ROG
Well-Known Member
VOSA can prosecute any vehicle on UK roads including trailers for being overloaded
Now I am really confused Re towing legalities.
- Thread starter birdof1977
- Start date
Mike007
Well-Known Member
If you you look at my post earlier you will see that it doesnt matter who puts the plate on ,provided that it meets the requirements of the construction and use regulations.The information it must contain is given in schedule 8 . It is a simple matter of law that no other legislation (except for superior legislation) can alter or modify the conditions for putting that plate on the trailer.So driver and vehicle licensing regulations and even the road vehicles approval regulations whilst they may refer to plates ,they cannot impinge on how they are fitted ,the information they give and by whom they are fitted. These plates effectively"belong to" the C&U regs.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Not strictly true . Because trailers under 3.5 tonnes do not have a ministry plate ,there is no set legal limit .I believe this is the point that popsdosh was making. The offence would be that of using the vehicle in a dangerous condition.The same thing applies to a large number of other road going vehicles for example agricultural tractors.
birdof1977
Well-Known Member
I have no intention of towing over the legal weight limits. So I wont have a problem in that respect. I understand What you are saying in regard to insurance etc though.
Even if Vosa choose to prosecute you for being over weight they must legally first determine without doubt that you ARE in fact over weight. And the only way to do that is to weigh the vehicle trailer and load. And according to the booklet that Vosa themselves published, what is written on the weight plates bears NO relevance. It is all determined by the actual combined weight, and what you are legally entitled to drive.
This is my point! No where in that statement issued by vosa does it refer to dvla's towing restrictions, although it does as certain points in the booklet.
According to the statement 'combined legal weight' mine being 3.5 ton it seriously implies that as long as both vehicle and trailer and load come in at under this weight irrespective of any weights written on any plates and as lond as your vehicle is legally able to tow the weight you are pulling , then you are legal. I understand fully the DVLA laws surtounding towing trailers and the restrictions in place and am compling to these laws.My.point is irrespective of what the plated weight of a trailer is. As long as your actual load weight doesnt go over what the gross weight states and both the combined weight of trailer and load is at your individual legal weight requirement you are legal.
Even if Vosa choose to prosecute you for being over weight they must legally first determine without doubt that you ARE in fact over weight. And the only way to do that is to weigh the vehicle trailer and load. And according to the booklet that Vosa themselves published, what is written on the weight plates bears NO relevance. It is all determined by the actual combined weight, and what you are legally entitled to drive.
This is my point! No where in that statement issued by vosa does it refer to dvla's towing restrictions, although it does as certain points in the booklet.
According to the statement 'combined legal weight' mine being 3.5 ton it seriously implies that as long as both vehicle and trailer and load come in at under this weight irrespective of any weights written on any plates and as lond as your vehicle is legally able to tow the weight you are pulling , then you are legal. I understand fully the DVLA laws surtounding towing trailers and the restrictions in place and am compling to these laws.My.point is irrespective of what the plated weight of a trailer is. As long as your actual load weight doesnt go over what the gross weight states and both the combined weight of trailer and load is at your individual legal weight requirement you are legal.
ROG
Well-Known Member
The last few lines of that could get you into big trouble because both plated weights and licencing laws must be adhered to
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
That is my point exactly Mike007 the plate on the trailer although mandatory to have fitted is in all intents and purposes meaningless as it is a manufacturers advised maximum weight and not Statutory.I have personally been stopped by VOSA (we farm next to a weighbridge of theirs) with about 4 ton on a 3.5t trailer and the police did not consider it dangerous as was being pulled by a tractor at the time it was they who told me the plate was meaningless
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
A trailer 3.5t or under does not have a statutory plated weight!
ROG
Well-Known Member
I have just had a phone call with member geebee45 who is the absolute 'know all' on this and has advised to look up ...
C&U regs 100 and 66
RTA regs 40 & 41A
I will look them up tomorrow because he states they will confirm all that I have said
He also confirmed that ONLY the trailer manufacturer can put on or change a plate
Like I said before - its good to have an expert on speed dial
Those that do not believe can always PM this member or check out his previous posts on this site .... and others if you google that username
C&U regs 100 and 66
RTA regs 40 & 41A
I will look them up tomorrow because he states they will confirm all that I have said
He also confirmed that ONLY the trailer manufacturer can put on or change a plate
Like I said before - its good to have an expert on speed dial
Those that do not believe can always PM this member or check out his previous posts on this site .... and others if you google that username
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
Yes PLATED weights as others have said under 3.5 tons its manuftures DESIGN weights
What I would like to know Has anyone been stopped and cautioned for the offence of towing a trailer with a design weight greater than there licence catorgory allows and then gone to court to argue it as apposed to just accepting a ticket and paying the fine????..
ROG
Well-Known Member
I would imagine that if any have contested it then it would have dealt with by magistrates
As it would be an absolute offence then probably any who have considered contesting have taken the advice not to
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
So you dont think anyone has?? it looks like a real grey area to me with a good chance of being found not guilty!!
ROG
Well-Known Member
As a layperson with no law degree I can see that its an easy absolute offence
It would be so easy for a cop to do at the roadside for the GVW + MAM weight total but not so easy for the kerbweight rule
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Rog I think you mean sections 40a and 41 of the road traffic act.This is an empowering act enabling the secretary of state for transport to make regulations (construction and use regulations).Nowhere in any of the legislation your friend has refered to ,does it state that the plate must only be fitted by the manufacturer.
If a prosecution were made,it would initialy be heard at magistrates court level .subsequent appeals would be in a higher court .There is no such thing as an absolute offence,they are offences of strict liability.It would certainly be an interesting argument ,and one I would love to present. There are for example significant inconsistencies in the way the Driver and vehicle licensing regulations refer to and define MAM,and the constructionand use regulations . For example are they refering to the maximum gross weight (design) or the maximum gross weight (legal) and what about those trailers which do not display certain information because of their age and exemption.
The simple fact is that the CPS will never prosecute someone for a licensing offence with a trailer under 3.5 tonnes where the trailer is being operated at a lower weight than the MGW and within the limits of the license,even if the plate actualy gives a higher figure.
If a prosecution were made,it would initialy be heard at magistrates court level .subsequent appeals would be in a higher court .There is no such thing as an absolute offence,they are offences of strict liability.It would certainly be an interesting argument ,and one I would love to present. There are for example significant inconsistencies in the way the Driver and vehicle licensing regulations refer to and define MAM,and the constructionand use regulations . For example are they refering to the maximum gross weight (design) or the maximum gross weight (legal) and what about those trailers which do not display certain information because of their age and exemption.
The simple fact is that the CPS will never prosecute someone for a licensing offence with a trailer under 3.5 tonnes where the trailer is being operated at a lower weight than the MGW and within the limits of the license,even if the plate actualy gives a higher figure.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
That is only the case when you are actually over the weight but not if you merely pulling a trailer that is capable of it as manufacturer plates are meaningless in this instance!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Sorry popsdosh ,this is not quite true(I made the same error by not checking DVLR interpretations)Here is a direct quote.
maximum authorised mass has the same meaning
(a)in relation to goods vehicles as permissible maximum weight in section 108(1) of the Traffic Act, and
(b)in relation to any other vehicle or trailer as maximum gross weight in regulation 3(2) of the Construction and Use Regulations;
The real problem is that this was sloppy legislation .
wench
Well-Known Member
Or easier to work out if you do the trailer test!
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
If that rule was taken to its ultimate conclusion it would mean that nobody without grandfather rights could legally tow any trailer with over run brakes without taking their trailer test .This is because the only weight restriction under construction and use on this type of trailer is 3.5Tmaximum
perfect11s
Well-Known Member
Yes true, and as per my previous post why is it considered safe to tow a trailer under a certain abtary weight but not over without taking a test its just stupid and pointless like so many laws,eu directives and petty regulations!!! anyone else think we are ruled by Mongs...
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I didnt explain myself well. Its a legal thing
. Just because the dvlr uses the term MAM and the C&U uses the term MGW we cannot assume that they mean the same thing.There is a section in most such statutory instruments near the begining called "interpretations". Here a number of important terms are defined. What I quoted was the definition of MAM from the DVL regs. Its significance is that it is the link betwean MAM in the DVLregs and MGW in the C&U. Now since MGW is given on the trailer plate ,MAM is also infered for the DVLR .I understand exactly the point you were making. Had this been a quote from a regulation rather than what is in effect a dictionary definition it would certainly have put the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Hi ,I just wanted to say openly that I have the greatest of respect for Rog and everything he has done for us all. The problem with law is that it is rather aggressive and I do get a bit carried away
. SO! I wouldnt like anyone to thjinl I am trying to take a shot at Rog,because I most certainly am not.I do wANT SOME ANWERS HERE AND IF WHAT i HOPE IS SEEN AS LIVELY DEBATE ,HELPS ,THEN GOOD.
. SO! I wouldnt like anyone to thjinl I am trying to take a shot at Rog,because I most certainly am not.I do wANT SOME ANWERS HERE AND IF WHAT i HOPE IS SEEN AS LIVELY DEBATE ,HELPS ,THEN GOOD.
ROG
Well-Known Member
Hi ,I just wanted to say openly that I have the greatest of respect for Rog and everything he has done for us all. The problem with law is that it is rather aggressive and I do get a bit carried away
I love a good reasonable debate
It could have been the case that a new law or two had been missed by me and discussions like this help to bring them out if there were any
At the moment I have seen no reason to change the advice I give to ensure those towing trailers remain legal