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Weezy

Weezy

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Apparently to tell us about the unknown horse meat industry here in the UK. ATM...banging on about racehorses beng killed if they are surplus - Talking about Potters and them seeing horses that were *healthy* being shot
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Calling horses commodities and saying all the same old crap.
 
Why why why can they never have a balanced view?????? It makes me so angry that the media only ever seem to feature the bunny huggers. What do they think should happen to unwanted horses? Oh, I know - let's sell them for £1 a head to that nice farmer chap in Amersham...
 
The same old crap. Are you talking about the truth here?
I have been banging on for years that if the equine community does not clean up their act, PETA will do it for them.
Let's not call truth the crap. Let's do something about it. It isn't going to go away. Horses are a commondity in this country. If you don't believe it, how many times have people on this site "sold on", "sadly outgrown", sold "through no fault of his own" placed the responsibilty for their horse in some stranger's hands.
Please, let's not get all upset when people call a rat a rat. There is a rat in our system of keeping horses, selling them on, and putting them out of our minds. All of these horses were produced to fill the greed of humans. They didn't ask for this.
Don't blame the animal rights people when we can no longer keep horses.
Blame ourselves for not doing enough to stop things from getting so bad.
 
Sorry but I have my view and you have yours. According to Animal Aid even dangerous horses should not be PTS because it makes them a commodity - I do not agree with this. The footage from Potters that the shot showed what a great job they do, AND IT STOPS LIVE EXPORT - which is FAR more damaging for the horse.
 
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If you don't believe it, how many times have people on this site "sold on", "sadly outgrown", sold "through no fault of his own" placed the responsibilty for their horse in some stranger's hands.


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Have to agree with that one, someone i know (not horsey but very doggy) once asked me why people sell there horses all the time when (most) people keep a dog for life. I couldn't really answer! I know theres the case of change of circumstances etc, and understand professionals having to but.....?
 
Well, you could start with the racing industry, which produces a vast amount of 'waste' in the form of unwanted horses each year. However, we are where we are, and have to deal with things as they are now. Which means; it is kinder to put an unwanted horse to sleep than to sell it for meat, or at a market where its fate is unknown. It may be hard, but we are adults, and it is the responsibility of every animal lover (not sentimental fantasist) to make sure that when an animal leaves their care, its future wellbeing is assured. If that means having it pts, then that is a rational, compassionate and correct decision to make. Just like we humans would all like to die in our sleep at the ripe old age of 100, horses do not all meet a happy end dying peacefully of old age after a pain free retirement, and anyone who doesn't accept the responsibility of putting a horse to sleep has no right to call themsleves an animal lover.
 
Welshies- I've had the same question asked to me. Well, actually it was uttering more surprise at people selling horses, as they assumed they were kept to the end like dogs.
I can;t remember what i replied at the time, but while we may love our horses as a pet- a change in circumstances usually has a bigger impact due to the time, land and cost of keep demanded. when a horse is no longer suitable (for whatever reason), it often isn;t financially viable or welfare interests best to keep them. Plus, horses (should) live for a long time. If you bought a foal, how would you know what the next 20-30 years would hold? So, horses have to be sold.
This, of course, is the average horse owner- not the racehorse industry or high/elite competition horses.
 
So many sides to this argument, but have to agree with your logical answer! Just a shame that you cant guarantee the hands that the horse ends up in...
 
Oh God.
I agree with all of you. I am NOT saying that animals should not be euthanized...far from it! Please don't assume I agree with the fantasists as I don't. I am only saying that there are far too many horses in this world and not enough people who care about what happens to them.
I still don't know how we rationalize it. I've done it for years. You get a horse, train it, supposedly love it to death until something better comes along or your finances change? Is that the message? Would you do that to your dog? And what exactly is it that makes a horse different from your dog and cat that you "love" to death? I'm sorry, I don't see a differrence any more.
Why are dogs not "just for Christmas" but horses are as disposable as last weeks playstation?
Do horses feel pain? Do they starve? Do they miss the people that took care of them? Do they shiver when it is cold?
My God, people justified slavery for years. What makes us better than those that did that?
Sorry. I just can't and won't participate in showing, buying, selling...not any more.
 
I think the guys comment on the amount of horses bred unnecessarily was justifiable.

If I was to post in the dog-lounge on here that I was thinking of putting my average type dog in pup there would, and rightly so, be a lot of negative replies. However, I have seen many posts regarding people breeding from their mare and all the replies are generally positive and in favour. Perhaps it is time that people thought long and hard about producing foals just for the sake of it when there are so many useful animals out there needing homes
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But a dog doesnt cost £300 per month to keep? Would you rather people kept them!! That doesnt make sense. You really cant compare a horse to a cat or dog. I do understand where you are coming from, but really there is no comparisson...
 
Thank you Kibob!
I am thinking a lot of people need to go read Gulliver's Travels.
As a dog person I do know asolutely that the dog people have changed over the years. They have HAD to because of the pressure of outside groups like PETA. They have also been educated about animal needs.
A horse has feelings. It is alive. If you can't afford to pay £300.00 per month to feed one, why is it okay for you to sell it and go buy another one and feed it?
That just doesn't make sense at all! It costs me about oh say £1,000.00 a year to keep each of my dogs. They don't win little scraps of ribbons, their "job" is just to be. I don't go trading one off for another because it is a better size or can be bred or makes me feel big and important. Why is it okay to do to horses? Try that one on again.
I want us to discuss this, as I am going through a period where I find I don't want to even ride a horse any more if it means feeding this industry.
Give me a reason to keep doing it, cause I am running out of reasons.
I am asking this seriously, not to "have a go" at you.
 
A dog you buy with the purpose of having a pet to keep you company, a horse you buy to do a job. Realistically a horse's value can be anything up to hundreds of thousands of pounds whilst its capable of doing that job, and once its not capable it can be worth nothing. People sell while the horse is still doing a job to avoid losing those hundreds of thousands of pounds(or just thousands in most cases). Its also almost a certainty that as the horse gets older its unlikely to be insurable for much, to need more veterinary care and is not likely to continue doing the job the person wanted the horse for to begin with. If you PTS a horse just because its aging you're 1. Tight and 2. You get no money. Hence horse gets sold to get the chance of another job and so original owner gets money back. I'm not saying its right, just the way it is.
 
consumer society and horses don't sit together easily
people expect too much IMO and aren't prepared to make the sacrifices in too many instances
 
Oh, and Weezy about euthanasia? I am 58 years old and I would FAR rather be pts when I WANT to be than to die in my bed at 100. I know some people want to live that long, but I don't, and I want to have the right to choose. I have had many animals put down over the years. I cannot criticize what you are saying as you are young and have not spent years competing and showing and doing all the things we LOVE about equestrian sport. I have, so how can I tell you you shouldn't do it?

What I can say is if people don't stop turning a blind eye to the slaughter market PETA will put a spotlight on it and kill us off with their TRUTH. They may be stepping all over our rights by doing so, but it is truth even if they are misguided and never lived with a horse in their entire lives! Animals feel pain, horses more so than many other types of animal. Their skins are thin, their mouths are tender. They have the right to live without pain, just as you do, or your children do. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Believe me, those of you that hunt, I KNOW you think you have the right to do so. If it comes between being wounded and having days of pain, being trapped in a box and left until the RSPCA sees fit to go get it and shoot it, and being ripped apart by hounds, well I would feel the hounds do a better job.

But as you can see now, no matter how hard you try to justify it hunting HAS been banned. How long before horse riding is?

It won't be in my lifetime, but it will happen unless we change. There will be more kids on drugs, shooting each other, stabbing each other because the stables will all close down. More kids with nothing to do.

I want my great grandchildren to have horses. Do you?
 
Ah, but what when your great grandchildren outgrow their adorable shetland ponies? Will the ponies get left in a field to get bored and fat, or will they be sold on to a home where they can be loved by another child?

What happens if someone buys a horse that is too much for them? Do they insist on trying to ride the poor animal, possibly injuring themselves or the horse, or do they sell it to a more knowledgeable home?

I do feel sorry for horses that get sold on every two years or so, it seems to happen a lot more with competition ponies then with anything else, but really there is no way of avoiding it.

It's stupid to compare horses to dogs - Horses live more then twice as long, cost twenty times more, need far more looking after, and also you have excercise it at least a few times a week, and riding a horse that can't do what you want is VERY frustrating.
 
Breeding a foal- you will only "generate" 1/yr. With dogs each litter will be much greater than that 1 foal- therefore, need to consider dog breeding more carefully as has potential to make huge impact on dog population? Although, has a greater "dog loving" population (than horses) to absorb the pups.
Very difficult topic- too many horses? but how on earth do you limit breeding? make sure all breeding is more selective- improve breed, competition horses etc? but where does that leave the happy hackers, the kids ponies etc etc
 
My view is that my dogs are pets and my horses are my hobby - there's a difference. My horses are with me to do a job - if they can't do what I need them to do then I find them a more suitable home - for their benefit and mine. I've bought horses and I've sold horses. I absolutely don't believe that when I buy a horse I then owe that horse a home for the rest of its life. Why should I assume that my horses are always going to be better off with me than with someone else?

You may come across the odd horse who is so bonded to one person that they would never settle with anyone else but 99% of the time horses are happy with any human being as long as their basic needs are seen to - feed, water, turnout, contact with other equines. Yes you have a responsibility when selling a horse to sell it to a suitable home - in so far as you can. Of course once sold you can't control what happens to it subsequently but I refuse to feel guilty about that. Sorry if those people who see horses as 'pets' don't like my attitude but I think there's too much sentimentality in the horse world to the detriment of the welfare of the horse in general.
 

My comparison to dogs was purely reference to breeding and not ownership. I appreciate that horses are very expensive animals and it is impossible and often unfair to say we will give these animals a home for life. Thus I have no problem with useful/healthy horses being sold on to new homes. Likewise, I have no problem with older animals and problem/dangerous animals being euthanized, far kinder that way IMO.

It is a very difficult topic I agree. I believe the way forward is more selective breeding programmes for horses, but how on earth this could be managed/regulated I don't profess to know, wish I did
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Very good points.
Firstly, the pony issue. Until I moved to England I didn't even know ponies were good for anything, much less riding. I was shocked and amazed to see so many dong their jobs in their workman like manners and kids actually enjoying them!

Good on the people of the UK for having ponies that actually DO something other than escape, kick large horses to pieces and raid the feed room! As you can tell, my experiences with raising two boys and having ponies left a large impression on me...and in the case of ponies, not a good one lol! Instead of ponies (yes I sold the one's I so stupidly bought), I found that old horses were far more suitable mounts for my kids. Yep, it's farther to fall, (my son at the age of 34 insists that I let him fall off his horse at least 8 times in 2 days but I have no memory of that!) but the horses were easier for the kids to handle. So I don't know what the answer is about the ponies that are "sadly outgrown".

As to the person who buys an unsuitable mount...humm that's a hard one. Isn't it wisest to actually get to know what you are buying before you find out it is unsuitable? I know, people impulse buy. But maybe we should teach people to take experienced horse people with them before they plunk down their money? Maybe we need to be harder on those who sell horses that are unsuitable to newbies?

I see where you are coming from about comparing dogs to horses. It really doesn't work if you insist on looking at it financially. Once again, since I bred and showed my dogs for years it is something you have to come to slowly. Since I have done it, what right do I have to tell people not to. My only answer is that at some point I decided there were too many dogs in the world to keep making more. It indeed helped that I had a breed that no one in their "right" mind would buy to start with.

I can rail on for hours, but it does come down to money again and again. Perhaps my great grandchildren will see ponies in a zoo. I do know what PETA did to my home country by banning slaughter houses. I certainly don't want to see that happen here. As I said before who'd have thought hunting would be banned?

Okay, you've all put me in my place. Dogs aren't horses. What do we do to stop what happened yesterday from happening again? I can bully you all and be smug and say my horse is 6 and I will outlive him, but I have somewhere for him to go. That's one horse out of dozens I've owned that will be taken care of for "life". Now what do we do about the other millions out there?

Firstly I would like to make the suggestion that REAL HORSE PEOPLE be allowed to govern when a horse is in danger, NOT the RSPCA. We would not allow children to starve for three days while trying to make a decision as to wether or not they were at risk. What do you all say?
 
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As to the person who buys an unsuitable mount...humm that's a hard one. Isn't it wisest to actually get to know what you are buying before you find out it is unsuitable? I know, people impulse buy. But maybe we should teach people to take experienced horse people with them before they plunk down their money? Maybe we need to be harder on those who sell horses that are unsuitable to newbies?

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No matter how careful you are, things can go wrong. There is no fail safe way to know if a horse will be perfect for you long term.
 
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Oh God.
I agree with all of you. I am NOT saying that animals should not be euthanized...far from it! Please don't assume I agree with the fantasists as I don't. I am only saying that there are far too many horses in this world and not enough people who care about what happens to them.

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Fair enough.

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I still don't know how we rationalize it. I've done it for years. You get a horse, train it, supposedly love it to death until something better comes along or your finances change? Is that the message? Would you do that to your dog? And what exactly is it that makes a horse different from your dog and cat that you "love" to death? I'm sorry, I don't see a differrence any more.

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I don't have a problem with people selling horses- say they need a horse that is quieter. What are they suposed to do? Keep both? Not everyone can afford two horses. Same with a kid growing up- they might need a taller horse. You can't compare horses to dogs and cats- dogs are pets, where as horses are working animals. I'd much rather see someone sell a horse that no longer meets their needs rather than chuck it out if the paddock to look after itself.

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Why are dogs not "just for Christmas" but horses are as disposable as last weeks playstation?
Do horses feel pain? Do they starve? Do they miss the people that took care of them? Do they shiver when it is cold?
My God, people justified slavery for years. What makes us better than those that did that?
Sorry. I just can't and won't participate in showing, buying, selling...not any more.

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Well, that's your choice. You have to accept that people do have a valid reason for selling and it's not as always as clear cut as you're making it out to be.

Bottom line- horses are working animals, dogs and cats are pets.
 
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Thank you Kibob!
I am thinking a lot of people need to go read Gulliver's Travels.
As a dog person I do know asolutely that the dog people have changed over the years. They have HAD to because of the pressure of outside groups like PETA. They have also been educated about animal needs.
A horse has feelings. It is alive. If you can't afford to pay £300.00 per month to feed one, why is it okay for you to sell it and go buy another one and feed it?
That just doesn't make sense at all! It costs me about oh say £1,000.00 a year to keep each of my dogs. They don't win little scraps of ribbons, their "job" is just to be. I don't go trading one off for another because it is a better size or can be bred or makes me feel big and important. Why is it okay to do to horses? Try that one on again.
I want us to discuss this, as I am going through a period where I find I don't want to even ride a horse any more if it means feeding this industry.
Give me a reason to keep doing it, cause I am running out of reasons.
I am asking this seriously, not to "have a go" at you.

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Oh, god. I'm not even going to comment. You're a PETA fan- can you name one good thing that they've done for animal welfare?
 
i love my horse like a family member, far more then i could love a dog or cat... but he's special to me. i'm sure i'll love any other horses i get in the future just as much, but i don't think it is cruel to sell them, so long as they go to a good home.
 
Live stock - Dead Stock!!


See i have very very strong views on animal protestors and activists. I blame the activists for us having poor breeding in horses as horses become diffcult/expensive to dispose of. Abbatoirs do not advertise the fact they slaughter horses, so there fore we end up with alot of bad breeding in our animals as instead of being shot, they are put to stud!!

Now i also expect the reason these horses were going to market is because they were in a very poor condition in the first place.
To be honest if we had a good horse meat market, this prob would never have happenned as those horses would've been in the abbatoir a long time ago!!
 
My Child
Family means you Love and protect what ever God has created you have a friend who in their eyes you are their mother / father / carer etc... and sometimes you may feel you would like a porsche BUT maybe !!! you are not worthy of so much love that gods creation has granted you in this life, your friend loves you and would almost certainly miss you if he/she was to SELL YOU..... Please rethink the comment you have made and remember that you could some day have the situation were your friend could end up in unscruplious P***y hands.. Then how would you remember the good and umismissable times you have shared with your friend ?
 
OMG you guys think I am a PETA fan? GOD NO! I am saying we are fueling them with FACTS that they can use against us.

Look back. Did I not say I do not want what happened in America to happen here. I WANT the slaughter houses to stay open. A lot worse things can happen to a horse than to be dead! Dead is out of pain, out of sorrow, out of this pitiless world.

If you think I LIKE PETA then you are entirely wrong there. If you want to see what PETA has done to horses, please view the video of the Mexican slaugher houses. Since all the slaughter houses were closed in America, these horses are being shipped hundreds of miles to Mexico where they are slaughtered by repeated blows of a knife to the spine, then slung up on hooks while paralized and their throats are cut. They can't even move. This fact I lay directly at PETA's feet. If you would like to see the video of this process I can provide it to you. Just PM me and I will send the link.

For Pity sake, PLEASE understand that I am no fan of PETA, but what are we doing to make them go away?

St. Anthony, I agree with you so much. I also agree that far too many horses are produced that are not well bred. But why do we do it? Why do we continue to allow it in this country?

Mostly I want to rip the heart out of the RSPCA. Yesterday we made repeated attempts to help and were told we could help by adopting one of their horses that are ready to be placed. This would not seem ludicrous if we were not already a rescue center with horses of our own that need placement and more coming each week. Our founder is a qualified veterinary nurse specializing in rehabilitation. The RSPCA knew about this situation and did nothing...NOTHING! for months. Why are they deciding which horses need to be put to sleep when there are rescues that might actually have the time to rehab a horse correctly? We don't know anything about what occurred there and I am furious that non-horse people are supposed to protect these horses.
They haven't done much to protect the ones that were dead for weeks there now have they. Just look at some of the posts here on H and H...good people, GOOD people were trying to collect rugs and blankets and feed for these animals and were told no. Told NO send MONEY. How stupid do they think we are. Did you see the news last night with all the RSPCA officers, neat as a pin standing around doing NOTHING while the rescuers were covered in dirt and excrement and doing all the work? What a joke.
We need horse people in charge of horse welfare and we need to demand it. In this case I agree with you...horses are not cats and dogs and considering the RSPCA's record for euthanizing healthy animals day after bloody day how do we know how many horses that could have been rehabed are now dead and on their way to the compost heap. That's what hapens to their dead dogs.
The BHS or some other group like the ILPH should be put in charge of horses.
In case you never do, have you been to some of the hell holes we call auctions in this country, and if you have been, have you ever seen a humane officer there?
We have no voice and horses need a voice.
 
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