Ocd advice

[dgodin]

Hello everybody! I have two 3 year stallions and I want to start to train them. Before starting to train I did a complete vet checkup. The clinic exam was ok but Rx's of both of them showed OCD on the stifles. The bloodlines of the horses are completely different. Can anyone tell me if this OCD is really critical and can influence in theirs sport/breed careers.

 

[DollyDolls]

I would say that's really one to ask the vet who took the xrays.
It can differ so much depending on the exact location and the extent of it.
Good luck and keep us updated

 

[Rollin]

What breed are they? I will have to hunt for a link but I know there was an extensive study of OCD in Hanoverian horses conducted in Germany.

If I can find it I will post it for you.

 

[JanetGeorge]

If there are visible chips on the x-rays, you will need to have them removed before starting work or they WILL go lame - maybe a month into work - maybe 5 years! Or possibly 10 years when severe arthritis sets in.

In theory, you should geld them - because there is definitely a hereditary link. I had a lovely ID colt who SHOULD have made a stallion, but he was gelded before his OCD surgery (I wanted the cheap op. done first because - knowing MY luck - he'd have survived expensive OCD surgery and then had complications from castration and drop dead!!)

And - if you stand the stallions at stud later on - and tell mare owners they HAD OCD (which you should if you were being honest) it will damage their stud careers! Sadly, a lot of people buy potential stallions, x-ray them, operate, and THEN grade them! It's getting more common!

There is no doubt that management can cause OCD in horses who shouldn't get it - very fast growth rates due to excessive feeding probably the main cause (and of course fast growth rates are hereditary too!)

 

[Oscar]

I saw on Eurodressage recently an interesting KWPN study:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...stallions-bordeaux-and-bretton-woods-released

 

[ihatework]

I saw on Eurodressage recently an interesting KWPN study:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...stallions-bordeaux-and-bretton-woods-released

How very interesting. I'm not sure how good or reliable this information is at present (do you know where the full list is held?) but I definitely think this is a step in the right direction.

Many continental breeders seem to consider OCD 'acceptable' and 'normal'. And it's lovely to see a stud book starting to do something visible about highlighting this that hopefully in years to come may mean that we can breed out some of the inherited OCD traits. It will take time, but I think this is a positive move.

 

[showingmadfilly]

This is my experience but not one everyone has.... I have lost two horses to OCD and a third no doubts to come. All from the same bloodline, they look ok until around four and ridden then you notice. Standing with one leg always resting, shifting, shuffling rather then movement, appearing lazy behind and in my case many other things. Both that came here had been at supposed top dressage yards for schooling. The first went rake thin within a month and turned out he had ulcers which meant he was too far gone. The other went the same way extremely quick, summer she seemed okish, winter came and within three weeks she went from grade 2 lame to suddenly needing bone scans. They showed complete melt down of the hips, she too sadly died. The third is a home bred rather then one bought in and now at three I am seeing some very worrying signs.

Like I say this is just my experience and they did all come back to be extremely closely related. However... I do also know from vets loads of horses have it and it never effects them. Pot lucky really and bloodlines a huge part of it.

 

[micramadam]

How very interesting. I'm not sure how good or reliable this information is at present (do you know where the full list is held?) but I definitely think this is a step in the right direction.

Many continental breeders seem to consider OCD 'acceptable' and 'normal'. And it's lovely to see a stud book starting to do something visible about highlighting this that hopefully in years to come may mean that we can breed out some of the inherited OCD traits. It will take time, but I think this is a positive move.

I have to disagree with you. Breeders here DO NOT consider OCD as acceptable and normal. A lot I know will not use a stallion or a mare with OCD. For the last few years there as been a big push to make everyone more aware.

 

[ihatework]

We will have to agree to disagree.
Certainly there are responsible breeders, but there are also many irresponsible one's who are removing chips quietly and continuing to breed. So the more visible certain lines are to increasing hereditary OCD risk, and the more breeders avoid those lines the better the long term outcome for sport horse breeding.

 

[JandP]

We will have to agree to disagree.
Certainly there are responsible breeders, but there are also many irresponsible one's who are removing chips quietly and continuing to breed. So the more visible certain lines are to increasing hereditary OCD risk, and the more breeders avoid those lines the better the long term outcome for sport horse breeding.

Agree with this. OCD is endemic in both the warmblood and thoroughbred population. Most people don't know it in this country, because no one admits to having the chips removed. The big TB operations have their own xray machines and routinely xray all their youngsters and get their chips removed.

You will always find someone who has had a bad experience, but TBH it is SO common, there are a lot of horses that have had their chips removed and go on to have no problems.

To the OP - personally, I wouldn't breed from these horses, as there does appear to be a genetic link, and do you really want to contribute to a problem. I wouldn't also get them operated on before you continue work, as a low grade pain issue while starting a youngster is the quickest way to make yourself a big problem!

 

[eventrider23]

Depending on where the OCD is found there are different opinions and possible outcomes. I know OCD's found in the stifles are a huge warning sign where my vets are concerned and especially from a breeding pov they should not be bred from. I know a lot of the continentals are happy to remove chips and then grade though and this is worrying imo as ok some might be simply caused by injury but people should know of their existence. There are a few well known stallions on the circuit with openly publicised OCD's and this hasn't stopped them being of the top % in the world as sires however the difference is people use them knowing they have them. Recently a client was offered a 3 yr old colt from the continent....well bred would be an understatement as he is the full brother of one of the top dressage stallions around...the catch? He had recently had a very small chip removed.....but in their words (breeder) all was now cleaned up and he would easily grade. Out of interest we had the original X rays sent to our vet to peruse (before and after chip removal) just to have a look at where it was and her reaction was that it was the BIGGEST fetlock chip she's seen in year and do not touch it with a bargepole. Now they were up front about it however our thought is....if that is what they consider small....what is a large chip? And if a small (though in reality large) chip is perfectly gradable...that is worrying. Even the cleaned up post op X rays showed a large crater where the chip was removed.....

Personally especially with chips in your colt's stifles, I say geld them. Sorry.

 

[christine48]

I saw on Eurodressage recently an interesting KWPN study:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...stallions-bordeaux-and-bretton-woods-released

I think I saw that too. Interestingly jan Greve who owns Watermill stud in Holland basically said a lot of good competition & breeding stallions had had surgery for OCD. He said why write off a good horse because of bone chips. They seem to have a different view over on the continent.

 

[eventrider23]

I think the KWPN have it right...they have their OC index and so horses with chips can pass but it is recorded. That way, people can make a fully informed decision on whether to use the stallion or not, warts and all.

 

[dgodin]

How long does the recovery after surgery takes??

 

[Alec Swan]

I saw on Eurodressage recently an interesting KWPN study:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...stallions-bordeaux-and-bretton-woods-released

How very interesting. I'm not sure how good or reliable this information is at present (do you know where the full list is held?) but I definitely think this is a step in the right direction.

.......

ihatework, I too have my doubts. Researched figures and the implied marking or scoring systems, are all so often irrelevant and unreliable. The Kennel Club have a Breeding Coefficient system which is supposed to be viewed as an indicator for the line breeding of dogs. I cannot see any real use for breeding charts or scorings which are based on theoretical risk.

Oscar, I've drawn a passage from your offering, below, and am a little confused as to the very close marking for the two horses in question, with one apparently being acceptable, whilst the other isn't. It may well be that I'm being dim, but could you (or anyone for that matter) explain the relevance of the figures to me?

"Bretton Woods has an OC-index of 96, with a reliability of 63%. This can be considered a clear indication towards heritability of OC. Bordeaux has an OC-index of 101, 64% reliability, which means he neither improves the status nor burdens his offspring with heritable OC."

As others have said, growth rates are as certain a precursor to OCD as any other influence, and with our modern day promotion of young stock to having them backed and "doing-something", or sold, and our apparent refusal to wait and allow them to grow at their own rate, we are surely exacerbating the problem. All that we need to do is to look at the foals, yearlings and those older youngsters which are put through the Futurities to see that they are being promoted and fed, and all so many of them are heading for trouble. We see youngsters within the racing industry, predominantly flat bred youngsters which as two year olds are popping out of their skins, and no matter how careful or clever the person prepping the youngster, the risk is always there.

I also feel that if we rely upon the charts, the stats and theorised figures of the KWPN, or anyone else for that matter, then we will make little progress.

Heritable diseases in animals are brought about by mankind, and there are no quick-fix answers. Were we to geld every single stallion, or refuse to licence every single mare who had been operated on as a youngster, then we'd end up with a gene pool which is so diminished that the evidence of OCD would again raise its head through inbreeding. Better to accept that the disease is, as others have said, endemic, and rear our youngsters accordingly.

Alec.

 

[JanetGeorge]

The hereditability aspect is actually unproven. There is NO doubt that BIG horses - and horses with fast growth rates - are more likely to get OCD. Size and growth rates are of course hereditary! So to THAT point it's hereditary but the only way to avoid it would be to only breed little horses who grow slow!

I have had 1 'proven' case of OCD - in a 2 year - and 2 suspect cases (caught early that settled down and showed no more symptoms.) ALL were associated with 'excess' feeding - the 2 suspect cases were foals about 5 months old whose ancient Mums needed extra feeding. With hindsight, I should have weaned the foals early - because extra food late in lactation meant a boost in milk production - and growth spurts in the foals! On my experience, growth 'spurts' at a young age are the most likely cause.

 

[eventrider23]

I also agree with JanetGeorge. I had my first personal experience of OCD in one of my own last year in my now yearling. She was a MASSIVE foal and mum had enough milk to feed a herd alone and so she did incredibly well. Not only that but mum put everything into her and when she dropped weight when foal was only 3 months old I deemed it too early to wean and so put mum on some small hard feeds. Sadly I feel in her case this was the cause as again all seemed to go through mum to her and she came up with a fat hock. She was immediately weaned onto box rest however kept growing and X rays later showed a chip. She had the subsequent surgery and box rest and has not looked back. Would I breed from her? Yes I think I would as I know the root cause of the disease in her and would do my utmost to prevent it re-occuring in her foal and that would likely be a foal for me to keep anyway if it was from her. Would I keep a stallion of my own at stud with it?? Not so sure - it would entirely depend on where the OCD was. If the stifles definitely not as in all reports this is the area found to have most knock on effects long term as well as the most hereditary instances. Elsewhere? Maybe if myself and the vets were confident or its parameters. However I would ensure that the stallion was marketed accordingly so people could make educated decisions...although of course this in itself will have inherent issues as people may steer away if proven to have OCD.

 

[dgodin]

What about the recovery of the surgery?

 

[JanetGeorge]

What about the recovery of the surgery?

I had two done - one was hock and one was stifle - both made an excellent recovery and are still 100% sound 5-6 years later. Obviously result depends on how severe the problem is, how well it is treated, aftercare, and a good dash of luck!

 

[Oscar]

Oscar, I've drawn a passage from your offering, below, and am a little confused as to the very close marking for the two horses in question, with one apparently being acceptable, whilst the other isn't. It may well be that I'm being dim, but could you (or anyone for that matter) explain the relevance of the figures to me?

"Bretton Woods has an OC-index of 96, with a reliability of 63%. This can be considered a clear indication towards heritability of OC. Bordeaux has an OC-index of 101, 64% reliability, which means he neither improves the status nor burdens his offspring with heritable OC."



Alec.

Alec, this is not my research but if you refer back to the article it explains how the %'s work:

The KWPN randomly select foals and has them x-rayed at the age of 11-14 months. The OC-index has a medium of 100. A score below 100 indicates that x-rayed foals have displayed OC-findings, whereas a score above 100 means that less or no findings have been documented. Each index comes with a reliability percentage, only published when that figure is above 55%.
The KWPN society normally refuses to licence stallions with a severe OC-remark, except when they show exceptional talent and potential.
Recent additions to the OC-index are the 2007 born stallions Bordeaux (by United x Gribaldi) and Bretton Woods (by Johnson x De Niro x Romancier). According to the KWPN society Bordeaux has an OC-remark, class C, on his right hind leg hock. However when vetted for the Swedish warmblood society the bay stallion was found to be clear. Bretton Woods has a class C remark on right hind leg hock and stifle.
Bretton Woods has an OC-index of 96, with a reliability of 63%. This can be considered a clear indication towards heritability of OC. Bordeaux has an OC-index of 101, 64% reliability, which means he neither improves the status nor burdens his offspring with heritable OC.

 

[eventrider23]

What about the recovery of the surgery?

My filly had hers in the winter. After the box rest and walking she was turned out and of course she is only 15 months old but she has so far not looked back. Her growth seems to have at long last slowed a bit and so she has levelled out a bit now and is sound as a pound. That said in her case she was never unsound in the slightest not even after surgery. Fingers crossed long may it continue!