was really surprised he didn't as his been a competition horse for a number of years on some big yards, and I just thought it was a given.

I hope you find an answer for your girl, do keep us updated.

Thank you - yes kissing spines is on the list for things to investigate if there aren’t any ulcers.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I agree above, ditch the alfalfa ?and anything cereal based

 

[J_sarahd]

Once I get the results from the scope tomorrow, I will be asking for feed recs. As I said, I was going off recommendations from professionals plus my own experience with ulcers. But happy to have recommendations (especially if they will work out cheaper).

 

[J_sarahd]

Just got off the phone to the vets. She has mild ulcers and a bit of scarring where they’ve been trying to heal. We’ve been given a two week course of omeprezole and he said we don’t need to scope afterwards unless I am concerned again. I am going to give her a couple of quiet days and then slowly bring her back to see if the treatment has helped the issues we were having in any way.

He kept calling her “him” on the phone and I didn’t dare correct him!

If anyone has any feed recs for a rising 4 year old in not much work who is currently a good weight (489kg at 15.3hh) but needs topline, let me know. As I mentioned, during her winter break, I will cut it right back to just a handful of something to carry supplements and lots of hay. Also any supplement recommendations to keep ulcers at bay!

 

[Barton Bounty]

I feed an ulcer friendly diet.
Coostance copra
Micronised Linseed
Honeychop lite and healthy
And fibre nuts that are soya free(hg lea i think)

 

[LEC]

I have mine on Saracen releve mix and cubes (cubes are 14% protein which is great). I feed brewers yeast and limestone flour daily. My vits and ms have probiotics in.
I have gastric comfort from Feedmark which is fed with chaff before riding (I have a feed bowl which hooks on stable door) and fed anytime the horse is about to travel or is away. I also have Gastrogard for long trips and give half a tube before travelling.
This was all developed for a horse with bad ulcers and seems to have solved the issue. The ex racer is also on this diet as just as easy to do.

 

[Tracking_up]

If anyone has any feed recs for a rising 4 year old in not much work who is currently a good weight (489kg at 15.3hh) but needs topline, let me know. As I mentioned, during her winter break, I will cut it right back to just a handful of something to carry supplements and lots of hay. Also any supplement recommendations to keep ulcers at bay!

Good to hear the vet stay has found something that is treatable

But turning to the quote [the italics are my italics], I'm confused about you wanting to put on topline by feed? Topline comes from being worked correctly, not by feed. Yes feed (especially protein) can help build muscles, but the muscles have to work first. I'm not sure where your girl is, work-wise, but as a rising 4, I suspect/hope very little. Plenty of time for top line to build with correct work.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would feed ad-lib hay and a fibre based bucket food if she is not holding her weight.

I would seriously consider giving her the rest of the winter off she is so young and already been in race training, she needs time to grow up and just be a baby.

Topline is not made with feed I wouldn't worry about that right now she has years ahead of her of the right work to make topline.

 

[BBP]

Just got off the phone to the vets. She has mild ulcers and a bit of scarring where they’ve been trying to heal. We’ve been given a two week course of omeprezole and he said we don’t need to scope afterwards unless I am concerned again. I am going to give her a couple of quiet days and then slowly bring her back to see if the treatment has helped the issues we were having in any way.

He kept calling her “him” on the phone and I didn’t dare correct him! View attachment 103464

If anyone has any feed recs for a rising 4 year old in not much work who is currently a good weight (489kg at 15.3hh) but needs topline, let me know. As I mentioned, during her winter break, I will cut it right back to just a handful of something to carry supplements and lots of hay. Also any supplement recommendations to keep ulcers at bay!

Interesting how vets differ (and obviously keeping in mind that your horses ulcers might be completely different to mine). Mine had small ulcers near the pylorus and I’m pretty sure had two months of omeprazole and sucralfate. I gave him a complete break from work for the first month. Having had suspected ulcers myself from overuse of ibuprofen, I can say that it took weeks on omeprazole before I would have contemplated going for a run, so I think some vets aren’t that sympathetic when they say to bring back to work quick quickly! The treatment did transform him though, he struggles with tension but his anxiety had been through the roof and he was so much happier and safer to ride post treatment.

 

[J_sarahd]

Good to hear the vet stay has found something that is treatable

But turning to the quote [the italics are my italics], I'm confused about you wanting to put on topline by feed? Topline comes from being worked correctly, not by feed. Yes feed (especially protein) can help build muscles, but the muscles have to work first. I'm not sure where your girl is, work-wise, but as a rising 4, I suspect/hope very little. Plenty of time for top line to build with correct work.

Oh yes I am very aware that topline comes from correct work. I was just trying to give a broad picture of her so people kind of understand a bit better. I am by no means expecting a miracle feed that puts on topline!

 

[J_sarahd]

I would feed ad-lib hay and a fibre based bucket food if she is not holding her weight.

I would seriously consider giving her the rest of the winter off she is so young and already been in race training, she needs time to grow up and just be a baby.

Topline is not made with feed I wouldn't worry about that right now she has years ahead of her of the right work to make topline.

Sorry I just reread and it wasn’t clear - by bringing her back into work, I am just going to get her to a point where I can see if there’s even a slight improvement and then she will have the time off until next year. It will probably be a quick 5 minute sit!

 

[Patterdale]

By going away for her winter break do you mean turned away 24/7?
If so I’d just do that now and reassess in spring. 24/7 grass/haylage and she won’t need any feed or supplements.

After a winter/6 months in the field, any little issues will have resolved themselves, and any that haven’t will then warrant investigation. I wouldn’t be working, feeding or stressing about her now, I’d just chuck her out.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I don't think 2 weeks on ulcer treatment is long at all most horses I've known were on it for at least 2 months.

 

[J_sarahd]

Interesting how vets differ (and obviously keeping in mind that your horses ulcers might be completely different to mine). Mine had small ulcers near the pylorus and I’m pretty sure had two months of omeprazole and sucralfate. I gave him a complete break from work for the first month. Having had suspected ulcers myself from overuse of ibuprofen, I can say that it took weeks on omeprazole before I would have contemplated going for a run, so I think some vets aren’t that sympathetic when they say to bring back to work quick quickly! The treatment did transform him though, he struggles with tension but his anxiety had been through the roof and he was so much happier and safer to ride post treatment.

Yeah I was a bit shocked when he told me but I’ll just have to do what he says and then see how she is

 

[J_sarahd]

By going away for her winter break do you mean turned away 24/7?
If so I’d just do that now and reassess in spring. 24/7 grass/haylage and she won’t need any feed or supplements.

After a winter/6 months in the field, any little issues will have resolved themselves, and any that haven’t will then warrant investigation. I wouldn’t be working, feeding or stressing about her now, I’d just chuck her out.

Okay, thank you. That makes sense

 

[J_sarahd]

I don't think 2 weeks on ulcer treatment is long at all most horses I've known were on it for at least 2 months.

I did think this too. Previous horse was on 6 weeks meds, friends horse was on 4 weeks. All I can do is see what she’s like after the two weeks.

 

[humblepie]

Just a comment on the ulcer friendly life - my previous ex racehorse worked hard as a racehorse eventer then show horse. Lots of turn out alongside the work. Retired into hacking and lots of turn out. Had ulcers when retired and no one waking him up at 4am to go to a show. Vet didn’t even suspect it as a cause. I suggested it might be. Hope all goes well.

 

[Patterdale]

Okay, thank you. That makes sense

It can be hard to see the wood for the trees when you’re the one living it, with the horse in front of you and people telling you what you should do.
But personally, I wouldn’t even have scoped, I’d have just turned away and see what happened in summer.

If you go looking for problems/things to throw money at then you will generally find them. Most issues with horses (or any animal) will resolve with the right conditions in which to heal - ie rest, food and a natural lifestyle. Anything still not right after that are the only things that need looking at in my humble opinion.

 

[J_sarahd]

It can be hard to see the wood for the trees when you’re the one living it, with the horse in front of you and people telling you what you should do.
But personally, I wouldn’t even have scoped, I’d have just turned away and see what happened in summer.

If you go looking for problems/things to throw money at then you will generally find them. Most issues with horses (or any animal) will resolve with the right conditions in which to heal - ie rest, food and a natural lifestyle. Anything still not right after that are the only things that need looking at in my humble opinion.

Thank you, that does make a lot of sense. You are right about going looking for problems and you’ll find them! I honestly just what to do right by her so much. She’s the sweetest girl I’ve ever met and I am very lucky. I’ve blocked out her entire December and January as rest and I’ll see what happens in February when she is technically 4 and if she needs more time off, she will get it. I think that’s the beauty of youngsters, I’ve (hopefully!! Fingers crossed) got years and years with her to do what I want to.

 

[Patterdale]

I wouldn’t think I’d bringing her back until she’s had a good 5-6 months. 2 ain’t going to do much. You want her in the middle of the summer and fat as butter on the grass starting again IMO. No point otherwise.
But that’s my last two pennarth! ?

Best of luck with her

 

[TheMule]

Thank you, that does make a lot of sense. You are right about going looking for problems and you’ll find them! I honestly just what to do right by her so much. She’s the sweetest girl I’ve ever met and I am very lucky. I’ve blocked out her entire December and January as rest and I’ll see what happens in February when she is technically 4 and if she needs more time off, she will get it. I think that’s the beauty of youngsters, I’ve (hopefully!! Fingers crossed) got years and years with her to do what I want to.

February is the month of doom
For even the sanest horse IMO!
Give her until April, let the weather warm up and everyone to get over their winter high jinks!

 

[TPO]

The norm used to be giving a horse 12 continuous weeks off and without shoes to repair their hooves.

Hunters had summer off and competition horses had winter. Of course nowadays there are far more leisure horses that are never in anything beyond light work.

I've posted about it before but some well respected farriers wrote an article detailing how they are seeing so many more hoof dysfunctions and diseases due to shoeing year round/no 3mth break.

Not that I've looked but I'd not stumbled across any papers by vets/physios etc but antidotal evidence is that there are more issues that keep reoccurring and the horse isn't given enough time to "right" itself.

The fact that she is 3 and out of racing at the most I'd have done 6wks pottering about and then turned away, although knowing me who's slower than a snail probably a week to check buttons then let down. I'd imagine her immature body(incl hooves) needs a rest and time.

I had an ex racer scope the same as yours; very few grade 1/2 ulcers and scars from healed ulcers, so his out of racing regime was working. He wasn't scoped because he displayed any ulcery symptoms. That was 2011/12 but I'm sure he had 6wk gastroguard course so 2wks doesn't sound like long at all.

 

[Alibear]

Amber just had two weeks of treatment and no follow-up scope and seems to have been much better since. We're over a year on from that now. I'm a fan of the scracen re-leve and they do a musli based competition balancer which has their tummy supplement in it as well which I use over spring and summer when she doesn't need the extra calories of re-leve.

 

[J_sarahd]

Amber just had two weeks of treatment and no follow-up scope and seems to have been much better since. We're over a year on from that now. I'm a fan of the scracen re-leve and they do a musli based competition balancer which has their tummy supplement in it as well which I use over spring and summer when she doesn't need the extra calories of re-leve.

This has made me feel better about the plan we’ve been given. I was thinking it was odd/short, but a success story of similar is good to hear. I’ve looked into releve to be fair but didn’t know if it was just a bit too much for her