Oh I'm in love!

[Clodagh]

If you wait, you can always spay her next year, or later. But if you spay, it can't be undone.

I've only had one litter, but I worried like you about finding good homes for the puppies. Eventually I decided to view it as that I could only do the best I could, and both have it in the contract, and make sure to tell the buyer, that if they couldn't keep the puppy/adult dog, I was the first one they should contact. Offered continued contact, and support, if they where interested in that, etc.
And after all, most dogs I meet out and about seems to be reasonably happy, and well looked after, even though I might think both this, and that about their owners (and they probably thinks the same about me).

Even though some bitches have large litters, the opposite also happen. As I recall, Jonna had 7 or 8 siblings, but her litter had 3 puppies, which I could have sold... But I had already decided that I wanted to keep 1 bitch, then it turned out my mum had fallen in love with the other bitch, so both of them stayed, and I only sold the male puppy. We don't have regular contact, but 12 years later it still happens that I meet Boris + his owner occasionally.

Something else to worry about besides finding suitable buyers, is what to do if things go wrong. For example, awhile after the puppies are born, you need check them over so that everything is there, like an anus, and that they don't have a cleft nose/palate. If something does turn out to be wrong, it's best to have at least a vague plan for what to do.

But if responsible persons like you, don't consider breeding their suitable bitches, due to the risks, I don't understand why responsible breeders should want to risk their bitches either, and who are future dog owners going to buy their new dogs from then?
Besides, who knows, something might turn up in the health tests, and the whole question becomes irrelevant. And then you can spay her without thinking what if.

I had a foxhound bitch here to whelp BITD as they had fading pup syndrome at the kennels. There had also been an awful outbreak of illness while she was pregnant, they were fed a bad carcass or one that had been given something dogs couldn't have and lots of hounds had died. Anyway, the bitch carried to full term and it was my first whelping. It was awful, she had 2 live and healthy pups, then one runt with a cleft palate, then one that was only half a puppy. Achieving those took 3 oxytocin jabs. Then I had to take her to the vets for an emergency caeser to get the rest out and they were all dead. I know it's not always as bad as that but it was horrible. Helping to get the one out that had no rear end at all, just rudimentary stumps coming from its belly made me sick. She was the most wonderful hound and mother. Heatbreaking. The runt died btw.

I think your other points are good ones, and I like your observation that most dogs are happy and well looked after. A lot of working dogs aren't though, but my standards are very pernickety.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I saw the mention of his eye wipes - a 3 dog one at a championship I think it said, that can't be dismissed. He seems quite careful on his outrun but then anything that doesn't just crash into things and hurt itself is a plus for me these days. (Just been out training now and Ffee clipped a gatepost ).
I like yellows, my OH has blacks and I have yellows, which means when we split up on a shoot day I get to say 'To me, the yellows' which never fails to make me happy. BUT Tawny has been endlessly lame her whole career, Ffee missed days with cracked feet earlier this season and now Peril, @stiffknees, appears to also have bad feet - is it a yellow thing? I had said I was going black in future.

We have had more yellows than blacks over the years and never had any foot problems in either colours. If the stud is related to any of yours with foot problems, I certainly wouldn't use him. It seems to me that breeders have managed to breed foot problems into a breed that traditionally had very serviceable feet.

 

[druid]

Thank you for that, I was impressed, I know you do that sort of thing but wow. Would that have been a blind?

Yes, it's a blind. It's nice line and he handles well but for a FT lab that sort of things is bread and butter....my springers when polished would do that (might need stopping and pushing back once or twice)

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Perhaps put a show dog to a worker. They should never have been separated, imo. We had some beautiful, bright intelligent dogs in those days.

But looking at show versus working, they’re very different builds. I wouldn’t want to go into any kind of cover with a show type with a huge head, so I see why they’re separated, although I understand not everyone hunts and some people just want pets. Looking at Bear, he has a huge head, is clumsy, was forever injuring himself in the woods because he has a huge drive/goes straight through stuff.

I could really fancy a show type springer next time, I love the huge heads. Scratch that, I think I’d like a setter, saw a lovely looking litter in Eire this week.

 

[Clodagh]

But looking at show versus working, they’re very different builds. I wouldn’t want to go into any kind of cover with a show type with a huge head, so I see why they’re separated, although I understand not everyone hunts and some people just want pets. Looking at Bear, he has a huge head, is clumsy, was forever injuring himself in the woods because he has a huge drive/goes straight through stuff.

I could really fancy a show type springer next time, I love the huge heads. Scratch that, I think I’d like a setter, saw a lovely looking litter in Eire this week.

I'd love an English setter. If you could find any that weren't a walking vets bill. One day, when we live near a moor I will have one.
There are some very handsome working labs about that have excellent conformation.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes, it's a blind. It's nice line and he handles well but for a FT lab that sort of things is bread and butter....my springers when polished would do that (might need stopping and pushing back once or twice)

TBH my standard any working bred lab would be good enough, but it is interesting as I collect more of them how they are all so different.

 

[druid]

TBH my standard any working bred lab would be good enough, but it is interesting as I collect more of them how they are all so different.

I'd expect a good picking up lab to handle that far out, the FT bit is the polish of the straight line and one cast pick. Honestly, if I was you I'd buy rather than breed in the current climate but I'd avoid any lines with feet problems

 

[Clodagh]

I'd expect a good picking up lab to handle that far out, the FT bit is the polish of the straight line and one cast pick. Honestly, if I was you I'd buy rather than breed in the current climate but I'd avoid any lines with feet problems

The worry about the current climate is the number of people who I imagine will be trying to recoup some of their losses on the pup they bought this year by breeding over the next couple.
Was that what you meant?

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Bar leish, I know sweet fa about English setters, but I really like the look of them. This litter is in Newry, wrong side of the border and I’m in no position to buy, but the one with heavy markings on his face-middle pup, omg! I think it’s because he reminds me of Bear, lots of spots, big head. Also, 2nd from left! ? Suspiciously cheap at £600. ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

But looking at show versus working, they’re very different builds. I wouldn’t want to go into any kind of cover with a show type with a huge head, so I see why they’re separated, although I understand not everyone hunts and some people just want pets. Looking at Bear, he has a huge head, is clumsy, was forever injuring himself in the woods because he has a huge drive/goes straight through stuff.

I could really fancy a show type springer next time, I love the huge heads. Scratch that, I think I’d like a setter, saw a lovely looking litter in Eire this week.

My point was breeders have *created* two distinct types, that used not to be the case. We had average sized Labs, with Dual Champions in their pedigrees, breeders should make serious attempts to get back to that dual type because in their attempts to be breed 'super-show' type Labs and 'super-working' type Labs they have created problems, one of which seems to be weak feet. We currently have 2 working type Labs, who are tiny compared to the Labs we had when I was a girl. Those Labs were extremely healthy and lived long lives. Admittedly we did rehome a black dog who had been bred to show who grew too big for the breed standard, so it was obviously starting back then. He lived a long and healthy life too.

 

[windand rain]

Willow is working bred through and through but looks more like a show lab she does have a working brain
A real chunky monkey

 

[druid]

The worry about the current climate is the number of people who I imagine will be trying to recoup some of their losses on the pup they bought this year by breeding over the next couple.
Was that what you meant?

Yes, and selling on pups has been common - I know litters where prices have been very different for known buyers vs outsiders

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

My point was breeders have *created* two distinct types, that used not to be the case. He lived a long and healthy life too.

I got your point, I just think they’ve separated two sizes, like springers and cockers then kept both types. There are show and working springers, my bil has a tiny working bred type, we have Bear of the huge head.

The health issue strikes me as two pronged, esp with labs. Most numerically high breed and lots of indiscriminate breeding without health tests. Back in the day, even 30 years ago, numbers weren’t so high, maybe this meant fewer issues/longer lived dogs? Possibly also less additives in food and dogs were fed table scraps. I’m sure it’s a helluva lot more scientific than that, I’m just throwing out some random ideas.

 

[druid]

To explain my type of Lab - InT FTCh Miller McDuff or Int FTCh Tamrose Aragon are ones I would look at. In yellows, despite being paler FTCh Brocklebank Navigator of Chatsworth is a very smart dog

 

[Stiff Knees]

I am sincerely hoping that Peril's foot problems are environmemtal, rather than bred in. She was intended to be a pet dog, not a worker, although she comes from working lines. Now she's with us, she is a pet who also earns a tiny portion of her keep!! On a non working day she'll be exercised covering 12 or so miles, she rarely picks up foot injuries then, they tend to occur on her working days when she's travelling over very stony, flinty land.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I got your point, I just think they’ve separated two sizes, like springers and cockers then kept both types. There are show and working springers, my bil has a tiny working bred type, we have Bear of the huge head.

The health issue strikes me as two pronged, esp with labs. Most numerically high breed and lots of indiscriminate breeding without health tests. Back in the day, even 30 years ago, numbers weren’t so high, maybe this meant fewer issues/longer lived dogs? Possibly also less additives in food and dogs were fed table scraps. I’m sure it’s a helluva lot more scientific than that, I’m just throwing out some random ideas.

Personally, I think that selective breeding for specific attributes , whether that is the big show dog head, or the workers' brain/aptitude has neglected to take into account the possible health problems.
I think I have said before that I had 2 'chocolate' pups (I hate that word, they were liver or brown),one had to be pts with cancer at 18 months and the other developed epilepsy just after that. The epileptic one had a chewed ear, which I was told mum had done (I was given her as buy 1, get 1 free).

I always thought after the diagnosis that the dam was also epileptic and should not have been bred from and she bit pup's ear during a seizure but they were breeding for colour. That is almost 40 yr ago. The epileptic one lived to be almost 15, actually and was otherwise healthy, fortunately.
The current fashion for 'fox-red' is going to go the same way, imo. Breeders need to be much more responsible.

 

[Clodagh]

To explain my type of Lab - InT FTCh Miller McDuff or Int FTCh Tamrose Aragon are ones I would look at. In yellows, despite being paler FTCh Brocklebank Navigator of Chatsworth is a very smart dog

I will have a look, thank you.

 

[Goldenstar]

He’s lovely just lovely .
I do love fox red labs though our first one was red when I was a baby and they popped up in my Dads line for years .
I have never had puppies from one of our girlies because I was so traumatised by them leaving when I was little I can’t face it .

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Willow is working bred through and through but looks more like a show lab she does have a working brainView attachment 63156
A real chunky monkey

She is lovely, a real old-fashioned type of traditional Lab - just how they should be!

 

[Goldenstar]

I have had a long run of keepers type labs but well bred one they have been super long lived and sound .
let’s hope the new one is as lucky .

 

[Clodagh]

He’s lovely just lovely .
I do love fox red labs though our first one was red when I was a baby and they popped up in my Dads line for years .
I have never had puppies from one of our girlies because I was so traumatised by them leaving when I was little I can’t face it .

I’m pretty sure that will end up being my reason to not do it!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I got your point, I just think they’ve separated two sizes, like springers and cockers then kept both types. There are show and working springers, my bil has a tiny working bred type, we have Bear of the huge head.

The health issue strikes me as two pronged, esp with labs. Most numerically high breed and lots of indiscriminate breeding without health tests. Back in the day, even 30 years ago, numbers weren’t so high, maybe this meant fewer issues/longer lived dogs? Possibly also less additives in food and dogs were fed table scraps. I’m sure it’s a helluva lot more scientific than that, I’m just throwing out some random ideas.

If I'm allowed to go outside the subject of Labradors specifically, I've read a book, and some articles, by Jan-Erik Sundgren. He was a Heredity researcher, and State agronomist at the Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, and for many years he worked as an advisor for the Swedish Kennelklubben, and different breed clubs.

Judging by his book, which came out 1990, he believed that the biggest causes behind today's dog's health problems is (in no particular order)
* inbreeding,
* too much line-breeding,
* too many overused stud dogs (so called Matadors) leading to a too small gene pool,
* that the thinking of reserving breeding for the best/too high standards for non health related issues can exclude too many potential breeding animals which leads to the narrowing down of gene pools,
* and regardless if we're talking purebred or not purebred dogs, bitch owners who breeds their bitches without enough knowledge about breeding.

Maybe if he had he written his book today, he would also have mentioned environmental pollution, and perhaps also additives in food, but who knows.
By the way, he's also said something about that even though first generation crossbreeds can be more innate healthy, not purebred animals do not have to be better than purebred animals as future breeding animals, since all that matters is if you're crossing two animals with the same damaged/weak genes or not.

Anyhow, it is his recommendations that is basis to for example the Lapphund breed club in Sweden's rules, and recommendations about that: A Finnish Lapphund stud dog is allowed to sire 25 puppies before he is 5 years old, and should not to be used at all after that he has sired 50 puppies in total.
That the total inbreeding for a 5 generation Finnish Lapphund pedigree should not exceed 6,25%. And that a planned mating between two Finnish Lapphunds should have an inbreeding of max 2,5%.

I'm sure the inbreeding percentage for Jonna's litter was below 1, if my vague recollection is correct, it was 0,2%. But of course, low inbreeding percentage is no guarantee neither against accidents, nor nature's lottery. Besides, sooner or later something has to start going wonky, or dogs would be immortal.

Another of course is that the rules/recommendations about trying to prevent Matador stud dogs currently only seems to work if the stud dog owner have a conscience. I know that the Swedish breed club for Rhodesian Ridgeback recommends that no stud dog is allowed to sire more than 40 puppies. Yet, I've heard one Swedish stud dog owner brag on TV about that his Rhodesian Ridgeback had sired over 200 puppies when you also counted in the puppies sired in other countries!
I don't know what the equivalent number is for Border Collie stud dogs in Sweden, but I've also heard an owner of a Border Collie stud dog basically say that he couldn't sire any more puppies in Sweden, so they were now hoping that bitch owners in other countries would want to use him.

Some years ago a breeder of a quite small breed proudly told me that a stud dog she had bred, and I had met, could now be found in the pedigree of every new puppy born in Sweden of that breed. It made me so sad to hear that, I didn't know what to answer her. I think I mumbled something vaguely about that he'd been a nice dog.
Talk about shooting herself, and the breed, in the foot, I can't imagine that it leads to anything good.

But back to Labradors, I know the Labrador breed is divided also in Sweden. I've heard that there was a few Labradors who managed to become both Swedish Show champions, and Hunt champions in the early 90's, but nowadays the closest I've been able to find is that some Labradors in the Nordic countries have managed to receive Excellent in individual quality at dog shows, at the same time as they have good results at different hunting trials.
Like the Norwegian: Djurbergas Second Ess For Brave

 

[Clodagh]

I am sincerely hoping that Peril's foot problems are environmemtal, rather than bred in. She was intended to be a pet dog, not a worker, although she comes from working lines. Now she's with us, she is a pet who also earns a tiny portion of her keep!! On a non working day she'll be exercised covering 12 or so miles, she rarely picks up foot injuries then, they tend to occur on her working days when she's travelling over very stony, flinty land.

I do hope that Peril was not offended by me throwing her name in the mix! But our blacks have (touch wood) never been lame, although even in her youth Brandy rarely went fast enough to injure herself and Pen weighs 19kgs wet so sort of floats.

 

[blackcob]

Great post FL. At risk of derailing I remember during a past discussion on here about popular sire syndrome that I looked up some 'big name' FTCh cocker spaniels and was absolutely gobsmacked that many of them had sired 1000+ puppies.

 

[Clodagh]

A very interesting and well written post, FL.
My amateur opinion is that if people only breed from superstars you end up with a bunch of superstars who aren't what everyone wants to live with. Like horses, super hot rocket dogs aren't as easy as a pootler, and unless you have serious commitment they will drive you to drink or despair.
I don't think you see many working labs pedigrees without Pocklea Remus in them for instance, he is in all of mine and in twice with most. (Ready for more knowledgable people to show pedigrees without him!).
I love the lab photographed, and he is a gorgeous shade of yellow. He is not dissimilar, to my eye, to Thistle's dog.

 

[Stiff Knees]

I do hope that Peril was not offended by me throwing her name in the mix! But our blacks have (touch wood) never been lame, although even in her youth Brandy rarely went fast enough to injure herself and Pen weighs 19kgs wet so sort of floats.

? Not at all offended, she loves the column inches!! One of our blacks also had foot issues, common denominator is environment, rather than colour, I hope. ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Having a breed with two pronounced types, they pretty much have separate gene pools now.
As a generalisation, Show x Working straight crosses tend to be very pretty with no drive, or fugly with mediocre drive. Of course there are some good ones.
But to achieve the golden mean, the first few generations will usually be a wash-out.
If you think how many generations it took to get this way, it won't be fixed overnight.
The tragedy is that in my own breed's case, the public doesn't want a huge, over-angulated, bright red bear-head dog, nor do they want a highly driven, extremely energetic 100 points dog that wants to eat the sofa if you don't take him training.

 

[Clodagh]

To explain my type of Lab - InT FTCh Miller McDuff or Int FTCh Tamrose Aragon are ones I would look at. In yellows, despite being paler FTCh Brocklebank Navigator of Chatsworth is a very smart dog

I don't like Miller McDuff's head...shallow but there you go! The other two are very nice indeed.
Young Ffee is off to be spayed on the 2nd Feb, so none of them will be her future husband. I love looking at dogs though, and the videos of retrieves. It has got me all inspired for my training and I can actually train in the woods and game covers for a change. .

 

[P3LH]

I must say it’s so refreshing to see ‘proper
Labradors’ on this thread.

I was one of those awful people growing up who thought they were boring, well I had terriers - lots of them, so by comparison anything was! However as an adult I have a huge appreciation for them, and really admire a ‘good one’.

I have some die hard lab relatives, but must confess some of their dogs do nothing for more. Pokey faces and wonky ears like you used to see on gsd x black lab types a lot once upon a time. The dogs here and wonderful.

Clodagh I also feel your pain about the should I shouldn’t I situation, I have the same with corgi Sherman tank. She’s just come out of season and it’s been an nightmare with keeping everyone separate and the other two howling and being tarts. A lot of fuss really.

She turned out a lot nicer than I anticipated in terms of type and temperament, her breeder agrees too - she was a very plain almost dowdy pup compared to her litter mates. She has lots of positive attributes (not including health testing results as obviously she hasn’t been yet as I really don’t know what I plan to do) and unlike a lot of her breed, isn’t grossly long and actually has legs on which to move on. It’s difficult though, a big commitment. I have the perfect stud lined up too who would compliment her but as a breed they often whelp one or two and then run into trouble or give up and need a c-section.

Like you, homes wouldn’t be an issue. But there’s definitely something quite mammoth about the sense of responsibility and commitment in taking a litter that makes it feel a little hard to see the wood for the trees on the matter. I don’t know how people do it so Willy nilly for a bit of cash here and there, and without any thought or real reason behind taking a litter.

The dog you posted is quite special I must say. It’s unusual to see that ‘sort’ of yellow from working lines eith such nice type and conformation, IME.

 

[Clodagh]

I must say it’s so refreshing to see ‘proper
Labradors’ on this thread.

I was one of those awful people growing up who thought they were boring, well I had terriers - lots of them, so by comparison anything was! However as an adult I have a huge appreciation for them, and really admire a ‘good one’.

I have some die hard lab relatives, but must confess some of their dogs do nothing for more. Pokey faces and wonky ears like you used to see on gsd x black lab types a lot once upon a time. The dogs here and wonderful.

Clodagh I also feel your pain about the should I shouldn’t I situation, I have the same with corgi Sherman tank. She’s just come out of season and it’s been an nightmare with keeping everyone separate and the other two howling and being tarts. A lot of fuss really.

She turned out a lot nicer than I anticipated in terms of type and temperament, her breeder agrees too - she was a very plain almost dowdy pup compared to her litter mates. She has lots of positive attributes (not including health testing results as obviously she hasn’t been yet as I really don’t know what I plan to do) and unlike a lot of her breed, isn’t grossly long and actually has legs on which to move on. It’s difficult though, a big commitment. I have the perfect stud lined up too who would compliment her but as a breed they often whelp one or two and then run into trouble or give up and need a c-section.

Like you, homes wouldn’t be an issue. But there’s definitely something quite mammoth about the sense of responsibility and commitment in taking a litter that makes it feel a little hard to see the wood for the trees on the matter. I don’t know how people do it so Willy nilly for a bit of cash here and there, and without any thought or real reason behind taking a litter.

The dog you posted is quite special I must say. It’s unusual to see that ‘sort’ of yellow from working lines eith such nice type and conformation, IME.

Now not helping your decision at all, but a decent rare breed should be bred from, you almost owe it to the gene pool. Labs really are a dime a dozen, although yes I think mine are the best! I would say though that is my limitations as a trainer rather than the limitations of their breeding that have caused any deficiencies in their performance.