Oh no... Barefoot/unshod question RE taken hind shoes off my mare. *Puts on tin hat*

cptrayes said:
Yes you looked at every angle?

Did you get a mineral balance analysis of your grazing and each batch of forage?
Did you check your white bag labels and remove all food with molasses/wheat syrup/corn syrup in them?
Did you restrict grazing to night only in spring/summer/autumn and possibly muzzle as well?
Did you use boots and pads for a while to provide stimulation to build up the sole and heels?
Did you work the horse consistently on conformable surfaces to provide maximum stimulation to build up the sole and heels?
Did you build a well designed track system so that your horse could have maxiumum movement while not having access to too much grass?
Did you provide your horse with dry "turnout" in winter, so that movement could be kept up while not having the feet always soggy?

For some horses one of, some of, all of, or even more than those things are necessary for them to work well barefoot. You might not have wanted to do any of those things, and prefer to shoe, which is fine. But if you did not do those things, then you did not look at the problem from every angle. If you did all those things then I apologise for doubting you.
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I like your check list and interestingly, yes, I have done all those things as part of my basic horsecare over the years, not just with the objective of keeping them unshod, but with a holistic view to their health and well being. Each time we've moved to different grazing/environments, they react in different ways and looking at each horse, care is reassessed accordingly.
The only thing I haven't used on your list, is hoof boots. Its only very recently that the market has expanded in choice, and really don't like them. If I knew someone who used them for more than just a weekend plod, I might be won over.
The navicular mare is shod for different reasons, although since getting her, I have had her backs off and she adapted without problem.

The irony, is that I am not anti barefoot. I am anti extremism. I am anti making horse owners feel guilty for not being clever enough to manage barefoot. I am also dismayed at seeing hobbling, footy horses because their owners don't know enough to keep their horses comfortable unshod, but are blindly following the 'shoes off at all costs' mantra.

You do much to help inform people of how to manage horses without shoes and I think if the trend makes owners stop and think before slapping shoes on, then, thats got to be good.
For those who cannot keep horses without shoes after having considered all the options, they should not feel like second class owners. I do not believe that all horses can work as they are required to work without shoes. Its a bit like saying all horses can be kept in all environments without rugs. My pet hate is seeing fat horses in rugs, but if the owners have made an informed decision to rug for a particular reason, then I respect that.
 
"The irony, is that I am not anti barefoot. I am anti extremism"

The irony!!!!

That HAS to be quote of the week!
 
cptrayes said:
I don't have any problem with you shoeing if that's the case, but if so then I think it was far too early to say he could not cope without shoes.
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Have I missed the part where it is any of your business to have a problem with her shoeing?

Unless you're her instructor or trusted mentor, then surely it is entirely up to the individual as to whether she decides to shoe her own horse or not.:rolleyes:
 
horserider said:
So your definition is that barefoot owners are commited to keeping shoes off the horse and owners of unshod horses do it by luck rather than commitment ?
That is utter tosh. I am totally committed to every aspect of the horses in my care, but I won't follow an ideal when it conflicts with their well being, so if my horse is struggling after I've looked at the problem from every angle, then the shoes go on.
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I'm not really feeling the need to go around telling people their opinions are utter tosh. What is wrong with people on this forum?

Yes, I view 'barefoot' as a lifestyle choice, and 'unshod' as just being without shoes. I don't really care what you think of that, tbh.
 
xspiralx said:
Have I missed the part where it is any of your business to have a problem with her shoeing?

Unless you're her instructor or trusted mentor, then surely it is entirely up to the individual as to whether she decides to shoe her own horse or not.:rolleyes:
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I think more is being made of the phraseology here than anything else. If it's otherwise we may as well pack in the forum altogether.
 
Are we all just arguing for arguments sake here when in fact, we are mostly singing from the same hymnbook, just not on the same page quite yet...

I know it's a lot of fun to argue about what to call a horse what doesn't get steel bananas nailed into its foot, but we should work together and find a mutually consented word that describes the above. It seems we are an the whole intelligent people, mardy, but intelligent so we could just about do it ;)

Suggestions please! :D
 
horserider said:
I like your check list and interestingly, yes, I have done all those things as part of my basic horsecare over the years,#
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Fantastic, I really think that's great and that more owners should have that attitude. My response came from the fact that you are the very first of many many many people who have said "my horse just could not do it" who has actually tried all the things that might have helped and which would have sorted most horses out.

For the record, if mine could not do it without a grassless track system then I would, reluctantly, shoe because I am in a National Park where such a track would require, and be refused, planning consent.

horserider said:
not just with the objective of keeping them unshod, but with a holistic view to their health and well being.
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And do you know, all a barefooter has to do is say EXACTLY THIS, to be accused of suggesting that other people are abusing their animals if they do not do the same. Truly, we cannot win :(
 
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cptrayes said:
Have I missed the part where it is any of your business to have a problem with me having an opinion, especially when the OP herself did not :) ?
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Can I just say that cptrayes knows her(?) stuff, but maybe her bedside manner leaves a little to be desired.

After having been shot down in flames by cptrayes on one of these threads about barefoot/unshod horses, I took a a good look at what I was feeding my horse.
I have always strip grazed my mare, but never really looked at her hard feed.
My mare has been barefoot/unshod for the last 3 years and has always been a bit footy no matter what time of year.
cyptrayes has always maintained that ANY horse, no matter what it does, should be able to go barefoot/unshod.
With this in mind, I totally changed her feed and is now on Simple Systems (which contain no molased, wheat, etc) its pure lucerne. She is fed Total Eclipse as a balancer, which contains all the stuff needed for healthy hind gut flora etc.
I can honestly say now, I have a rock cruncher who has gone from tip toeing over stones and gravel, to going over the stoniest of ground.
 
Dirtymare said:
Can I just say that cptrayes knows her(?) stuff, but maybe her bedside manner leaves a little to be desired.

After having been shot down in flames by cptrayes on one of these threads about barefoot/unshod horses, I took a a good look at what I was feeding my horse.
I have always strip grazed my mare, but never really looked at her hard feed.
My mare has been barefoot/unshod for the last 3 years and has always been a bit footy no matter what time of year.
cyptrayes has always maintained that ANY horse, no matter what it does, should be able to go barefoot/unshod.
With this in mind, I totally changed her feed and is now on Simple Systems (which contain no molased, wheat, etc) its pure lucerne. She is fed Total Eclipse as a balancer, which contains all the stuff needed for healthy hind gut flora etc.
I can honestly say now, I have a rock cruncher who has gone from tip toeing over stones and gravel, to going over the stoniest of ground.
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Hehe, I only see cptrayes riled when she is frustrated or 'got at'.

Good on you for taking another look at your horses feed, glad you have got a fab result by the sound of it. I'm still struggling to get it right for one of mine.
 
Dirtymare said:
cyptrayes has always maintained that ANY horse, no matter what it does, should be able to go barefoot/unshod.
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THIS IS NOT TRUE


I posted this about a year ago on this forum:

I think there has finally been a big breakthrough in the barefoot/shoeing debate with a major horse monthly publishing an article that for the first time does not quote vets and/or farriers saying that barefoot is OK if your horse doesn't do much roadwork.

But the article makes me concerned for a lot of shod-horse owners out there because it does strongly imply that all horse owners could take off their horse's shoes and this simply isn't true. While I personally believe that most horses are capable, eventually, of a full workload with bare feet, there are many horse/owner/livery yard combinations where it won't work.

So while I am VERY against shoes where horses simply don't need them, (and there are thousands of horses in this country being shod when they don't need them), I'm also very against people who need their horse shod being made to feel guilty if they can't "do" the barefoot thing. So here are some pointers as to when you SHOULD have shoes on your horse.

I hope this will start a sensible debate with other barefoot devotees like me adding their advice, and we can show that we are not the mad ourwayistheonlyway nutters that many people want to think we are.

STUDS

If you are convinced you need studs you will need to shoe. There are boots that take studs but they are not legal for BE or BD. Many of us found that studs were unnecessary for jumping even up to Advanced Eventing but you will most likely lose marks on a slick dry grass dressage arena on hard ground without them.

GRASS

There is a very, very high proportion of barefoot horses who will feel stones in the spring summer and early autumn. This is actually very low grade laminitis. In most of those horses it can be controlled by removing them from grazing when grass sugars are high, late morning to early evening. In a smaller, but still significant, proportion a much greater restriction must be placed on sugar in grass and food.

If you simply can't restrict your horse's grazing like that, and you can't or don't want to use boots, or if you simply don't believe that your horse should have his grazing restricted, then you will need to shoe.

WORK

Many horses will cope with peaks and troughs of work barefoot, but some will not. So if you want to hack for four hours on Saturday, for example, your horse might not keep its foot condition well enough if he only pootles in an arena during the dark winter evenings. If so, you'll need to boot or shoe. Stony tracks and roads are no reason not to go barefoot, they cope brilliantly. But not unless they keep their conditioning, and some horses need more regular exposure than others to do that.

MINERALS

Mineral imbalances can be a nightmare. My own grazing, for example, is very high in manganese and iron. Until we knew that, my friends and I had trouble with abscesses and with insulin/laminitic issues. So we needed to investigate and found that copper and zinc are prevented from being taken up by manganese and iron. And seaweed supplementation, high in iron, was a VERY bad idea! Once we got that right by supplementing copper and zinc, abscesses stopped, cracks healed and our horses could tolerate more exposure to grass as well (copper has a role in regulating insulin, which is vital to digesting sugar). There are people on this forum and others who will help with this, but if your horse isn't "right" barefoot, and you can't find out what his imbalance is, or don't want to, you will need to shoe.

WET

Standing in a wet field all winter softens feet and some horses will not be able to cope barefoot unless they have a period each day in the dry. Unfortunately, some will also not grow foot fast enough if they stand still for more than half the hours in a day, and stabling overnight is not the best environment for them. If your horse is one of these, and you can't provide "dry turnout" (mine are in a barn, for example, others have partially covered and/or very well draining track systems) then you will need to shoe.

UNSUPPORTIVE FARRIER/VET/LIVERY

It can be very stressful to go against your farrier and/or vet in taking your horse barefoot. (Unfortunately, although there are more barefoot-aware farriers and vets every day, there are still plenty of farriers and vets telling owners that their horse won't manage when it is not true, as mine and many other barefoot horses demonstrate). Some livery yards can also be extremely hostile if your horse is at all footsore in the early days. If you can't face this, you'll need to shoe.

TRANSITION IS TOO PAINFUL

There are some horses which really struggle when the shoes first come off, and in rare cases this can last months. Those horses shouldn't be exposed to surfaces that they can't manage without protection, which can, to be honest, be a heck of a fuss and bother (booting up just to walk to the field, for example). If your horse is one of those and you can't cotton-wool him the way he would need, you'll have to leave the shoes on.

(Other than this transitioning issue, current foot quality has no bearing WHATSOEVER on whether a horse will work happily barefoot. The removal of the shoes, with a correct diet and work, improves foot quality beyond recognition within four months, and these are some of the very horses that will benefit most.)


I hope this helps those of you who are thinking about barefoot. Hopefully other people will add their advice too.
 
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This is the exchange where dirtymare suggested that I "shot her down in flames". I thought I was sympathising with an owner whose farrier did not know that grass related laminitis starts in the gut, but she didn't want to hear him criticised and took my comment as a criticism of her instead, which plainly it is not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrayes
Because this "footiness" is caused by gut bacteria* leaking into the bloodstream, and they will stay there affecting the horse even if I put shoes on and stop it showing. Boots are a better option for me if I have to protect his feet. That way I will still know what is going on in his bloodstream.

Originally Posted by Dirtymare
How does this work? (and I'm genuinly interested). I asked my farrier about this, he hadnt heard of this.

Originally Posted by cptrayes
Heaven help everyone dependant on farriers like this!! Your farrier does not know the basic mechanism of laminitis or its early symptoms. He should go back to farrier school for a refresher.

end quote



ps * this is incorrect, it is toxins from gut bacteria that leak, not the bacteria themselves.
 
Thanks Amandap, I've posted it as a new thread since we have so many new people on the forum and we are getting the "extremist" arguments again.
 
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