Oh, and you will be self employed

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Yardbird

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Is what my friend was told when she went to see about a job that she had seen advertised. In the advert the hours were fixed, and at interview she was told the rate they would pay. So no holiday pay, no job security, have to sort out own tax and insurance.It was at an up market livery yard in a good area. Is this even legal , and how do employers get away with it?
 
d I would have thought that a freelance would set their own pay rate? The yard has liveries and needs someone to do the regular hours that they advertised for, so not an as and when position.
 
that's appalling , no i can't see that that's correct at all, especially as they are advertising a job and stating the hours, god who would want to work for people like that, imagine how little respect they must have for others
 
No, if she's self employed she sets her hours and her rate of pay. They either employ her properly or take the risk that she won't always be available
 
They have chosen to do this to avoid any normal employers responsibility, and really I am posting this on here to find out how normal this is, and how to stop it if it is indeed illegal. She is unlikely to even get the job, but it will probably be given to a young person, and when they get tired and disallusioned and leave, be replaced asap with another.The advert was not for a frelance, it sounded like a job.
 
I know somebody sort of doing the same, yard has set her hours and her pay but told her she's self employed. She hasn't declaired herself as self employed and hasn't paid tax for over 3 yrs now.
 
Yardbird said:
So if it is not legal, how are empoyers getting away with it, and how can this be stopped.
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Advise the HMRC, they will be looking at back payments for revenue unpaid to date!
The only route for a part time self employed groom is to have one or more clients, use own kit, and pay own insurances, the hours would not be regular, the work would not be advertised as a job.
Where regular attendance is required and hours are agreed and are regular this is a job: the employer has to accept it, pay insurances, taxes and all the rest of it.
 
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thatsmygirl said:
I know somebody sort of doing the same, yard has set her hours and her pay but told her she's self employed. She hasn't declaired herself as self employed and hasn't paid tax for over 3 yrs now.
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So what will happen when she reaches retirement age, or is sick, or needs benefits?
 
And how many people are employed on this basis, but can not report it as it will rock the boat and they fear being jobless.
 
thatsmygirl said:
I know somebody sort of doing the same, yard has set her hours and her pay but told her she's self employed. She hasn't declaired herself as self employed and hasn't paid tax for over 3 yrs now.
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Yard is liable for all back payments of National Insurance and tax. There is no way out, your friend should be aware that she is not contributing to her own pension, sounds as though employer may not be insured.

Friend is not self employed but should not be claiming benefits without declaring income, some people who are on benefits do it in order to keep their benefits, in this case the "employee" and the "employer" are both defrauding the government, the penalties are severe.

Once you have a NI insurance number Big Brother is watching you.
 
Yardbird said:
And how many people are employed on this basis, but can not report it as it will rock the boat and they fear being jobless.
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They need not fear joblessness, the horses still need looking after.
Not every school leaver will take a job like this, they may even, innocently mention it to someone who will report it.
Their parents will be aware that any employee has a payslip.
As I say, I suspect those who do this are generally those who are on benefit and who are "colluding" to commit fraud, but fraud it is. They will be asked to re pay all benefits immediately or face prosecution.
 
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Yardbird said:
So what will happen when she reaches retirement age, or is sick, or needs benefits?
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God only knows, people have tried talking to her but she won't listen. She has no hol so works everyday or lose money if she takes a day off. It's not right and at some point it will all come to light and who will get in trouble, her or her so called employer.
This sort of thing isn't right
 
thatsmygirl said:
God only knows, people have tried talking to her but she won't listen. She has no hol so works everyday or lose money if she takes a day off. It's not right and at some point it will all come to light and who will get in trouble, her or her so called employer.
This sort of thing isn't right
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The employer will be told to pay up straight away.
She will probably lose her insurance contributions, it depends on the solution. Why don't you report it :)
At some stage this will end and when she goes to jobcentre, the can of worms will be opened.
 
To be blunt, they do it because they get away with it.
It is illegal, but will only be picked up if someone is brave enough to challenge it. Challenge can be through HMRC (as others have said) as there is a high chance that neither party is paying the correct tax and NI contributions (and as of 2017, there will be pension auto-enrolment requirements to add to the list). In my experience, HMRC are more likely to find 'employment' in a working arrangement as detailed by OP. For HMRC to agree that it is self-employed, they would look for multiple customers of the service and for the person to be fully self sufficient (own equipment, some form of promotion of their services, invoice processes and annual accounts).
The other challenge can be through an employment tribunal, but this is very stressful for the individual to do. They are breaching the Working Time Directive (not providing holidays). To take them to ET and win, the person would need to evidence that they are an employee, but this should be relatively easy in this case. There are three tests of employment: mutuality of obligation (if they are obliged to provide the work and the worker is obliged to work them they would breach this test), Personal Service (unless she can send a replacement when she fancies time off, they would breach this test) and control (this can be breached through provision of uniform, or determining 'how' a task is carried out etc., if the provider of the work controls how the person works, then this test is breached).
A 'win' at ET would get them statutory holiday allowance, statutory sick pay and statutory maternity pay. As well as the built in protection of employment (i.e. redundancy and dismissal rights).
 
Provided this is a commercial livery yard and not a private yard this would come to light when the 'Up market livery yard' has an inspection by the Inland Revenue as the livery yard will claim that this member of staff is self-employed and not employed by them. However, as described above the Inland Revenue have strict criteria on who is self-employed and who is employed and they will determine that because the person concerned is using the livery yards equipment and is regularly employed at this yard that they are not self employed and will ask for a back payment of tax and national insurance to up to the last 12 years. They will also be fined.
 
Is it illegal? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like the sort of arrangement someone would have with a contractor. So, contractor is responsible for contributions, insurance etc. and the company employing the contractor sets out hours and pay rates in that contract.
 
I had a job like this many years ago. Several months after I'd left and moved away, I was paid a large sum in tax rebate and my stamp was paid, so obviously someone found out!
 
OWLIE185 said:
Provided this is a commercial livery yard and not a private yard this would come to light when the 'Up market livery yard' has an inspection by the Inland Revenue as the livery yard will claim that this member of staff is self-employed and not employed by them. However, as described above the Inland Revenue have strict criteria on who is self-employed and who is employed and they will determine that because the person concerned is using the livery yards equipment and is regularly employed at this yard that they are not self employed and will ask for a back payment of tax and national insurance to up to the last 12 years. They will also be fined.
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this
 
Beausmate said:
Is it illegal? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like the sort of arrangement someone would have with a contractor. So, contractor is responsible for contributions, insurance etc. and the company employing the contractor sets out hours and pay rates in that contract.
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It is illegal because they have not employed a contractor, they have not approached a contractor. They have advertised the position as a job and employed a member of the public who does not currently have a business set up.
 
Beausmate said:
Is it illegal? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like the sort of arrangement someone would have with a contractor. So, contractor is responsible for contributions, insurance etc. and the company employing the contractor sets out hours and pay rates in that contract.
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A conrtactor bids for a job , job by job, he has other clients, provides own kit and equipment, employs staff.
The contractee can't dictate the terms of employment of the contractors' employee. He can insist on some sort of minimum pay, but this is an agreement that is irrelevant to the contractor's legal obligation to his own staff.
 
Oh, so they did the 'here's a job, but by the way we're not 'employing' you...' sort of thing? A cash in hand, ask no questions and if you don't like it, the door's there sort of thing?

Dodgy, tax evading, exploitation sort of thing?

Tell them to stick it. I think there's a phone number to report that sort of thing, or at least there used to be. CAB would probably know.

Would this do? www.gov.uk/report-cash-in-hand-pay
 
Both my grooms are freelancers .
They do work for other people, they vary their hours and days to fit in with their other work and interests they both have their own horses so they work around them .
IME lots of people want to work like this with horses they don't want to tied to one yard being paid for 37 hours and working 57 , neither of them work "full time " hours
I needed some extra hours recently as one was away and the other did not want the hours so I employed a third freelancer I know .
But it does sound like this was what being advertised in this case.
 
You used to be able to report this type of thing to the Wages Inspectorate because they were often paying below minimum wage amongst other things. I do not know if the Wages Inspectorate still exists though.
 
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