oh Kauto!

ladyt25 said:
Had AP ridden him before? I had a feeling not but my racing knowledge is not that fantastic. I know he has been ridden by someone else other than Ruby and Sam but didn't know who it was.
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AP had never ridden him in a race before. The only other person who has ridden him in a race since he came over from France was Mick Fitzgerald but that was back in 2005.
 
Bertthefrog said:
I must admit - I hope they retire him too. He has done so much and given so many people so much pleasure.

I remember watching One Man's last race - and his owner saying that all he wanted was for him to come home safely...

Surely it is better to retire a little too early, than too late?
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I remember that race & was absolutely gutted, One Man was a terriific horse :(

Yes it was APs first ride on him which may have a reason as to why he didnt run as well (as many as other things but just my opinion)
 
Daffodil said:
He should be retired now. Forget the Gold Cup. The King George field was not a stellar one, and he was struggling for most of it. The Gold Cup will have the likes of Imperial Commander, Time for Rupert and Long Run, horses half Kauto's age, and the ground could well be worse there than at Kempton.

If anything happened to Kauto in March the damage to how racing is perceived will be immense. This lovely horse deserves an honourable retirement from a job at which he has excelled for so many years.

He would make a fantastic ambassador for Racehorse to Riding Horse (Moscow Flyer has done it in Ireland).

I pray that neither Paul Nicholls nor Clive Smith are becoming greedy.
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I just can't agree sorry. Despite the fact I love and admire this horse and my heart is in my mouth every time he runs in case something terrible happens I feel he shouldn't be written off as finished after one bad run. Yes he's 11 (officially anyway) but he has always been campaigned intelligently and as already stated Paul Nicholl's runners have been under parr of late.

I remember Richard Burridge saying of Dessie, (roughly paraphrased from memory) every time he runs it's not an exaggeration to say he risks his life, defeat doesn't frighten us but the thought of losing him does - but this horse was born to race. I think the same could be said of Kauto.
 
TelH said:
AP had never ridden him in a race before. The only other person who has ridden him in a race since he came over from France was Mick Fitzgerald but that was back in 2005.
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I still think AP is not the right jockey for Kauto, but having said that, he did not, as I think we all feared, go off like a rocket on him, nor did he particularly display his usual driving determination. If anything I think he rode a bit defensively. The only time he drove him to a fence he nearly capsized. Could one say he was nervous of his responsibility?

I don't know but I don't think AP could have done any more.
 
It's a view, Minesadouble, and a perfectly valid one. However, at what point do you call it a day. No horse can go on for ever, and do we really want to see an exhausted Kauto, at the very least, trailing in behind the placed horses. Just because racing is his job, one that he has excelled at for so many years and given so much pleasure (and alarming moments!) to so many people.

Dessie fell in his last King George and was lucky to get up.

Kauto has given his connections warning with a less than brilliant performance at Down Royal, a poor run on Saturday with a nosebleed from both nostrils afterwards.

The brave decision from Ditcheat would be to announce his retirement, a summer at grass and a new career in another discipline. He'd make a wonderful eventer (how do you chose the lucky rider though?) and the half passes and shoulders in he did at Aintree going down to the start of the Old Roan a few years ago have stuck in my mind ever since!
 
I felt kauto could've been ridden differently, he didn't seem right from the word go, if he'd had a bleed during then surely he'd have been pulled up? I felt AP should've pulled him up after the 2nd last as he obviously wasn't right.
Long run's win was well deserved.
I know Mick Fitzgerald has ridden kauto. But AP hadn't ridden kauto in a race before this.

I know people think Kauto is a great horse and will push him in group ones, but given his form of late... maybe he's saying enough's enough?? Will see what happens in march at cheltenham.
 
Daffodil said:
I still think AP is not the right jockey for Kauto, but having said that, he did not, as I think we all feared, go off like a rocket on him, nor did he particularly display his usual driving determination. If anything I think he rode a bit defensively. The only time he drove him to a fence he nearly capsized. Could one say he was nervous of his responsibility?

I don't know but I don't think AP could have done any more.
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I don't think AP did a thing wrong either. It was a brave person who took that ride on, the weight of the racing world was on his shoulders and just imagine the implications for AP if he didn't bring him home safe. So yes possibly he was on the defensive a little. Having said that I don't think it would have made a great deal of difference on this occasion if Ruby had been on him, maybe that very near miss wouldn't have happened but even without that he was never going to catch Long Run. It just shows what an amazing horse he is though, 2 incredibly below par performances have still resulted in a win and a 3rd in grade one races this season.
 
I would like to see Kauto take one more calibre race - for his own confidence. He owes nothing to us. I believe that dreadful fall last season at Cheltenham knocked him severely.
 
It has been well publicised that the horse bled after the race and that Paul Nicholls felt he was never going to win at any point. Also that his lad said he was unusually quiet in his box that morning so he was not at the top of his game. When a horse isn't taking you forward a) you have to try to get him up to the bridle to create the power to jump off a forward stride b) unless he comes up to the bridle he will be more inclined to put in short strides than stand off which is what was happening. In the past his mistakes have come when he is not really up into the bridle and left to his own devices, then he guesses a bit. The way he was going A.P. was correct to hold him together to pop as he hadn't got the power to be able to go for the forward stride. Rather than creating a problem, A.P. was having to deal with a situation. He did nothing wrong.
If he was the muppet that some seem to make him out to be, he wouldn't have ridden over 3000 winners including most of the top races and won connections over £1,000,000 in prize money every season since 1994/5 including close to £3,000,000 last season.
 
The facts are these:-

Long Run fully deserved his win, and SWC rode a brilliant race.....you wouldn't know the man was an amateur unless you had to get nit picky.

Kauto was never competitive in the race(for whatever reason, although obviously most likely the bleed was to blame)

AP did NOTHING wrong on Kauto. He's arguably the best NH jockey of all time.

My opinion is this:-

Kauto should now be retired. What value is there to racing him in the Gold Cup when the likelihood is that he'll be beaten? He fell last year, an awful fall that he was lucky to get up from. He doesn't owe anybody anything. He was an amazing champion, an exciting, exuberant, horse to watch who was just as capable of jumping appallingly as he was to create a feeling of awe at his brilliancy over the fences.
Why risk him for the sake of one more race when he could be retired in one piece to enjoy an hopefully long and happy retirement?
 
oldvic said:
It has been well publicised that the horse bled after the race and that Paul Nicholls felt he was never going to win at any point. Also that his lad said he was unusually quiet in his box that morning so he was not at the top of his game. When a horse isn't taking you forward a) you have to try to get him up to the bridle to create the power to jump off a forward stride b) unless he comes up to the bridle he will be more inclined to put in short strides than stand off which is what was happening. In the past his mistakes have come when he is not really up into the bridle and left to his own devices, then he guesses a bit. The way he was going A.P. was correct to hold him together to pop as he hadn't got the power to be able to go for the forward stride. Rather than creating a problem, A.P. was having to deal with a situation. He did nothing wrong.
If he was the muppet that some seem to make him out to be, he wouldn't have ridden over 3000 winners including most of the top races and won connections over £1,000,000 in prize money every season since 1994/5 including close to £3,000,000 last season.
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Of course, he's not a muppet! He's the greatest jockey of all time, but that doesn't make him the RIGHT jockey for every horse. You're absolutely right in saying he had to deal with what he had on the day, he did nothing wrong and he got him home.

Just hope Ruby's on him at Cheltenham, and if he's not firing, will pull him up before there's an accident.

Someone earlier had suggested he's not been the same since his Cheltenham fall, and I think they're absolutely right.
 
To run him and lose him at Cheltenham would be a crying shame. Let him retire and do something else. I'm wondering when and how they'll decide on his behalf that retirement is his - and if the decision will be made tragically before then.
 
I think we are all agreed, he is a wonderful horse.
And yes, his job is racing, but we all have to retire at some stage. I suppose we have to respect the fact that PN knows the horse better than anyone and that he will make the right decision at the right time.
Personally I dont want to see him run in the Gold Cup again but if he does, I will be cheering him on all the way and willing him back safe and sound.

On the subject of AP, I think he was the best man for the job in the absence of Ruby and Noel F, who I think are very similar in style and therefore suit PN horses and their way of running. The truth is he wouldn't have won whoever was on his back as he was not 100% on Satuarday.

If we want to see him go out on a high, what other race could he run in ? Doesnt necessarily have to be at Cheltenham.
 
Definitely agree Paul Nicholls will know him better than all of us but sometimes (and I speak from experience) horses make a decision for you. I think the fear is the longer Kauto goes on the greater chance there is of that happening. As far as missing the gold cup in favour of somewhere else goes the obvious answer would be to look for a race at either Punchestown or Aintree (not the National!!) But then he would quite likely get accused of bottling it so you're damned if you do and damned if you don't really. Whatever he does, Cheltenham and beyond that, the main thing is that he stays safe.
 
This was always going to be the thing with AP. If he won, he'd have been a hero. If he lost, the blame lands on his shoulders. And he lost, so people are looking for a scapegoat - King Kauto can't possibly have been fairly beaten, it must have been the jockey! Imagine what it would have been like if AP had been riding him at Cheltenham when he took that terrible fall. AP would have been slammed for pushing him and nearly killing him. As it was Ruby, no one said a word. Quite rightly, because it wasn't his fault, but the point is this - the horse was below par. We must accept that. AP did absolutely nothing wrong, and people need to learn to accept that King Kauto actually wasn't King this day, he was beaten fair and square. I'm a huge AP fan but I agree - I like Ruby on the horse, he does seem to get the best out of him simply because he's done almost all his winning with Ruby on so naturally, you would say that. However, without Ruby, AP was definitely the best option, and if the horse had been on form and he'd won, AP would have been a hero.

Ruby would have needed wings to have made him win on Saturday.

If the horse still wants to go racing, then he should go racing. If he's bounding fit at home and gets over the bleed, they just can't retire him. I am sure that Ruby will be on the lookout for any warning signs in the Gold Cup and will know if enough is enough and to stop pushing - and if that happens then they'll probably retire him. But if he's fit and well then I think they should keep racing him. As Paul Nicholls himself said, he's 11, not 13, and he did just come 3rd in the King George with a bleed - he's not totally hopeless, if he'd pulled up or tailed off then I might think differently. When he starts work again at home, we'll hear what they think of him. Just as long as he's enjoying himself.
 
teagreen said:
As Paul Nicholls himself said, he's 11, not 13, and he did just come 3rd in the King George with a bleed - he's not totally hopeless, if he'd pulled up or tailed off then I might think differently. When he starts work again at home, we'll hear what they think of him. Just as long as he's enjoying himself.
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It is quite amazing still to come third in a race like that, but Henderson was in form hey, five winners including two 2nds and a 4th and that was just at Kempton! And Paul’s stable (still not bad) but not in his usual form. I do like Kauto but believe that Sam Thomas maybe should have had the ride on him, AP is great and I would love some of his glue that he used in that race!
 
sleepingdragon10 said:
The facts are these:-

Long Run fully deserved his win, and SWC rode a brilliant race.....you wouldn't know the man was an amateur unless you had to get nit picky.

Kauto was never competitive in the race(for whatever reason, although obviously most likely the bleed was to blame)

AP did NOTHING wrong on Kauto. He's arguably the best NH jockey of all time.

My opinion is this:-

Kauto should now be retired. What value is there to racing him in the Gold Cup when the likelihood is that he'll be beaten? He fell last year, an awful fall that he was lucky to get up from. He doesn't owe anybody anything. He was an amazing champion, an exciting, exuberant, horse to watch who was just as capable of jumping appallingly as he was to create a feeling of awe at his brilliancy over the fences.
Why risk him for the sake of one more race when he could be retired in one piece to enjoy an hopefully long and happy retirement?
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Ditto all of this :)
 
Apparently Clive Smith is quoted as saying that KS would have a "great chance" in the Gold Cup under Ruby Walsh and "Tony is a great jockey but maybe Ruby is more to his (KS) liking".

Make of that what you will.

Interesting to see how AP gets on with Master Minded on Sat at Ascot.

Not knocking AP, he is a legend, but not sure his style of riding is suited to the likes of KS. Hes very good at organising his horses and taking control. However, that can put some horses off their rythmn and stride. Maybe Kauto is better suited to Ruby's style of sitting quiet and letting them roll on and jump more freely.
It will definately be interesting to see who he chooses to ride in the Gold Cup, assuming he's fit in time.

I'm still undecided as to whether KS is better left or right handed and therefore whether I'd prefer to see him at Aintree or Punchestown.
 
The last 2 schooling videos of I have seen of Kauto he looked way better going right handed, but horses that go badly left handed don't win 2 gold cups so it's hard to say which way he is better. Perhaps that's another reason why he is so great, on his day it doesn't matter which way he is going. I think Ruby has been quoted in the past as saying he will always stay loyal to Kauto, I assume come March he will be given the choice of Kauto or Denman again, I hope he does stay loyal to him.
 
ladyt25 said:
Hmm, see I think I'll probably get slammed for saying it but I will anyway - i am not a big fan of McCoy's riding. Yes no doubt he must be good to have got where he is BUT when i see him ride in races it makes me worry for the horse as he often tends to get overly aggressive riding wise near to the end and seems to upset the stride and jump of the horse. In this race he looked to me to be holding Kauto pretty tight right from the word go and Kauto was not jumping fluidly at all. it was not pretty. He did not seem to look comfortable at all. Maybe it is due to the bleed, maybe he was not feeling 100% but he certainly was not seeming to run as comfortably as he does normally.
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I agree with this 100%

Im not knocking AP but i believe that his riding style doesn't suit some horses
 
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Everyone seems to forget the amount of monumental blunders Kauto Star has made with Ruby, sometimes resulting in falling. Those mistakes have looked to be when the horse has met the fence wrong and Ruby has left him alone so he guessed and banked the fence. That he wasn't travelling wasn't that he didn't like A.P. but, for whatever reason, he was not himself. Everyone bayed for Sam Thomas' blood when he got unseated from him at Haydock,. although weeks later P.Nicholls admitted that he shouldn't have run as it came too soon after going to Ireland, again forgetting that he won on him the previous year. If Clive Smith is quoted accurately then he is not behaving with much grace and dignity. His horse was beaten and would have been whoever was on him so those sort of comments start to look like a child in the playground whose best conker was smashed.

I believe that Denman is Sam's ride now unless something happens to KS making Ruby available - Paul Barber's wish.

As has already been said, A.P. has won on Master Minded before so he has proved that he does suit the horse.
 
Kauto has never looked like a natural jumper, he has learned to jump, and he has nearly always made one bad mistake in a race. I always thought that Denman was the better jumper.

I wouldn't like to say anything about AP, someone earlier made an excellent analysis of the race and why AP rode him like he did.

Still, I read Richard Dunwoody's book and he once took over the ride on a very famous and successful horse that had previously been ridden by another jockey. The partnership didn't get on well in the first couple of races, so Richard range the previous rider and asked him how he rode in the races. "Oh I did nothing." "Nothing at all?"
"Absolutely nothing, left it all to the horse." So Richard did nothing in the next race, and won.
 
sleepingdragon10 said:
The facts are these:-

Long Run fully deserved his win, and SWC rode a brilliant race.....you wouldn't know the man was an amateur unless you had to get nit picky.

Kauto was never competitive in the race(for whatever reason, although obviously most likely the bleed was to blame)

AP did NOTHING wrong on Kauto. He's arguably the best NH jockey of all time.

My opinion is this:-

Kauto should now be retired. What value is there to racing him in the Gold Cup when the likelihood is that he'll be beaten? He fell last year, an awful fall that he was lucky to get up from. He doesn't owe anybody anything. He was an amazing champion, an exciting, exuberant, horse to watch who was just as capable of jumping appallingly as he was to create a feeling of awe at his brilliancy over the fences.
Why risk him for the sake of one more race when he could be retired in one piece to enjoy an hopefully long and happy retirement?
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Agree with most of that, apart from the line I have highlighted...

While I don't think the result would have been any different had Ruby ridden him, I do think that AP's style doesn't suit every horse.
He may be a prolific winner, but Ruby, Sam Thomas, and Barry Gerrity are all better, 'quieter' riders imho.
In fact, I would like to see a break down of the above jockeys wins on quality horses, rather than those lower quality horses which can be thrashed around the track in low grade races...

I think Kautos star is fading, and it's time to retire him rather than let him be humiliated by up and coming younger horses.

But I hope to god that Long Run is not entered for The GC at 6 years old. Let him have another season for deciding, as we really don't want to see a repeat of the Gloria Victis disaster. :(
 
I think its too early et to be saying Kauto needs to be retired. He had an infection, God himself couldn't have produced a winner with him when he is not 100%health. AP isn't 100% suited to the horse, thats no reflection on him as a jockey its just fact....that said AP also wasn't sitting on the true Kauto. The bleed is most likely a single occurence related to the infection. Happened one of ours last year, he's never burst again despite loads of runs since. Lets face it if any of you were approaching retirement age but not their yet and produced a bad days work where you still brought in some money for your employer but performed below par and they suggested retirement you'd say no give me a few days off to recover!!
 
I still maintain that people are using AP as the getout clause in all of this - the horse was a) beaten by younger, fresher legs and b) he had an infection and inflammation - I don't fancy my chances running a race well with an infection. Even with that, he still did come third, and had it not been for that mistake, possibly second. Which is still very good.

I think Long Run looked fresher and was still full of running going up the straight. Even without the mistake, I don't think Kauto would have caught him.

Every jockey has a different style. Well known, undisputed fact - Ruby sits quieter, Tony 'rides' them. And whilst what Ruby does has worked with Kauto in the past, I struggle to believe that AP's style on Saturday caused the horse to lose the race. If he had pushed and shoved the horse and been 'busy' on him without any need, then obviously I'd disagree. But he wasn't - he rode him pretty much as I imagine Ruby would have. It's hardly likely that Ruby would have said "Ride him quiet, he doesn't like being niggled" and AP thought "Well blow you, I'll do it my way!" because AP desperately wanted Kauto to win. I still think he is being used as the poor excuse as to why the horse lost, because people can't accept that there could be any flaw in Kauto's armour.

As someone else said, I think people are forgetting the awful mistakes that Kauto has made with Ruby and also the time Sam Thomas fell off him. And, of course, the howler of a fall he took under Ruby in the Gold Cup - people didn't blame Ruby then, but as I said, I have no doubt at all that AP would have been hounded for that had he been riding. Blaming AP here is, IMO, a poor excuse. I like Ruby on the horse just like everyone else, but I don't think AP did anything wrong on Kauto. Will be interesting to see what happens come Gold Cup time - AP will probably be stuck riding one of the poorer horses that he has to ride as a result of his retainer, and Ruby will be on Kauto. If Kauto wins, people will say "Well, it was Ruby's magic touch!" and ignore the fact that he'll be back to 100% health (hopefully). AP will no doubt come nowhere and people will laugh and say "See?"

AP doesn't get many rides on the 'big' names because he rides for JP McManus and therefore, usually, Jonjo O'Neill's stable. Which don't have very many quality horses - AP only picks up the odd good Saturday ride because the stable just don't have much quality. Nicholls, Henderson etc have stables full of top class horses that, because of retainers, Walsh and Geraghty get to ride. I think it makes AP an even better horseman that he can go to some backstreet track and ride a mediocre horse and manage to ignite the enthusiasm in it, play the correct tactical game and get it home in front on a day to day basis. He doesn't need to be riding massive names to be a great jockey, he shows it daily. Mamlook yesterday, for example.

Not that anyone has really said it here, but I'm fed up of the AP bashing of late - are people forgetting his rides on Mr Mulligan, Best Mate, Edredon Bleu, Don't Push It, Witchita Lineman (one of the greatest rides I think), Butlers Cabin, Master Minded, Synchronised, Well Chief, Exotic Dancer; all fantastic chasers, all ridden to success by AP in the biggest races. Of course he doesn't suit every horse; he's a horse rider like everyone else and no one does, but I don't think he's good for only 'bashing out' rubbish horses on a wet Monday afternoon. He's a high clas, stylish and extremely effective jockey who made a good job on a below par Kauto Star and has given many horses of all different types some wonderful rides.

One last observation - Nicky Hendersons is ON FIRE at the moment. He and Geraghty have winners left right and centre - 2 more good ones this afternoon at Newbury. His team are smoking and he's shortening all the time to be champion trainer. Nicholls, on the other hand, is have a rough time - the horses aren't running up to standard, he's struggling for winners and they are simply not in form. Be it something of Kauto's level or a 'normal' everyday horse, I know who I'd be backing right now out of the 2 of them. Cheltenham will be interesting - maybe Henderson will be unbeatable? Or maybe his run of form will have run out by then and the lull experienced by Nicholls at this time of year will have vanished and he'll be winning again. Master Minded on Saturday (ridden by AP!) ought to be a good indication. Master Minded v Petit Robin?!
 
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I so agree with you teagreen. I watched AP and kauto every inch of that race. And AP and Ruby are such good friends that I am sure they would have discussed this race inside out, both before and after it.
AP did absolutely nothing wrong.I bet he was more gutted than anyone.
 
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