Odd one: Munchausen's by Proxy in relation to horses?

[Buddy'sMum]

OP, I've known plenty of people who have clearly been getting some kind of psychological benefit from having a sick horse, but none who have actually caused the horse to be sick deliberately.

^me too^

Had a livery once who lied to the vet treating her horse for choke. The horse was on the mend and starting to eat and drink but livery insisted it wasn't, told the vet it hadn't eaten or drunk for days, and demanded the vet tube it, which caused no end of distress.
Stupid, stupid woman also thought it was a good idea to feed a horse with choke sugar cubes and Mars bars!! :-(

 

[Birker2020]

Has anyone had any experience they can share?
My friend has lost two seemingly healthy horses within a short time. Her YM is quite controlling. Actually, very controlling. I can't go into too much detail on here, but I can't shake a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that something doesn't quite sit right. Could just be very bad luck though.
I wondered if anyone else had experienced anything like this and whether they would be happy to share their experiences. PM if you are not comfortable doing so in an open forum.
Thanks.

As a single horse owner, I lost four horses in under 6 3/4 years, one after the other after the other after the other. Its one of those things. Mine were in respect of a lacerated fetlock joint, a broken tibia, a heart attack and wobblers syndrome. One horse was five, one was ten, one 11, and another one was 14. They were all much loved horses and in good heatlh at the time of their accident/illness. Two were on the same yard the other two different yards. Its just bad luck I'm afraid, pure rotten nasty bad luck.

 

[connieconvert]

This is such an interesting, thought provoking thread. Well done Flicker for starting it.

Having worked with horses all my life (so far) as head groom and later yard supervisor. I recognise many of the traits you mention in clients on livery yards.
I am remembering several females who I just thought of as demanding at the time because I was too busy with the horses to realise they were 'odd' owners.

I shall follow with interest.

 

[LittleBlackMule]

Years ago there was an odd character living in my neighbourhood (she's long dead now) who had an elderly horse kept on a bit of scrub land. It was pretty moth-eaten and neglected but never bad enough to cause much concern, but if anyone ever stopped to talk to her she would tell them she was out showjumping with it every weekend and winning huge amounts of money, even though it was obvious she hadn't ridden for a long time, if ever, and the same went for the horse.

After a while she must have realised that her stories of competing weren't being believed, so she escalated to claiming that people had vendettas against her and were harming the horse. She collared me in passing once and told me that people were jealous that she had managed to get a horse that was so much better quality than theirs (she was never able to name anyone), and that as a result they were coming into the field every night and injuring it.
Initially this was dismissed as harmless rantings, until a local horse owner had a bit of a snoop around one day and discovered that it actually had nails driven into it and various other injuries.
It was a very rural and close-nit community, and everyone knew everyone elses' business, so if someone else had been responsible the truth would have been found out fairly soon, but there was only one suspect - the owner.
Various authorities were called in but couldn't do much as there was no proof, and this just fed the owner's paranoid delusions. The injuries started to increase, until one night the horse was 'stolen', the only way the local horse community could keep it safe from it's owner. She never realised what had actually happened, and the horse received far better care where it ended up.

 

[Blurr]

That is a scary story LBM.

 

[YorksG]

The name of Munchaussen by proxy has been changed, to reflect the fact that rather than it being a treatable illness it is instead a collection of behaviours and personality traits, these are only "treatable" if and when the person with them wishes to change their behaviours, they will then need a lot of support and help to change. These people can be very dangerous, they will ususally cause harm to an individual in their care, paradoxically, to gain kudos for being such a good carer, to be seen as a rescuer, or a brave care giver. The situation in the OP sounds more like a different type of personality disorder where the perpetrator causes harm to someone/thing which someone else holds dear, to cause harm to the person who holds that person/thing dear (sometimes seen as old fashioned spite)
Not a doctor, but an Approved Mental Health Professional under the Mental Health ACt 1983

 

[thewonderhorse]

I actually believe there was someone on a previous yard suffering this. I'd like to think that she simply could not comprehend the link between her management and her horses eventually needing to be PTS. In under a year that I liveried with her she had one PTS, and should have done the same to another imo.

She had 3, a small pony (the one PTS was replaced very quickly), and 2 larger horses. Lucky if they got 2 hours out in a field a day, and they were never ridden. Always a reason – her ‘youngster’ is still 4 years old 3 years later from what I have heard.

She’s close to loosing double figures to lami – lots of cries of ‘why is this happening to me?’. One of her bigger horses was the saddest thing I have ever witnessed and so many people say better a day too early than a day too late, but this just confirmed that sentiment to me.

Seemed to be fine, and even ridden a bit in the early days. Went downhill after the first small pony was PTS. The last I saw, was on 3 legs due to lami, and those weren't good... but his pedal bone actually did come through his sole on one front – I hasten to add he was not PTS despite all the vets advice. However, whilst on box rest…4 nets of haylege, 4 feeds a day, youngstock mix being one of the ingredients, hand picked grass, treats etc… She was asked to PTS or leave in the end. She left.

That actually brought tears to my eyes. Did anyone report her for cruelty?

 

[skint1]

I've been accused of something like this with my daughter's horse and it really hurts so all I would say is that be very careful that you are in possession of all of the facts before you start bandying this type of accusation around. Things are not always as straightforward as "lame" and "sound" but of course I am not the expert, that's what I pay my professionals for.

eta I suppose I should clarify, my daughter's horse had a bad back,, I got a vet who advised me to stop his ridden work, he had been playing up and my daughter had lost confidence, but the sharer had not and wanted to continue to ride a horse who flinched when you ran a hand down his back, I was accused of inventing the injury to justify stopping the sharer from riding because my daughter was jealous of the special bond the horse and sharer enjoyed, a bond hitherto only seen in pre-teen pony fiction books.

 

[Equi]

I know plenty of people who have "lame" horses that nobody (including a string of vets) can find anything wrong with - these seem to be people who are afraid/don't want to ride and are very happy for the horse to be lame to give them a reason not to ride.
They don't have them pts though.

Horses can have incredibly bad luck, but if you're/ your friend is concerned just move yards.

I was accused of this by many people, including the horses owner and a top vet. I was so relieved when finally someone else agreed with me and I got his back looked at by a chiro and poof he was not lame anymore.

I think I am still a little unconfident and if I think he hobbles in the slightest I get off and start the whole process again.

 

[Wundahorse]

Where do you get that information from?

My understanding is that munchausens by proxy can relate to damaging any other person or animal in order to gain attention for oneself, and is a recognized but very rare psychiatric disease.

OP, I've known plenty of people who have clearly been getting some kind of psychological benefit from having a sick horse, but none who have actually caused the horse to be sick deliberately.

but if there is the slightest doubt, I hope your friend has already moved if she still owns a horse.

Agree with this post. I have experience of mainly women who present their children with various physical problems,some very serious,only for the conditions to improve with medical attention in hospital.Occasionally i have seen it manifest through animals,usually companion animals.Guess it could apply to horses too but not seen any related cases in my career.
The poster provides no evidence to support the query though so cannot comment on her friends case.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's a serious thing to accuse someone of .
And very different to people who have horses and don't want to ride them or are over cautious and 'imagine ' that every minor blip means the horse ulcers, cushings etc etc however for everyone with let's call it hypochondria by proxy there will an owner with a horse where the health professional can find nothing wrong with where eventually it turns out the owner was right.
However I would need something more concrete than loosing two horses in quick succession been there ,done that , got the tee shirt , I once lost two horses in less than six months to different eye issues perhaps OP might think that was suspicious.

 

[Wagtail]

The other thing to consider is that the YO will lose income when a horse is PTS and so I would be more inclined to believe that it would be in their best interests that horses are as healthy and long lived as possible.

In the time I have run my livery (ten years) I have had two liveries PTS. Both times I have refunded the owners any livery they had paid up front. So can be up to a month's livery. Whereas I actually ask for a month's notice when a horse leaves, I just cannot bear to do that in the case of a death. So you have to ask what this YO stands to gain for the death of a horse in her care?

 

[Flicker]

It's a serious thing to accuse someone of .
And very different to people who have horses and don't want to ride them or are over cautious and 'imagine ' that every minor blip means the horse ulcers, cushings etc etc however for everyone with let's call it hypochondria by proxy there will an owner with a horse where the health professional can find nothing wrong with where eventually it turns out the owner was right.
However I would need something more concrete than loosing two horses in quick succession been there ,done that , got the tee shirt , I once lost two horses in less than six months to different eye issues perhaps OP might think that was suspicious.

Which is why I have gone on here to ask people what their views are and if anyone has had any experience and what to look out for. As you will see from my previous posts on this thread, I am fully aware of the implications of suspecting someone of deliberately hurting an animal for attention.

You will also see that I have chosen not to go into great detail in this thread because I am aware of the sensitivities involved.

I absolutely accept that losing a number of horses in quick succession is really horrible, tragic bad luck and can happen to the most caring and dedicated owner.

However, we also have a duty of care and I would have thought that it would be irresponsible of me to not seek the views of my colleagues in the equestrian community if I felt that something might not be quite right.

I am not making accusations. I am seeking more information. There may be warning signs to look out for or common 'themes' in behaviour that others who may have experienced something like this could help to point out.

 

[blitznbobs]

Sorry but they taught you complete rubbish.

The condition is recognised both in the DSM-5 (2013) and in the ICD-10 and is a perfectly well documented condition although difficult to distinguish from genuine illnesses and abuse. The only thing is that it is now generally called "Factitious disorder imposed on self" and "Factitious disorder imposed on others". As a recognised psychiatric illness the perpetrator would be entitled to medical treatment and could rely on the diagnosis as a defence - unlike 'straight forward' cases of child abuse.

That is outdated in this country - it is a personality disorder not an illness - but go ahead keep legitimising this behaviour...

Ps psychopathy has a icd 10 code but is equally not an illness...

From Nhs website

Fabricated or induced illness (FII) is a rare form of child abuse. It occurs when someone who is caring for a child, usually the child’s biological mother, fakes or deliberately causes symptoms of illness in the child.
FII is also known as Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Munchausen's syndrome is a condition where a person pretends to be ill or causes illness or injury to themselves.
However, healthcare professionals in the UK prefer to use the term fabricated or induced illness because the term Munchausen's syndrome by proxy places the emphasis on the person carrying out the abuse, rather than the child who is the victim.
The term Munchausen syndrome by proxy is still widely used in other countries.
There has been some controversy in the media regarding FII, with some commentators suggesting it is not a real phenomenon. But there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that the condition does exist. The evidence of abuse includes hundreds of case files from more than 20 different countries, the confessions of mothers and other carers, the testimony of children and secret video footage.

 

[Marydoll]

That is outdated in this country - it is a personality disorder not an illness - but go ahead keep legitimising this behaviour...

Ps psychopathy has a icd 10 code but is equally not an illness...

From Nhs website

Fabricated or induced illness (FII) is a rare form of child abuse. It occurs when someone who is caring for a child, usually the child’s biological mother, fakes or deliberately causes symptoms of illness in the child.
FII is also known as Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Munchausen's syndrome is a condition where a person pretends to be ill or causes illness or injury to themselves.
However, healthcare professionals in the UK prefer to use the term fabricated or induced illness because the term Munchausen's syndrome by proxy places the emphasis on the person carrying out the abuse, rather than the child who is the victim.
The term Munchausen syndrome by proxy is still widely used in other countries.
There has been some controversy in the media regarding FII, with some commentators suggesting it is not a real phenomenon. But there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that the condition does exist. The evidence of abuse includes hundreds of case files from more than 20 different countries, the confessions of mothers and other carers, the testimony of children and secret video footage.

Do you not agree that it is a mental Health issue ?? Surely that is a legitimate disorder, however distasteful you might find it to be

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Yep. A tiny, anorexic and quite frankly neurotic lady I once knew bought herself an ex racer that was very sweet natured and chilled out. Not quite out of her league but the combination of the two had potential. The lady, being anorexic, often felt the cold even in the height of summer, and of course she hardly ever ate. Through the summer the horse was often stabled 24/7 and rugged, and the feeds were sparse as was the hay as the owner didn't want the horse to be 'hyped up'. Of course the horse became hyped up with no turnout and it started lo rapidly lose weight. Within four months the poor horse lost half it's body weight and was a nervous wreck, a mirror of it's owner.

Happy ending however....myself and a friend managed to persuade the owner the horse wasn't for her, she sold her on to a lovely home where the horse still is today.

 

[blitznbobs]

It's as legitimate as paedophilia, sociopathic personality disorder etc etc but it is NOT a mental illness - it is a choice made by a sane person with urges ... Just as someone who is attracted to young children can choose not to abuse so can a person with the urge to harm their children in other ways can choose not to do it ... I guess it's the old debate about bad vs mad...

 

[littleshetland]

What a morbidly fascinating thread - very sad and very alarming, but TBH, with the way some people behave, nothing would surprise me.

 

[Marydoll]

It's as legitimate as paedophilia, sociopathic personality disorder etc etc but it is NOT a mental illness - it is a choice made by a sane person with urges ... Just as someone who is attracted to young children can choose not to abuse so can a person with the urge to harm their children in other ways can choose not to do it ... I guess it's the old debate about bad vs mad...

Looks like the jury's still out on the debate, your right the debate goes on http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/180/2/110.full

 

[dieseldog]

I think the term has 2 meanings now in the non medical world - deliberately hurting something or making up problems to seek attention. I think in the horse world the second is more common and that the internet has made it a lot worse as you can get your fix so much easier - it would better if there was a virtual horse to go with the virtual hugs!

 

[pippixox]

i don't feel qualified to comment on the details of the condition, but although this thread is very interesting i think it has shown no actual examples of true FII. all the examples have been tragic examples of owners thinking they are doing the right things when actually they were really wrong and harming their horses but they received negative attention for it, not positive praise for looking after a sick horse.

as far as i was aware, this FII condition is actually incredibly clever and often well planned, making it very disturbing. for example, an owner would appear to be treating a laminitic pony with amazing care, but still 'struggling' to keep it well, despite regular vet visits and using correct methods of care, but they would actually be secretly slipping it high sugar meals to keep it sick. so they would receive the praise from other people on being so lovely and working so hard to keep their poor pony well. (if i am wrong more knowledgeable people are welcome to tell me!)

 

[glamourpuss]

Pippixox you are right that would be the best example of FI in a horse but I stand by what I say that there is a type of it which can be seen in the horse world.
Whilst they aren't actually damaging the animal they are fabricating/over exaggerating illness or injury in their horse.

 

[cptrayes]

That is outdated in this country - it is a personality disorder not an illness - but go ahead keep legitimising this behaviour...
Ps psychopathy has a icd 10 code but is equally not an illness...

From Nhs website

Fabricated or induced illness (FII) is a rare form of child abuse. It occurs when someone who is caring for a child, usually the child’s biological mother, fakes or deliberately causes symptoms of illness in the child.
FII is also known as Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Munchausen's syndrome is a condition where a person pretends to be ill or causes illness or injury to themselves.
However, healthcare professionals in the UK prefer to use the term fabricated or induced illness because the term Munchausen's syndrome by proxy places the emphasis on the person carrying out the abuse, rather than the child who is the victim.
The term Munchausen syndrome by proxy is still widely used in other countries.
There has been some controversy in the media regarding FII, with some commentators suggesting it is not a real phenomenon. But there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that the condition does exist. The evidence of abuse includes hundreds of case files from more than 20 different countries, the confessions of mothers and other carers, the testimony of children and secret video footage.

No-one is legitimizing it. But your own post shows that it is a condition which exists and which is called different names in different countries.