Nutritional analysis - soil or grass or both?

[PurBee]

this is fascinating. I have a sensitive barefoot gelding and similar issues. He shows hind gut inflammatory issues, main symptom is stuffy, and swings right hind out wide (rather than tracking straight with it), 5 days of equishure (protected antiacid so gets to hindgut) and tracks straight again.

I have recently come to the opinion mycotoxins, moulds are as big if not a bigger issue for him than sugar changes.

Though I most recently, had been assuming that dodgy bits in his haylage bales are one of the causes of his flares.

He has good quality, meadow haylage, in large bales (it is provided as part of our livery) analysis is pretty good. But I think you do get the odd dodgy bit included in big bales of anything when unexpected things were sucked into the bales.

I thought the odd mouldy / smellier bit in haylage in inevitable? Especially when keep it mostly covered from rain.

I had niavely assumed moving to really good hay would be loads better for his gut, and loads lower for the mould risk.

Interesting, and food for thought.

(This post is about moulds affecting horse health, a slight derail from op’s original topic, but still nutritionally based)

There’s always a chance of some dodgy bits in haylage if there’s anything foreign pulled in while baling.
If baled at the right moisture level and pressed dense and wrapped thickly enough to exclude oxygen, it should ferment well and not grow moulds. Yeasts (white sections) are the most common growths within haylage, but even theyre not that common in well-made haylage.
Those white yeasts are usually harmless, but i wouldnt feed any that had the white yeast running through the whole bale. They tend to grow in GM italian tetraploid ryegrass haylages, from what ive come across.

Hay bales are exposed to air and moisture while stored - even if baled 15% and below moisture, during storage the outside of the bale will get damp and grow mould in most northern climates, as our air moisture level is average 50%+ (80% here in ireland most days!)
A 15kg bale soon became 12kg when i had pulled off all the mouldy external hay.

Wrapped hay is becoming more popular and definitely will help hugely with keeping it fresh and mould free IF it has been baled and cured, THEN wrapped. There’s always moisture within hay stems of fresh baled hay, and that is the ‘curing process’ of hay, to allow the bale to release that inner moisture.

I’ve baled hay at a crispy-feeling 10% moisture when baled, only to return the next morning and retest the moisture of the bales to have climbed to 18-25% moisture. With stacking and breathing the moisture rises out of the stack and the bales cure - during dry weather. If the weather is damp the bales wont release that moisture so readily.

If i wrap my 10% fresh baled hay in plastic, it’ll continue to release moisture from the central stems of the hay and the moisture will climb. Thats why many wrapped hays have that sweaty damp sock smell when unwrapped. Some farmers even call damp hay haylage, as old skool knowledge is good hay needs curing/breathing - that wont happen wrapped in plastic.
But its neither haylage nor fresh wrapped hay at 18-25% moisture wrapped in plastic - its slowly sweating and growing all manner of moulds, that then germinate to produce the more talked about in equine circles: mycotoxins.
I’ve bought this sweaty wrapped hay and the whole load ended up on the compost heap.

The great thing about haylage when properly made is that the high moisture level causes fermentation with the sugars, and THAT causes the PH to drop to more acidic PH levels. Moulds spores DIE in acidic environments, thus rendering them incapable of germinating and producing mycotoxins.
It’s an old wives trick to repel mould to use vinegar. (Although haylage doesnt get as acidic as vinegar!) Once the sugars are fully fermented and there’s no more to ferment, the PH rises.
If haylage is made too wet at 55+% moisture - there’s a risk that’ll remain vinegary smelling and acidic. Some haylage smells vinegary and is very wet, that’s not good.

I’ve grown mushrooms, and the substrate of straw or grain has to be pressure boiled to kill mould spores, before inoculating with preferred mushroom species, otherwise the inherent mould spores in the air will compete with the mushroom spores and mould the entire growth block. There’s mould spores in the air everywhere, outside and inside. They are looking for moisture and warmth to germinate their disease-causing mycotoxins. A hay bale is the perfect medium for spores to germinate.
Even if not visually seen, there’s an appreciable count of spores in any hay bale exposed to air in the uk/ire climates.

Some farmers here use proprionic acid to bale with - spraying the hay with a mist of the acid during baling, to prevent mould development. But that is an acid -and will cause the forage to be more acidic to feed.

I’ve gone to many lengths to keep hay fresh, even covering with a damp proof membrane we roof houses with so the stack can still breathe moisture OUT but not absorb damp air moisture IN, then stack tyres for airflow space, then cover with a thick tarp, the whole lot protected in a barn. Those efforts were best, ONLY if the hay im wrapping has cured/breathed/rested and settled at 15% or lower moisture. Only then did that hay smell as glorious as the day i made it!
(My hay making abilities are limited as deer graze my land all year round and severely impact my grazing/hay growth - i could make all the hay i needed off my land if all the deer were fenced out with 10’s of thousands of pounds of 7foot fencing!)

Haylage, like hay, is an artform to make well. There’s a specific methodology behind haylage and getting it fermenting well. Its so much more than just cutting, tedding once and baling then wrapping. Good hay needs tedding more than 1 day, and allowing to cure, then protecting from damp air while stacked.

If great hay cant be found and haylage is impossible to get, the next best thing is using a powerful steamer and kill the spores in hay before feeding. It’s high electrical/energy cost, time cost and 1 bale at a time, only practical for those with time/electricity at the yard/1-2horses.

Haylage compared to hay offers an extremely low to none mould spore count, therefore no germinated mycotoxins, and thankfully these days is offered as various grasses rather than just 100% ryegrass.
Finding it well made is the hard part. Named companies tend to do better than farmer X advertising locally.

Financially, buying average hay, pulling off mould, steaming and soaking it, costs more than a 10 quid 20kg bale of great made haylage delivered to my door.
I needed 2 hays bales to get 20kg of forage to then steam or soak = 4 quid per bale x 2 = 8 quid + fuel/time to collect it + time faffing around with pulling off mould and steaming / soaking = 1hr that i could have spent earning 40quid, instead of faffing about dealing with crap musty hay.
Haylage forage I save 1 hour of time daily + fuel and time collecting hay, and no longer breathe in mould spores myself getting sneezes and headaches, AND it solved my horses health issues!

Continued…

 

[PurBee]

Continued….


I could write a book about my forage journey….its been enlightening!

Wild horse grazing behaviour helped give me a clue that moulds need eradicating:

There are some types in these western irish valleys that dump their ponies on the vast empty boglands and forestry to over-winter.
There is nothing to eat in these sitka spruce plantation lonely places except carpets of moss, deadly ferns, willow and gorse bushes or tall fescue. Tall fescue grass was sown here generations ago by farmers pre-famine before these valleys became haunting expanses of nothingness.
Tall fescue yield is high, grows very long very quickly, very tall seed hay stems, and most importantly its root system is extremely tough, almost woody, when mature. Perfect grass for wetlands, it thrives in heavier soils. Perfect tough grass to graze heavier animals like cows and horses on. No wonder it was sown back then on these heavier lands.

I live in one of these valleys beside forestry and bogs, and the local dumped ponies one winter came down to fields beside mine. They come down when the weather turns very cold and wet. I never knew of their existence until then!
Long hooves, shabby looking, but covered, not dire-straits skin and bone condition, they all looked sound too - they arrived as a herd of around 8.
I observed them in the field thinking there’s lots of tall fescue ‘standing hay’ to eat, so thank god for them theyve got something to eat.
Yet i noticed the fescue wasnt being eaten. The deer don’t eat it either, preferring to eat holly and laurel in winter than the tonnes of standing hay everywhere.

Why was that? Why didnt any grazing wild animal eat the tall fescue hay in winter? Even my horses refused it in my fields but i thought that was because the grass was better and they also were being fed great quality haylage and not starving hungry.

The wild-roaming hungry herd nearby caused me to inspect it much closer and i saw tiny black dust sprinkled on the seed heads.
Mould.

The dumped horses were eating at ground level for any new sprigs of tiny green grass leaves while surrounded by tonnes of mouldy hay. Absolutely refusing to eat any of the hay.
If they were shut on a yard and were given nothing but that quality hay, they’d HAVE to eat it.
They were surviving on sprigs of grass, and the wild willow and gorse bushes.
They got thinner and i did take bales up to a sheltered place in the forest where i saw lots of their poops - it seemed like that was their sheltered hangout zone while up there. I didnt want to feed them close to mine as they’d cling to the field beside my horses, and i was wary of the stallion in their group who tried to get into my mare.
I made enquiries about them locally and later on a name was said who owned them. I kept an eye on their condition, and they did ok with my supplement during the worst weeks. They were ‘too good’ condition for charities to be concerned, and at that time i had no owner name to give them.
Suddenly they vanished early spring - likely for another breeding/foaling round that spring. There was a couple of growing foals with the group.

Despite being so hungry, even dams with foals, they didn’t eat the slightly mouldy standing hay, that didnt look too bad to human eyes at first glance.
That told me everything; if given CHOICE, moulds are truly not worth eating, for a horse, even if its really hungry and has the chance of some mouthfuls of sparse green grass to find, and bushes to eat.
Horses shut in a stable dont even have that luxury - they just have that net hanging in front of them and NOTHING else. No choice. So they eat it.

COPD, colic, gastritis, coughing, liver disease, mucous discharge, laminitis symptoms, abscesses can all be caused by mould exposure and mycotoxins. More symptoms too, but these are the common overt symptoms we see on average with many many horses, our own included.
For mine, mould eradication by not allowing a strand of hay coming into this yard, solved so many issues…mainly gut and foot health.

I suspect horses exposed to breathing in moulds from musty hay experience headaches, which could be cause of behaviour changes, as i dont want to be doing anything highly physical with a thumping headache, let alone be mounted and carry weight and have to run and jump or whatever.
I suspect they get headaches as i daily got headaches from sniffing/inspecting hay. Also bloated gut ache.
I asked my OH to join me in my hay job just to see if he got affected and he got headaches sniffing it. I didnt tell him my symptoms, just asked him how he was half hour later.
We’re both not the headache types. Theyre usually rare. But daily for me when sniffing/handling hay. Ending completely when switching over to haylage.
Horses are sniffing their hay throughout eating it! Unfortunately there’s no way to know if they have a headache but behaviourally different perhaps and seeking out dark shelters/spaces.

Because forage in winter is a hefty % of their diet, if all those kilo’s they sniff and eat have mould dust clinging to it, their body is going to struggle.
Feeding linseed etc will give the coat a shine, no matter what the condition of hay they get. Having a shiny coat means theyre getting skin nutrition, not that they’re the paragon of health in every respect.

 

[SEL]

This is fascinating

My fields are long grass right now - phenomenal grass growth this year - but with mushrooms everywhere. I can't see obvious mould on the grass but it's the right conditions for it and the horses are certainly being picky.

Does feeding a toxin binder help at all?

 

[criso]

It made me think it could be why my tb who is very fussy will randomly reject a bale of hay in a batch which appears the same as the others.

 

[Fieldlife]

This is fascinating

My fields are long grass right now - phenomenal grass growth this year - but with mushrooms everywhere. I can't see obvious mould on the grass but it's the right conditions for it and the horses are certainly being picky.

Does feeding a toxin binder help at all?

I have lots of mushrooms too and fairly long grass. Am offering adlib hay and haylage and grass. Some of all but not excess of any being eaten currently.

 

[PurBee]

This is fascinating

My fields are long grass right now - phenomenal grass growth this year - but with mushrooms everywhere. I can't see obvious mould on the grass but it's the right conditions for it and the horses are certainly being picky.

Does feeding a toxin binder help at all?

Mycotoxin binders are effective and used clinically in humans with success. The animal market research is more minimal, but both human and animals are exposed to the same environmental mycotoxins, so the human research is very useful.
There are now more equine focused myco binders on the market in recent years.

The old fashioned binders for any toxins for human or animal always used to be to feed charcoal and clay, and these still are used medically today as studies show their efficacy.

Here’s a useful article about binders and what types are best for which mycotoxin:

How to Select the Right Binder for Mycotoxins | MosaicDX

Want to know how to pick the right binder for a mycotoxin revealed in an OAT or MycoTOX Profile? Learn about the 8 main binders for mycotoxins today.

mosaicdx.com

Cholestyramine i can attest to being very helpful and efficient if there is a case of extreme toxicity, with liver and kidney failure. Full dose IV non-stop (or fed very regularly) is required for the patient to have a chance to clear the toxins. Even after improvement the cholestyramine needs continuing, despite the initial improvement, as there will be more toxins in the system circulating that need clearing.

There’s a table reference on that link that’s a useful quick guide. I’ll post it below.
Aspergillus is a major one horses are exposed to via hays, listed as OTA on the table - as you can see most binders work for that.
Aflatoxins from old growth in fields have been confirmed by a member on here who had her fields extensively tested by a reputable lab after they all got liver disease.

Because my climate is particularly damp most year round mould growth on standing hay occurs very early, sometimes from late september. But in other climates drier uk climates (south /south east) that likely occurs much later. Check year-long rested fields closely and graze the standing hay before visual mould.

Aflatoxins cannot be seen visually at all and need lab testing. The member who i mention above said there was no visual mould in her fields.
Symptoms of horses after being grazed on standing hay fields in winter need close monitoring. Gut and slight behavioural changes could likely be initial indication of ingestion of mycotoxins. Feeding a binder alongside mild mycotox. symptoms helps their system.
If there’s more severe symptoms like very listless energy, sunburn noses, tender feet - its best to pull them off the field, and get a binder into them afterwards to help clear the system.
Probiotics help for aflatoxins.

The cheapest myco binder regimen to feed would be charcoal and clay with a bowl feed, and give regular probiotics, if the winter hay feed is dusty/mouldy. That regimen will pick-up aflatoxins and OTA - the most common a horse is exposed to.

 

[Fieldlife]

Because forage in winter is a hefty % of their diet, if all those kilo’s they sniff and eat have mould dust clinging to it, their body is going to struggle.
Feeding linseed etc will give the coat a shine, no matter what the condition of hay they get. Having a shiny coat means theyre getting skin nutrition, not that they’re the paragon of health in every respect.

Fascinating, thank you for sharing.

I will maybe stop feeling guilty about feeding mainly haylage. My livery arrangement includes access to shared large bale haylage, meadow haylage, from a named contractor with a good reputation, that shares the analysis each year.

I'd read about the increased acidity of haylage having a negative impact on hind gut, and assumed feeding hay would be better for my horse.

Maybe not, from what you have found. Damp is pretty pervasive here too at this time of year.

 

[PurBee]

Fascinating, thank you for sharing.

I will maybe stop feeling guilty about feeding mainly haylage. My livery arrangement includes access to shared large bale haylage, meadow haylage, from a named contractor with a good reputation, that shares the analysis each year.

I'd read about the increased acidity of haylage having a negative impact on hind gut, and assumed feeding hay would be better for my horse.

Maybe not, from what you have found. Damp is pretty pervasive here too at this time of year.

Your haylage sounds good, especially if they are a maker who get analysis to share - thats really good.

Some very wet vinegary smelling haylages potentially could be more acidic. The medium moist haylages smell sweeter likely to be higher PH:

“Acidity (pH) - haylage​

The pH indicates the extent to which the haylage is acidified. Wrapping forage in foil in combination with moist will cause the process of conservation to start and to stop the process of fermentation. Therefore, pH is also related to dry matter. A higher dry matter content in the forage will have a higher pH. During the process of conservation, acids will be formed to make the bales stable in order for the fermentation processes to stop. When the bales reach an average pH of <5.2, the bales are well conserved.”

Acidity (pH) - haylage

The pH indicates the extent to which the haylage is acidified. Wrapping forage in foil in combination with moist will cause the process of conservation to start and to stop the process of fermentation. Therefore, pH is also related to dry matter. A higher dry matter content in the forage will have a

www.eurofins-agro.com

The PH of acid in a horses stomach is much more acidic than hay or haylage - it requires the acid of the stomach to break down nutritional bonds. The small intestine is still acidic but less so than the stomach, for further breakdown. The large intestine is generally close to ph6-7.
If an acidic feed is fed, its likely not more acidic than the stomach acid. The calcium buffering system is what is responsible for adjusting ph in the body.
Both hay and haylage usually on average contain good amounts of calcium, supporting the buffering system functioning.

 

[Fieldlife]

Mycotoxin binders are effective and used clinically in humans with success. The animal market research is more minimal, but both human and animals are exposed to the same environmental mycotoxins, so the human research is very useful.
There are now more equine focused myco binders on the market in recent years.

The old fashioned binders for any toxins for human or animal always used to be to feed charcoal and clay, and these still are used medically today as studies show their efficacy.

Here’s a useful article about binders and what types are best for which mycotoxin:

How to Select the Right Binder for Mycotoxins | MosaicDX

Want to know how to pick the right binder for a mycotoxin revealed in an OAT or MycoTOX Profile? Learn about the 8 main binders for mycotoxins today.

mosaicdx.com

Cholestyramine i can attest to being very helpful and efficient if there is a case of extreme toxicity, with liver and kidney failure. Full dose IV non-stop (or fed very regularly) is required for the patient to have a chance to clear the toxins. Even after improvement the cholestyramine needs continuing, despite the initial improvement, as there will be more toxins in the system circulating that need clearing.

There’s a table reference on that link that’s a useful quick guide. I’ll post it below.
Aspergillus is a major one horses are exposed to via hays, listed as OTA on the table - as you can see most binders work for that.
Aflatoxins from old growth in fields have been confirmed by a member on here who had her fields extensively tested by a reputable lab after they all got liver disease.

Because my climate is particularly damp most year round mould growth on standing hay occurs very early, sometimes from late september. But in other climates drier uk climates (south /south east) that likely occurs much later. Check year-long rested fields closely and graze the standing hay before visual mould.

Aflatoxins cannot be seen visually at all and need lab testing. The member who i mention above said there was no visual mould in her fields.
Symptoms of horses after being grazed on standing hay fields in winter need close monitoring. Gut and slight behavioural changes could likely be initial indication of ingestion of mycotoxins. Feeding a binder alongside mild mycotox. symptoms helps their system.
If there’s more severe symptoms like very listless energy, sunburn noses, tender feet - its best to pull them off the field, and get a binder into them afterwards to help clear the system.
Probiotics help for aflatoxins.

The cheapest myco binder regimen to feed would be charcoal and clay with a bowl feed, and give regular probiotics, if the winter hay feed is dusty/mouldy. That regimen will pick-up aflatoxins and OTA - the most common a horse is exposed to.

View attachment 150138

Interesting, does grazing around all the rotting fallen leaves make things worse?

Do you feed mycosorb A / commercial mycotoxin binder to your horse?

Is there any guidance for feeding charcoal and activated clays to horses? Mine definitely is impacted by gut inflammatory episodes I cannot explain. It would be fairly cheap to test.

When you mention probiotics, is that unprotected, and likely to be killed by stomach acid, or the protected yeasts such as Actisaf that are in Gut Balancers such as Protexin? https://phileoequine.com/our-products/actisaf

 

[PurBee]

Interesting, does grazing around all the rotting fallen leaves make things worse?

Do you feed mycosorb A / commercial mycotoxin binder to your horse?

Is there any guidance for feeding charcoal and activated clays to horses? Mine definitely is impacted by gut inflammatory episodes I cannot explain. It would be fairly cheap to test.

When you mention probiotics, is that unprotected, and likely to be killed by stomach acid, or the protected yeasts such as Actisaf that are in Gut Balancers such as Protexin? https://phileoequine.com/our-products/actisaf

Leaf litter is a potential issue for exposure to leaf rotting moulds in closely grazed short fields. It depends on the density of leaf drop, as very dense areas tend to inhibit grass growth and usually avoided by grazers.
Not overly grazed fields, horses will graze the grass tips growing through the leaves, and clear areas between the leaves.
Mine have plenty of acres and i notice the belt of denser leaf drop by the trees are left completely, while they focus on grazing the clearer middle parts of the fields.
Theyre not overstocked, with 2 of them on 6 circulating acres.

With smaller fields with lots of leaf litter that really need using for grazing in winter, the leaf litter could be leaf blown, collected up, composted, then re-spread as fertiliser for the field the next year.
Backpack blowers are vastly more powerful than handheld leaf blowers and make quick work of blowing an acre.
Ive done it when i needed material for my composting multi-bin station, or if for any reason i needed to confine them in 1 field for a while at the time of year when leaf drop is heavy, i’ll blow the leaves more toward the tree belt if the wind has scattered it all over the entire field.
Mine tend to poop around the tree belt layer so they generally dont graze where they poop and where leaf drop is heaviest.

I no longer feed any mycosorb products regularly since switching to all haylage and keeping the fields topped of old growth.
They regularly get probiotics thats auto-mixed in most balancer supplements.
I have clay, charcoal aswell as cholestyramine to hand for any of us, animal and human, that might get some out of the blue acute exposure.
We had a batch of peanut butter years ago that has aflatoxins as me and OH were so incredibly ill.
Clay and charcoal are the main ones i use immediately for any toxicity health event in any mammal.

One year a mixed meadow grass fairly damp heavy haylage had lots of buttercups in it which impacted the horses, with the gelding worse. One days feed promoted extreme hives in him, and gut symptoms and feet in the mare. (Interesting they both had different symptoms present from the SAME toxin source)
I zoomed the charcoal and clay into them, quickly relieving the massive hives in him.
Buttercup is only made non-toxic by drying it, hence why its safe in hay. In haylage its still damp and therefore toxic. Mixed meadow haylage needs careful checking for buttercup. The toxin causes mucous membrane inflammation, i.e the entire gut wall inflames and the immune system goes crazy.
The particular batch i had was completely loaded every handful had buttercup in it. It is hard to see initially, but looks like thin blackish strands amid all the grass when damp in haylage.
This was from a very good previously used supplier, so my trust was naturally given, i’d used their timothy/rye mix exceptional haylage, and thought i’d try their meadow stock. They rectified it immediately replacing the whole pallet so kudos to them, but still worrying that as horse people themselves, they didnt consider the wet buttercup in their meadow haylage would still be toxic.
My mare showed typical signs of an ems horse who has just come down with lami and i could have blamed the ‘seasonal grass spike’ IF there hadn’t been the gelding to show severe acute toxicity, and the change in haylage 24hrs before. Many people would have assumed it was a high sugar haylage or a grass spike, and been on the sugar is evil merry-go-round.
I’m pretty certain at this point in my research journey much is attributed to being a sugar issue that is actually a toxicity or mycotoxicity issue as the true root cause.
Lami protocol coincidentally is the same protocol you’d use for mycotoxicity: it reduces a high spore count musty hay by soaking alone, and pulling a horse off a suspected sugar spiked field could equally have been a mycotoxic field.

There also is the massive subject of ‘herbivory plant protection toxins’ to consider, of which grasses are known to exihibit and secrete toxins due to over-grazing - but going into that now would derail this thread more than it already has been.
This is evidenced by those who cant even put their horses on a starvation paddock without ‘lami symptoms’ returning. If there barely any grass theres negligible sugar, but there’s plenty of herbivory plant protection toxins being released, as the grass IS a living thing too, and wants to live, and has ‘toxic defences’ just like any other living thing!
Fescues have been studied for this, but other species of grasses not so much. Im collating more info on this subject currently.

The clay and charcoal dosage ive used for horses is a heaped tablespoon at any 1 time per feed. I rehydrate the green bentonite clay before feeding.
1 heaped tablespoon hydrated to half a pint of water to produce a yogurty consistency.
They love the taste of it, its really mild.
I’ve had it just mixed with water and downed when ill with gut issues and its mild ‘earthy’ flavoured!

The only warning i would give with clay is NOT feeding it high dose dry as a powder.
Volumes like a handful per day as a dry powder to a horse who doesnt drink alot of water. The clay will pull moisture from the gut, so there’s a real risk of constipation. I always mix the clay with water before feeding, even days before, kept in a tub in the fridge, just to minimise any gut drying risk.
That risk is minimised with 1 tablespoon dose dry sprinkled in bowl feed, for a horse who we know drinks 30+ litres a day, as an emergency straight away dose, but subsequent regular dosing is best mixed with water first then added to the feed bowl mix….chaff or speedibeet.
A horse may well lick up hydrated clay on its own, they tend to like to lick clay soils.

Probiotics are varied in which ones survive the acidity of the stomach. Lactob., strepto. and bifidum. types are acid resistent, while other arent. The enteric coated ones are best used for a multi-blend species probiotic. Protexin i often use and find them effective.

 

[Marigold4]

Well, I have finally got the results back from Forageplus and they are completely ridiculous! "The grass analysis indicates very high levels of aluminium (2596 mg/kg) and iron (3411 mg/kg), along with other mineral imbalances, which could negatively impact your horse(s)’ health. Based on these results, we strongly recommend against allowing horses to graze on this pasture without addressing the underlying issues. The analyst suggested that the level of the imbalances suggestions some kind of farming activity such as chicken housing or even mining activity. "

I had my grass analysed in 2018, and aluminium was 11 and the iron was 78. Back in 2018 I asked the farmer who owns the land about the land and he said it had only been used as pasture. They said when they do soil analysis for their other fields next to mine, they test for PH,MG,K AND P. Not sure what these are apart from PH. Definitely no mining activity as we are on the Downs. No chicken housing. My horses have been on this field for 6 years now and are still alive and well.

Do you think I might have contaminated the grass sample with the scissors I used to cut it??? I seemed to have opened a can of worms!

 

[Fieldlife]

Well, I have finally got the results back from Forageplus and they are completely ridiculous! "The grass analysis indicates very high levels of aluminium (2596 mg/kg) and iron (3411 mg/kg), along with other mineral imbalances, which could negatively impact your horse(s)’ health. Based on these results, we strongly recommend against allowing horses to graze on this pasture without addressing the underlying issues. The analyst suggested that the level of the imbalances suggestions some kind of farming activity such as chicken housing or even mining activity. "

I had my grass analysed in 2018, and aluminium was 11 and the iron was 78. Back in 2018 I asked the farmer who owns the land about the land and he said it had only been used as pasture. They said when they do soil analysis for their other fields next to mine, they test for PH,MG,K AND P. Not sure what these are apart from PH. Definitely no mining activity as we are on the Downs. No chicken housing. My horses have been on this field for 6 years now and are still alive and well.

Do you think I might have contaminated the grass sample with the scissors I used to cut it??? I seemed to have opened a can of worms!

Did you not use stainless steel scissors, most are?

I think I would resubmit sample, definitely use stainless steel scissors.

My guess is you have contaminated it some how.

Did you cut fairly high to avoid dirt / soil / mud?

it is important grass you cut is clean and mud free.

I have had genuine off the scale / of the charts high iron and manganese results. I think this is possible not so sure about the aluminium thought, seems odd to me.

Can you call FP to discuss?

 

[Marigold4]

Did you not use stainless steel scissors, most are?

I think I would resubmit sample, definitely use stainless steel scissors.

My guess is you have contaminated it some how.

Did you cut fairly high to avoid dirt / soil / mud?

it is important grass you cut is clean and mud free.

I have had genuine off the scale / of the charts high iron and manganese results. I think this is possible not so sure about the aluminium thought, seems odd to me.

Can you call FP to discuss?

Yes, I think I had better but also suspect the sample is contaminated and its all been a complete waste of money.

 

[YourValentine]

I would call FP to discuss, but the sample appears to have been contaminated somewhere. I would challenge them, did they re run the unusual results to check for errors on their end? Soil labs keep a sample back to re-run incase of issues, not sure if they do the same (or can with plant matter).

Possible contamination from your end could have come from a rusty surface/car/bucket? Maybe dirty hands when sampling? Not sure where else it could have come from. I would be very surprised if a normal pair of scissors in good condition contaminated the samples, as we use normal scissors when sampling in field trials.

To get those levels of aluminium and iron in the plant matter you'd see signs in the soil condition - poor plant growth, red soil or red/red tinged runoff when wet or something.
Al can become highly mobile in soils but only at pH 4 or lower, and on the downs (chalk) your soil will be more inclined to alkaline (pH over 6.5)

The "PH, MG, K & P" the farmer tests for will be pH and Available Magnesium, Potassium and Phosphorus.

 

[criso]

If you had the grass analysed, can you do a direct comparison with the 2. Is it just aluminium that is different, how do the other levels compare?

 

[SEL]

Have your fields flooded at all? Flood water can wash out certain elements which can leave high levels of aluminium.

 

[Marigold4]

Have your fields flooded at all? Flood water can wash out certain elements which can leave high levels of aluminium.

No - no flooding ever. It's mysterious.

 

[Marigold4]

If you had the grass analysed, can you do a direct comparison with the 2. Is it just aluminium that is different, how do the other levels compare?

Everything is different when I compare the two. Also the narrative and graphs sent are incomprehensible to me, not being a nutrition expert. It's a pity they don't explain it at a level that a non-nutritionist horse owner can get anything from. I just feel I have wasted nearly £200 on this (I had grass and haylage analysed). I hoped to have a rational plan for how to supplement what I am feeding them but I am really none the wiser!

 

[criso]

When I had one done from FP, it was done by Sciantec and there was a graph with a number for each mineral so easy to see levels.

If it's very different to a previous analysis and there's been no changes, I'd be inclined to get back to them and ask about what could explain it.

 

[Marigold4]

When I had one done from FP, it was done by Sciantec and there was a graph with a number for each mineral so easy to see levels.

If it's very different to a previous analysis and there's been no changes, I'd be inclined to get back to them and ask about what could explain it.

I've talked through the haylage analysis with their nutritionist now. There was no key to the graphs so it was difficult to decipher what was the standard and what was my haylage numbers. The iron and aluminium grass analysis is a real mystery. My horses would be very ill if it really WAS as the analysis says. I have sent them the analysis done by Simple Systems in 2018, where these numbers were low. They are going to look into it but agree they have never seen anything like this before!