Oh my dear god! A shock collar on a horse? Seriously?

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http://juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=199

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Question Category: Horse Behavior
Question: Hi Julie-
My husband and I have both benefited so much from your training DVDs, halters and lead ropes, as well as your wonderful television show. We look forward to continuing to learn from you and gain even more from other products. Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience!

We have a four-year-old draft cross mare. We are training her under harness and she is coming along nicely. In most ways she is a wonderful horse: calm, respectful and gentle. But we have an area of concern and aren't sure how to best handle it. We board a friend's gelding. Generally they get along fine. However, sometimes she just lays into him kicking, biting, running at him and charging him. Sometimes we are in the pasture with them when this behavior is going on. Needless to say, we are a bit nervous about getting caught in the crossfire. We have recently decided to separate the two for the winter, as we downsize their pasture in winter quite significantly.

Two questions for you: 1) Some of this is no doubt just normal horse behavior. Is there an underlying training issue though that we should be addressing with our mare? 2) She has never demonstrated any tendency at kicking towards us. We do recognize the risk to our safety when she is acting this way towards the gelding and we happen to be in the way. But is it likely that a horse acting this way with another horse will start getting that kicking tendency with humans?

Thanks so much for your time and any advice you can offer us in handling this situation!

Sherri in Spokane, WA

Answer: Sherri,
While the behavior you describe could be chalked up to normal herd behavior, some horses can be classified as bullies. These horses are unnecessarily aggressive towards others. In other words, even after dominance has been fully established, they continue to attack other horses around them—seemingly for no good reason other than just to pick on them. If the gelding is not doing anything to deserve these attacks, then I’d say your mare is a bully.

You are absolutely correct in that this behavior poses not only a safety issue for you and your husband, but also for the gelding. One thing to think about is whether or not this is primarily happening when you are in the pen with them. It is possible that she is very jealous and is trying to keep him from coming near you. This is not necessarily a good thing either because it could indicate that she thinks you are her property—so it could indicate a dominance issue between you and your horse.

In answer to your second question—will this lead to her kicking you—I’d say that is doubtful. It sounds like she knows how to act properly when she is haltered or tacked-up but I’d make darn sure she is harshly punished if she even thinks about displaying any type of herd behavior toward another horse when she is in-hand or being ridden. This is absolutely forbidden behavior and should be met with a zero-tolerance policy. There are several articles in my Training Library on this subject.

When you enter any pen of horses, the pecking order should immediately change to where you are the alpha in the pen. One thing you might consider is to go into the pen with a stick or whip (for your protection—not to beat on the horse with) and actually defend the gelding, by chasing away the mare’s attacks. This will only help him when you are present but it may help resolve the dominance issues that may be under-lying between you and the mare.

There is one sure-fired method of curing aggressive horses and I have used it a few times for this purpose. It is a shock collar. It straps around the horse’s neck and is operated off a remote control, issuing a mild and brief shock when you push the button on the remote. Shocking her for her two or three times for her unwarranted and dangerous behavior would probably be all it would take to permanently resolve her of the aggressiveness.

It is intended for use with extreme behavior that is harmful to horse, humans and/or property and it is highly effective. I’ve used it for stall and trailer kickers, for aggressive horses and for a tantrum throwing horse, who threw a wall-eyed destructive tantrum any time you’d take his buddy away. In most cases, one or two training sessions resolved the bad behavior; for the tantrum thrower, it took a few more.

Many people are initially turned off by this approach—I suppose thinking it is cruel or too harsh. But in my opinion, in certain circumstances, it is the most humane approach. I know of a horse who has now kicked and killed two horses by kicking them and breaking their legs. Then, take the case of a stall kicker—whose behavior can cause him serious injury and is destructive to property (and may result in him being evicted from a boarding barn). The most common training technique for this vice is to hang “kicking chains” on the horse’s hind legs which wrap him in the legs every time he kicks (and bumps his legs every time he moves). It will discourage him from kicking but you have to leave the chains on forever—not a very nice thing for the horse. Whereas one or two sessions with the shock collar would permanently cure him of stall kicking and prevent him from injury.

The best thing for your mare and for the safety of the gelding and the people in the pasture, is to Cure her of this behavior. Once she learns it is not acceptable, she’ll quit doing it and everyone, including her, will be happier.

Good luck and be safe!

Julie

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Can you believe anyone actually thinks that is a good idea?! Jesus, what goes on in peoples heads?!?!
 
Hmm, I can see the 'theory' behind it and this sort of aversion theray/tactic is sometimes used on dogs to curb their agressive but it is often a spray collar used not a shock collar.

Being that a horse is a flight animal I would imagine a shock collar would or could just cause the horse to panic which surely is not really an ideal response as you wouldn't know just how much the horse could panic and what the result could be - ie it could bolt etc causing more problems/accidents.

I think I would rather separate horses who really don't get on - sometimes some horses just don't gel for some reason. A much simpler solution.

As for the chains on the legs - what is that about?!!!!
 
interestingly one of the comments was about a guy, who I think for a bit of a bet was asked if he could train a horse to stand still and not move unless instructed to do so..... for hours on end not just for a short while.

He use the collar and shocked the horse every time it moved, I would have thought it might have had the opposite effect but apparently it worked and the horse would just stand in the field for hours until someone told it it could move. :(
 
that is just the most horrible thing. Is it really so hard to put them into different paddocks?! Yes it would be lovely if they were nice with each other, but the horses clearly don't get on. Why would anyone leave it long enough for an injury to become a problem while the hirearchy is resolved?! Get a fence up!
 
Interesting read, particularly when you consider that Wales is the first country in the UK to ban shock collars and their use in aversive training.
 
Oh dear, what with the Parelli feed back thread and then reading this, I think my eyes and ears are about to bleed. :confused::(

Its all going a bit Pete Tong for me.
 
I would never do this personally but looking at it from another perspective - we do use electric fencing to stop horses going where we don't want them to - just a thought
 
I think it would work ok. After all, I am sure most horses would just freeze, and I think its far better for an aggressive horse to get a quick shock, than for them to do untold damage perhaps to another horse. Have always said it would be a brilliant way to stop horses windsucking, especially if it shocked whenever a horse flexes its neck to the extent it needs to gulp air.
 
These are ANILMALS we are talking about, and in case they forgot they are FLIGHT animals. I feel like wrapping it round her neck and forgetting to turn it off!
Why would you want to scare the hell out of something to make it behave.
 
Just a thought though,what is the difference between that and an electric fence then? Yes, yes, I know that a collar is around the neck but apart from that?

Used sensibly, ie, one zap when the horse is attacking sends the same message as a zap from a fence because they touch it. I can see that there are no visible boundaries as with a fence, and that it may take a time or two for the horse to figure, attack = zap, but horses are far from stupid, the success or failure lies entirely with the collar operator though.
 
enfys said:
Just a thought though,what is the difference between that and an electric fence then? Yes, yes, I know that a collar is around the neck but apart from that?

Used sensibly, ie, one zap when the horse is attacking sends the same message as a zap from a fence because they touch it. I can see that there are no visible boundaries as with a fence, and that it may take a time or two for the horse to figure, attack = zap, but horses are far from stupid, the success or failure lies entirely with the collar operator though.
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Well pretty obvious really! Unless they get mangled it the fencing they get zapped they run off...a collar which she says leave on for 2 or 3 minutes thats a long time to be zapping a horse dont you think!!!!! Must scare the hell out of the poor thing. Wrong, wrong, wrong!
 
how about just seperating the horses with some electric tape, is it really that difficult? if dog shock collars are going to be banned, i dont see the diference in this to the dog type.
 
It was discussed on fugly that the only thing natural about any of her training is rope halters :)

Althought the thought initially makes you go :eek: am not sure in practice it would feel any different to the horse than a smack with a whip.
 
Troylimbo1 said:
Is it just me that saw 'natural horsemanship' in that article? Whats 'natural' about that?
Mmm........
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Exactly what I was thinking. Just put them in different fields!! If we're tsalking natural, in the wild the 'victim' would generally be able to get away, not get cornered in a paddock, and would probably be chucked out of the herd for whatever reason, or learn it pecking order. By keeping them in smaller spaces, a dominant horse can easil do a lot of damage. But it is just doing what comes naturally. Zapping it is not going to be good for its mental state I wouldn't think!
 
My goodness......i would be petrified to even try and use this method on a horse purely because of what damage/injuries the horse could do when panicking.
I dont know what my new horse would do but my previous horse an arab.....wouldnt live with another horse, he would attack anything else in his field (except humans). So the simple solution. Dont put anything in the field with him. Easy.
If i had shocked him he would have gone into panic overload, he was flighty at the best of times but to be shcoked by something around his neck, i would hate to think what he would have done. Probably galloped and charged around so much he would have probably fallen.
They are not like dogs, dogs generally when shocked stop dead and lie down.

Eeeek i would be too scared for my horse.
 
Equestrian92 said:
Well pretty obvious really! Unless they get mangled it the fencing they get zapped they run off...a collar which she says leave on for 2 or 3 minutes thats a long time to be zapping a horse dont you think!!!!! Must scare the hell out of the poor thing. Wrong, wrong, wrong!
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I did say "Just a thought" :p

Did I say that it was necessarily a good thing?

As I can't open the article I don't know what it said, I was talking generally. As I said, it depends ENTIRELY on the operator, it would be totally useless to leave the zap on for a length of time, I was equating it with a short shock like a fence.

My view would be separate the bugger, herd hierachy has to be in place, but outright aggression has to be stopped straight out before something nasty happens. If I have a horse that is aggressive, I move it on somewhere it fits in better, end of.
 
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