Odd one: Munchausen's by Proxy in relation to horses?

[Flicker]

Has anyone had any experience they can share?
My friend has lost two seemingly healthy horses within a short time. Her YM is quite controlling. Actually, very controlling. I can't go into too much detail on here, but I can't shake a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that something doesn't quite sit right. Could just be very bad luck though.
I wondered if anyone else had experienced anything like this and whether they would be happy to share their experiences. PM if you are not comfortable doing so in an open forum.
Thanks.

 

[blitznbobs]

FYI munchausen by proxy is now known as 'Child abuse'... as for the horses if in doubt move them...

 

[poiuytrewq]

What was her reason for having her horses pts?
There are circumstances in which horses can appear completely healthy, could it be they had something and the owner decided to pts before they suffered?
My last horse probably seemed fine to the outsider but I knew he was suffering and that It was only going to get worse so I had him pts before he became unhappy and in too much pain- this would have been too late.
I'd say this poor owner needs support at having lost 2 horses which must be devastating rather than people commenting and judging her?

 

[Bertolie]

Are you thinking that the 'controlling' YO may have had some influence in having your friends seemingly healthy horses pts?

 

[Polos Mum]

I know plenty of people who have "lame" horses that nobody (including a string of vets) can find anything wrong with - these seem to be people who are afraid/don't want to ride and are very happy for the horse to be lame to give them a reason not to ride.
They don't have them pts though.

Horses can have incredibly bad luck, but if you're/ your friend is concerned just move yards.

 

[Bertolie]

Have pm'd you

 

[cptrayes]

FYI munchausen by proxy is now known as 'Child abuse'... as for the horses if in doubt move them...

Where do you get that information from?

My understanding is that munchausens by proxy can relate to damaging any other person or animal in order to gain attention for oneself, and is a recognized but very rare psychiatric disease.

OP, I've known plenty of people who have clearly been getting some kind of psychological benefit from having a sick horse, but none who have actually caused the horse to be sick deliberately.

but if there is the slightest doubt, I hope your friend has already moved if she still owns a horse.

 

[blitznbobs]

From child protection courses ... It is not an illness it's abuse - just as paedophilia is not an illness it's abuse... It is a term that is not used by the medical profession in this country.

Dr blitz

 

[glamourpuss]

Yes, I believe a form of Münchausen syndrome by proxy can occur in the animal/owner world. It does appear to be very different to how it is in the child/carer situation (where it comes about as a craving for the support/attention having an ill child gives)
With horses it appears to give the owner a justification for not riding/being unable to get a decent performance/moving on/PTS a succession of horses.
I've witnessed on a yard a woman who's horse was always under the care of the vet for 'something'. She had diagnosed the horse as being EPSM after reading on the internet. The horse supposedly had COPD but I can hand on heart say I never saw/heard anything that would make me suspect that. Eventually the horses 'problems' became the reason that it was difficult to ride....so horse was given away.
Next horse soon developed a mystery lameness/ discomfort. Despite good vet care she claimed it was never comfortable & so was difficult to ride. It was PTS.
Next horse lasted under 6 months until it became difficult to ride. This was due to kissing spines. It was PTS.
Horse quickly replaced. New horse started having problems being ridden very quickly. I believe both hind suspensors were found to be the cause. Horse PTS.
Now has a new horse. I believe it isn't currently isn't ridden as it's under investigation for ulcers.
The time scale I'm talking about for the above is about 4 years so either
A) the person in question is VERY unlucky
B) The person in question needs to have a good long look at their management & riding.
C) There is something other 'going on'

 

[Patterdale]

Yes. It's rife amongst horsey women.

 

[FabioandFreddy]

It is possible that they are that unlucky, if thats the case i'd be very upset that people were insinuating i was getting some kind of sick thrill from the attention the ill/injured horse brought them.

Since January we've had to have the vet out a ridiculous amount of times - initially for Fab's cellulitis (vet has been out on about 10 seperate occassions since January for this varying from normal call out to administering IV antibiotics and just when we thought it was sorted, it blew up again on Monday so vets been back out), Raz in between this was hopping lame with suspected abcess but fine next day, had to have Flamazine for bad mud fever and vet seen him also on Monday for cough that had worsened and been diagnosed with RAO so on treatment for that. All in the space of 6 weeks! Sometimes these things happen no matter how well you manage.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Not really enough information here to judge this specific case but I would be looking out for things like vet changing all the time. In my experience of something similar (though I don't believe the woman ever deliberately caused harm to the horse), horse being seen by multiple vets, physios and farriers stood out. Horse has been rehomed and is absolutely great.

 

[pip6]

I knew woman who okay horse had bad guts (IMHO should have been pts years before it suffered agonising death), horse was under every supplement known. Woman was failed trainee nurse, & seemed to have to 'prove' her medical knowledge in what she was putting into horse. Also convenient excuse not to have to ride (only kept it imho to come down smoke & drink coffee with other scared non-riders gossiping about others). Wierd thing was, when it did peg it, she went out & bought youngster (which ended up too scared to ride as well), & her initial reaction on bringing it back was to put it on all the rediculous supplements that the other one was on. I mean why? Was nothing wrong with it. It was like she couldn't handle having a 'healthy' animal.

 

[Polos Mum]

I think there is a big difference between people being embarissed to confess that they just want a large dog to look after and pet (ie those who's horses are always ill with something invisable to the naked eye) and someone who would actually cause harm to their animal/ child (which is my understanding of munchausens)

The former I suspect we could all think of someone who would fit the bill that we've met over the years - but honestly they rarely do much harm (other than making your ears ache listerning to constent rubbish about XYZ problems)
The latter I'd hope isn't that common and the OP seemed to suggest the YO had actually done something physical to the horses - which I really hope isn;t the case.

 

[Booboos]

From child protection courses ... It is not an illness it's abuse - just as paedophilia is not an illness it's abuse... It is a term that is not used by the medical profession in this country.

Dr blitz

Sorry but they taught you complete rubbish.

The condition is recognised both in the DSM-5 (2013) and in the ICD-10 and is a perfectly well documented condition although difficult to distinguish from genuine illnesses and abuse. The only thing is that it is now generally called "Factitious disorder imposed on self" and "Factitious disorder imposed on others". As a recognised psychiatric illness the perpetrator would be entitled to medical treatment and could rely on the diagnosis as a defence - unlike 'straight forward' cases of child abuse.

 

[ester]

I don't think that stops it also being a cause of child abuse though booboos. (I suspect blitzandbobs knows all this anyway as iirc she is a doctor).

OP I think it depends whether it is suspected any foul play has been going on/unnecessary procedures.

 

[hayinamanger]

I have known 2 women with this problem, both from the same profession, both very believable, can't go into it on here, but one was a livery I had some years ago. Lovely healthy horse, O had many serious issues about the horse's health. She rang me in hysterics late one night and said the horse was crippled, 10/10 lame and the vet was coming to pts first thing. I drove to my yard, horse happily munching hay in stable, got horse out, sound as a pound.

 

[Marydoll]

Where do you get that information from?

My understanding is that munchausens by proxy can relate to damaging any other person or animal in order to gain attention for oneself, and is a recognized but very rare psychiatric disease.

OP, I've known plenty of people who have clearly been getting some kind of psychological benefit from having a sick horse, but none who have actually caused the horse to be sick deliberately.

but if there is the slightest doubt, I hope your friend has already moved if she still owns a horse.

I would say this is a more accurate description of MBP, and it doesnt always Involve children, vulnerable adults can also be the victim of MBP, therefore it is inaccurate to dismiss it as child abuse.
I have worked with medical professionals ( consultants) who refer to MBP so again to say its a term not used in this country is inaccurate

 

[Marydoll]

I have known 2 women with this problem, both from the same profession, both very believable, can't go into it on here, but one was a livery I had some years ago. Lovely healthy horse, O had many serious issues about the horse's health. She rang me in hysterics late one night and said the horse was crippled, 10/10 lame and the vet was coming to pts first thing. I drove to my yard, horse happily munching hay in stable, got horse out, sound as a pound.

Not quite the same, a person with true MBP would have intentionally lamed the horse for the attention they would get from family, fellow liveries, vets etc

 

[Marydoll]

While no one would deny the effects of MBP are abuse, the cause is in many cases linked to some deep rooted issue for the perpetrator
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Fabricated-or-induced-illness/Pages/Causes.aspx

 

[exracehorse]

I think there is a big difference between people being embarissed to confess that they just want a large dog to look after and pet (ie those who's horses are always ill with something invisable to the naked eye) and someone who would actually cause harm to their animal/ child (which is my understanding of munchausens)

The former I suspect we could all think of someone who would fit the bill that we've met over the years - but honestly they rarely do much harm (other than making your ears ache listerning to constent rubbish about XYZ problems)
The latter I'd hope isn't that common and the OP seemed to suggest the YO had actually done something physical to the horses - which I really hope isn;t the case.

Agree with this. Yes, in theroy, a wierdo sicko might enjoy the attention from other liveries/vets if their horse is Injured or poorly I.e a slash to the leg with a Stanley knife and hey presto attention all round. If mother's can do it to their children, then yes I am sure such a horse owner could abuse their horse. I knew of another livery who was convinced her child was ill and that the pony had various ailments. She never actually physically done anything or fed the pony arsenic but she was as mad as a box of frogs

 

[Wagtail]

I know plenty of people, myself included who have a string of bad luck relating to horses. I had ten years when almost nothing went wrong and then starting 4 years ago lost 3 horses in 4 years. But all were genuine illness/injury. I also think there are plenty of people who are hypochondriac by proxy! When a horse shows behavioural problems I always suspect a physical cause before a psychological one unless there is obvious behavioural mistakes being made by owners.

But I have never known or suspected anyone to purposely inflict damage on a horse to make it ill which is what the OP is referring to I believe.

 

[Blurr]

From a quick google it looks like they changed the name to more properly put the emphasis on the abuse of the child or other individual who is made to suffer or said to be suffering by the person with the condition.

I've never met anyone who's deliberately harmed their horse for attention seeking purposes (though harmed carelessly due to being an idiot/uncaring/easily led is rife) but I've certainly met some who imagine their horse to be ill in order not to feel compelled to ride it. To properly fit with the syndrome, they'd have to be saying it was ill (or making it ill) in order to gain attention for themselves. Getting out of riding is not the same as getting attention, unless people are constantly commiserating over that. But if they invent illnesses (or cause it) and revel in the sympathy they recieve, that would fit, I think.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I actually believe there was someone on a previous yard suffering this. I'd like to think that she simply could not comprehend the link between her management and her horses eventually needing to be PTS. In under a year that I liveried with her she had one PTS, and should have done the same to another imo.

She had 3, a small pony (the one PTS was replaced very quickly), and 2 larger horses. Lucky if they got 2 hours out in a field a day, and they were never ridden. Always a reason – her ‘youngster’ is still 4 years old 3 years later from what I have heard.

She’s close to loosing double figures to lami – lots of cries of ‘why is this happening to me?’. One of her bigger horses was the saddest thing I have ever witnessed and so many people say better a day too early than a day too late, but this just confirmed that sentiment to me.

Seemed to be fine, and even ridden a bit in the early days. Went downhill after the first small pony was PTS. The last I saw, was on 3 legs due to lami, and those weren't good... but his pedal bone actually did come through his sole on one front – I hasten to add he was not PTS despite all the vets advice. However, whilst on box rest…4 nets of haylege, 4 feeds a day, youngstock mix being one of the ingredients, hand picked grass, treats etc… She was asked to PTS or leave in the end. She left.

 

[Flicker]

Thank you to those of you who have replied. As I said, it would not be right to go into too many details on here. I am very interested to hear your thoughts and suggestions of signs to watch out for though.
It is a horrible thing to accuse someone of and I am fully aware of the sensitivities involved. However, animals in our care are vulnerable and it is important that we do right by them.
Not a nice dilemma to be in.
Thanks!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

yup.
cant name but know of someone who seems to be forever inventing mysterious and rarely properly explained problems with her horses.

never gets the vet, always thinks she knows better than vets so would rather have them on some half arsed home conconcted rememedy and when people lose patience in mulling over one problem with her, she invents another.

no doubt her horses do have some small niggling behavioural probelms (nothing that growing some balls and actually riding properly them wouldnt solve IMO) but everything she has, ends up PTS (except one, who is too much of a bone headed block to pay her any heed and just carts her around regardless of her total inability to sit one side of him and seems immune to her wittering and problem inventing).

she keeps taking on highly bred and highly strung horses to *rehabilitate*, failing them badly due to being hopeless and pig headed, and then shooting them.

greeeeeeeeeeeeeat

 

[cobgoblin]

I think there have been quite a few cases of MBP regarding animals.Perpetrators of MBP actively harm their victims either by injury or poisoning etc. They KNOW they are doing it and often make elaborate plans to that end. Not the same as someone who is neurotic about their horses health or even a hypochondriac by proxy.

 

[HeresHoping]

I'm no psychologist but I'm pretty sure we have experienced something approximate. Young girl (18) was horribly over horsed and horse probably had a few physical issues.
A suitable 'sensible' replacement pony was found and she purchased it. It was sold as a 14 year old, although we thought probably nearer 20, given the state of its teeth. First few rides it napped badly at the gate, had her off and took off home. She stopped hacking and would ride only in the school. Occasionally. Pony expanding rapidly at this stage and we all started to suggest she watched it because lami was on the cards. Pony spent the summer lying down. 'Lami' suggestions escalated to shouts but still she wouldn't listen.

Pony then went lame and reported as very sluggish (well, was the size of a house at this stage). She had numerous vets out. Every time she didn't like what she heard, there was another opinion. That poor pony was biopsied and poked and prodded for 9 months because he wasn't responding to treatment. We later found out she hadn't actually been giving the pony any of the treatments prescribed. Pony was stabled and it became a slippery slope. Vet out every week for something different. Lami improved and she was told to exercise him. Get on and start walking. She didn't like that, so called another vet. Pony got very stiff standing in the stable all day. She then stood him out in the winter turnout with no rug and no hay and called the vet out because he was not pooing very much. Vet said get exercising. She rode him and said he felt odd. Well, he'd been stuck in for 9 months, of course he was going to be stiff. No. Not a good reason. Call another vet. She was offered a grass paddock at the yard to keep horse moving on vet's advice but declined. He was eventually PTS because he was declared riddled with arthritis. Of course she was then the centre of attention which I think is what she craved all along.

It's very sad.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I've never come across anyone who as deliberately harmed their horse in order to gain attention but I know many whose management causes or perpetuates illnesses from which they appear to enjoy the ensuing drama.
More dippy as opposed to evil.

Vet mentioned the other day how many horses he gets repeatedly called to see that are fine and just need blooming riding, not nursing.

I do remember a livery though, years ago. She was a complicated personality with some dark issues. I felt very uneasy about having her around and felt that if one of my horses became ill, I would have thorough checks done.
It was all very weird but I said nothing to anyone until, after an outburst directed at absolutely everyone on the large yard- she left. Talking to some other liveries, it turned out that we all felt the same but the idea was too bizarre to mention. It was very chilling.

 

[RockinRudolph]

I was once on a yard with a girl I suspected suffered from this. All she talked about was vet treatments her horses had had and all these illnesses and injuries (horses looked perfectly healthy to everyone else). Her vets eventually got suspicious of her themselves and contacted the RSPCA who intervened. The general consensus was that she was causing harm to them in order to get attention from vets.