Oh no, laminitis! Advice please

brucea said:
Ok Sarah - sorry come to this late

Hope your little mite is improving. I've 2 lamintics, one chronic, both sound and happy.

You're doing the right things - off he grass, soaked hay (soak for a couple of hours if you can) and provide a conformant surface - shavings is fine, but I prefer straw providing they don't hog into it. Straw doesn't pack in the feet the same way as shavings, and doesn't dry them like shavings do

Diet wise - soaked hay is OK for a short time but at the moment the nutritional needs will be quite high and you need tro make sure there is adequate mineral and vitamin intake or you'll have a malnourished and laminitic pony if you see what I mean.

We feed an unmolassed chaff (not Hi Fi as it has things like fungal and mould inhibitors, Pure do a good one), we use a sprinkle of high fibre cubes of the lowest sugar/starch we can find, linseed meal.

We make up our own mineral and vit mix, but you cna get one off the shelf from Forage Plus or Pro Earth or Equimins Meta Balance Advance that has everything you need in it - especially magnesium and so on.

I trust she is not shod? You may well just get away with this one, and she may pick up after a week to 10 days, but if not you are going to have to think about a plan for managing a laminitic - and turning back out on to grass is not a plan. Look for a rough area, little grass that you cna use.

Shetlands eh? Just what my one would have done!
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Thank you for your reply - very helpful. I will look on the pure feed website and try to get something ordered (don't think we have a stockist round here - not that I've ever looked for this mind you!).

Because she's so porky I could see this coming but just haven't been able to stop it, despite trying :( - I've even had to not allow my little girl to treat her pony with a little equi-bite treat or slither of carrot which is hard when she doesn't understand why she can give them to the others! :rolleyes:

No, no shoes so at least that's not something else to worry about! ;)

She's the greediest pony we've had in years, in fact scratch that, she's the greediest pony we've ever had! She would most definitely pig out on the straw!
 
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'brucea' the best bedding types for laminitics are the ones that pack the feet out as they support the sole! i dont know any vet that would suggest straw as a bed for a laminitic
that is why pads are used in moderate to severe cases!
sand is one of the best types of bed for this very reason-but it not easy to work with in a stable enviroment
also pea shingle is a good bed for them too although i have never used it i think its palerider on here who has some good suggestions but i may be wrong

does anyone have any different views on this? i would be interested as the straw bed suggestion goes against everything that 30+ years with horses has taught me
 
All sorts of healthy things you can treat a laminitic with - try nuts, they will do her good!

And a bucket of black tea can help - it's an insulin sensitiser.

It's tough feeding laminitics - getting enough nutrition into them when keeping the food value down.

I make up a chaff from the Pure Oat Straw chaff, and the Timothy chaff from Hayleys. About 3:1, a few nuts in there and it's appealing. Use that as the base for the other things.

If you can get some mineral supplementation going it will help over the next few weeks.
 
jools1234 said:
'brucea' the best bedding types for laminitics are the ones that pack the feet out as they support the sole! i dont know any vet that would suggest straw as a bed for a laminitic
that is why pads are used in moderate to severe cases!
sand is one of the best types of bed for this very reason-but it not easy to work with in a stable enviroment
also pea shingle is a good bed for them too although i have never used it i think its palerider on here who has some good suggestions but i may be wrong

does anyone have any different views on this? i would be interested as the straw bed suggestion goes against everything that 30+ years with horses has taught me
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No it's not. I have 2 laminitics and they were less comfortable on the shavings bed than they were on straw. Sand is also sometimes not the most comfortable surface for them as it packs into the soles. Pea gravel is fantastic, but not at this stage, not until they are moving around a bit comfortably
 
Sarah1 said:
I can imagine! You have my sympathies because my 9hh shetland is proving difficult enough...:)
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That said, I seem to have it cracked... for now... moving to a yard with unfertilised pasture has been an absolute godsend... and against my better judgement, using a muzzle on his days off or when he starts to look slightly rounder than I'd like has been invaluable ;)

It's all about trial and error.. sometimes trialing things we'd really rather not but it's all for the benefit of the horse at the end of the day :)
 
brucea said:
No it's not. I have 2 laminitics and they were less comfortable on the shavings bed than they were on straw. Sand is also sometimes not the most comfortable surface for them as it packs into the soles. Pea gravel is fantastic, but not at this stage, not until they are moving around a bit comfortably
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which part of my text does 'no it is not' refer too?

a straw bed moves around too easily exposing what ever surface is underneath-most vets suggest shavings as it dry, clean, not usually eaten and easy to get. when pushed last year by an owner (of a non responsive laminitic) and myself 3 vets all said if we could get it sand would be best we never managed to get it and the pony is no longer with us but thats a different story
 
CBFan said:
That said, I seem to have it cracked...
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Brilliant! :) I really hope I can say the same in a few weeks/months time!

moving to a yard with unfertilised pasture has been an absolute godsend... and against my better judgement, using a muzzle on his days off or when he starts to look slightly rounder than I'd like has been invaluable
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I wasn't sure that she could get to the grass with the muzzle on until I found out she'd been getting to the apples! But if she can eat one of those then I guess she can get to the grass!!!!!! Our pasture isn't ferilised either - I think any one of ours, with the exception of the ex-racer would struggle if it were as they're all fairly good doers! :D
 
brucea said:
Sorry, I should add that the "big" shavings like the BedMax seem to be a lot better - but the finer stuff not quite so good.
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on this i agree but i have been told that it is due to the bigger shavings have a lower dust content so when the horse is lying down (often for long periods) the likelyhood of damage to the lungs is reduced
 
Hi, shavings bed to the door about a foot deep, don't walk her, get vet out, soak hay for at least 12-24 hours and double net so it lasts longer.
Hi-fi lite was fine for my lami as was happy hoof. It depends on the horse but fast fibre has nothing in it do that will be a good thing to give her when vet gives bute(my lami stopped ratting his metformin in his happy hoof and now has fast fibre)

With regards to the pulses and hot feet my lami didn't have any of these until three/four days after he was lame so they arent a solid indicator.
The shifting of weight on feet is. I agree with bloods for cushings and ems.
 
To be honest ANY bedding is better than nothing. I have bedded laminitics on Straw and it has been perfect from a cushioning perspective - nice deep bed whatever the bedding. The only issue I have with straw is the edibility. not ideal when you are trying to restrict the diet!!!

Sarah, yes she sounds like quite a clever pony!! My boy tried the poor starved pony routine initially but he quickly learnt how it worked... ***touch wood*** he hasn't worked out how to get it off yet!! ;) If he does, I have a cunning plan!!!
 
jools1234 said:
'brucea' the best bedding types for laminitics are the ones that pack the feet out as they support the sole! i dont know any vet that would suggest straw as a bed for a laminitic
that is why pads are used in moderate to severe cases!
sand is one of the best types of bed for this very reason-but it not easy to work with in a stable enviroment
also pea shingle is a good bed for them too although i have never used it i think its palerider on here who has some good suggestions but i may be wrong

does anyone have any different views on this? i would be interested as the straw bed suggestion goes against everything that 30+ years with horses has taught me
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I agree. Straw beds are a no no for laminitics. They need shavings or broken down wood pellets. Personally, I use the sand turnout for laminitis in the summer when everything is out 24/7 and the horse is less stressed being next to the others and sand is an even better support for the feet than shavings or similar. I too have heard that pea gravel is good too.
 
Some ponies are uber-sensitive to getting pottery on the slightest grass. I have 2 who've had laminitis, one got it years ago but he was kept slim and fit so vet felt it was concussive-caused and my shetland went down with it while out on loan (was so mad!). The first pony had his laminitis VERY seriously, took an entire year of corrective shoeing (horrifically expensive!) to come right. Whereas the shetland, only had a light bout of laminitis yet she's the one who is most sensitive. The pony, who also has cushings, I can keep in a small paddock all summer and he's sound as can be, whereas the shetland cant cope with much grass at all - I literally let her into his paddock for 20 mins a day, otherwise she's in a hardcored yard with nothing but hay to eat. This is the only way to keep her lami-free. So it really depends on the horse as to how you maintain it. Long term, yours might be better off the grass completely if you can do that (in a yard or in a sand school or something, not stabled (once sound) as this limits movement and you need the pony to burn calories!), Id certainly do this until its lost a lot of weight.
 
Oh I forgot.....the one thing you can feed her in abundance is wilted nettles (we still have ample growing about these parts!).
Just chop a load at the base, leave for an hour to kill the sting, and feed. They are full of anti-oxidants and best of all free!
 
How is your horse doing tonight, any change having been in? My mare has suffered with laminitis for over 10 years and it is an awful problem. Bute is wonderful for making the horse feel a little better and I have found that feeding 'Safe and Sound' gives them some nutrients as well as the soaked hay. A deep bed is essential but as I have said before laminitis can be caused by so many factors that finding the cause for your horse is essential. My mare has a bout when she is stressed in any way and her biggest stress factor is being kept in her stable so I have a woodchip area that she can walk about on which keeps her sound. Good luck with her and don't despair it is controlable once you find what triggers her bouts.
 
Hi Crugeran Celt! She's not much better to be honest, I've started her on the bute today though so hopefully we will start seeing signs of improvement soon.
I've found her a good scrubby area though where she can still be with her friends!
It's the worst timing as we're away this weekend so I'm leaving her in my sisters care (had horses 30 years), I'll just tell her though to ring the vet even if she thinks she might be even a little bit worse, better a bill than the alternative. Will be worried about her all weekend though...
 
In addition to all the excellent advice given, we also feed half a teaspoon of ground cinnamon morning and evening which is thought to be beneficial if the horse/Pony is experiencing insulin resistance. It may be coincidence but out little welshie recovered very quickly from the last bout of lami and I daren't stop feeding it now! I buy it off eBay in bulk and it is not expensive.
 
It's the underlying cause needs establishing and in the meanwhile, instate absolute confinement and conservative but regular feeding.

How old is the pony?

The more I hear, the less I am thinking it's 'simple' grass laminitis. These late season onsets I am convinced are largely related to EMS and Cushing's.

For those unaccustomed to dealing with laminitis, calling out a vet is normally the first thing to do.after getting the animal confined on a deep (and total) shavings bed. Feed only soaked hay or a soaked hay/straw mix to keep the gut moving, although I think that on occasions, this sudden and total diet and management change might also compound matters. However, once pony is as comfortable as possible, and the vet has been or the laminitis lockdown routine is in place, get on the internet and begin researching the latest in management, feeding and medication. The veterinary forum on here is as good a place as any to begin (i've already suggested a sticky but so far there is none) and the Yahoo groups 'themetabolichorse' is simply unbeatable for advice on the subject.

Everything I have read above is all sound (except the straw bed :confused: ) but not enough mention is made of EMS and PPID. The :p :o :rolleyes: type smileys following comments about horses 'being a little bit fat' like fat isn't anything but wobbliness and a bit of a nuisance, just make me want to cry TBH.

Fat is a hormone secreting organ, doing silent, toxic damage which eventually the body fails to sustain a successful defence against. Genetic predisposition to early onset (or an unusually rapid succumbing to these effects) only serves to blur the boundaries and timescales so the usual rules don't apply.

Good luck OP. Be prepared for the long haul.
 
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I am sure now she is having bute she will at least be a little more comfortable but I can understand your worry. There are so many sad endings posted on here about a laminitic horse but as I have said mine is 19 years old and had her first bout at the age of 5 so it has been a long haul but she has been clear now for about 4 years with careful managment and realising that her bouts were caused through stress not over eating!. Thats not to say that the situation can't be compounded by having an overweight horse! Keep us posted on her progress please and I am sure now you have spotted the problem and have taken action she will improve. Good luck.
 
Brighteyes - the pony is 9 yes old, we've had her all of 6 weeks & I have been working hard to try to shift some of her weight so please don't suggest that I think her weight is 'a bit of a nuisance'. I am well aware of the implications.
I have spoken with my vet who has advised a course of treatment, that I am on board with, and my vet is happy for me to carry on with this, if there is no improvement in 5 days then they will visit (which they will be doing anyway for routine injections on the yard).
Pony has been in a small orchard with half a dozen sheep and another pony but since the sheep were moved we have tried to limit her intake, my concern was that she would be getting a lot of the new juicy shoots that the sheep had been eating. I found out that even with a muzzle on the pony had managed to eat some of the apples that had dropped. She was moved immediately.
She is now in a stable & has been since Tuesday, with a lovely deep shavings bed & soaked hay & a tiny, tiny handful of lami approved food with bute & a vit & min supplement in it - as per my vets advice.
For anyone that's interested I actually noticed a difference today so fingers crossed she's on the mend!
 
Brief update - little pony has been kept in since last week and the vets advice was followed to the letter, pony was totally sound, even pulling to get out of the stable & happily trotting to her feed on the yard, so have taken her off the bute and vet is happy for her to go back out on a starvation paddock at the weekend if she's still moving as well :)
She looks, to me, to be a fair bit slimmer though she does still have some to lose.
Vet has also said she's now happy for me to replace some of her hay with happy hoof as I was concerned that we'd have issues with her having nothing in her gut as she really doesn't like the soaked hay & hasn't eaten much of it at all (just about the only thing she won't eat!).
Vet says I caught it early & did everything right & she even checked out the area I was going to fence off for Chubbs & was more than happy with the little bit she'll be grazing :)
Relieved is not the word! :D
 
Great to hear she's improving :) The only thing I would say (god I sound like the voice of doom all the time - sorry!) is that Happy Hoof has been no good for some laminitics, I'd go for fast fibre or a mollasses free chaff.
 
touchstone said:
Great to hear she's improving :) The only thing I would say (god I sound like the voice of doom all the time - sorry!) is that Happy Hoof has been no good for some laminitics, I'd go for fast fibre or a mollasses free chaff.
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Thank you :)

I'm a little bit confused though as to why the vet would say it was ok to give Happy Hoof if it's not really suitable? :confused:
Trying to get through to Simple Systems - some of their products sound ideal :)
 
I do feed a little Healthy Hooves (similar to Happy Hoof) to my lami girl but only a very small scoop as a treat, otherwise she gets hifilite (I know also not ideal) and soaked hay and oat straw. plus vit/min supp and magnesium oxide (very good for lami prone horses).

I think the reason vet would suggest it is that it is Laminitis trust approved. The problem is that although only ok foods are approved, there is a payment involved for approval. So there are feeds that are better for lami horses out there, but because they havent paid the ££ to lami trust they arent allowed to have the stamp.

I would think the objections to HH might be if it contains alfalfa (which is a good nutritional balance with the chopped straw in the bag but which some think is not good for lami horses, also if there are mould inhibitor etc chemicals in it). Also it is a bit higher energy than the lite chaffs. It has biotin in it but apparently healthy horses make their own in abundance.

Allen and Pages Fast fibre is supposed to be the best for lami horses, and simple systems have some suitable stuff too.
 
Great news that she is on the mend, I feed mine 'safe and sound' all yeart round as it has minerals and vitamins added for laminitics and hay in the winter, NO HAYLAGE. Good luck hope her improvment continues and now you have seen the symptoms once you will spot it really early on if it happens again.
 
That is great news! I agree about the happy hoof. Unfortunately not all vets are totally clued up on feeding - not helped by feed companies not being totally honest at first glance about what is in their products.

Graze on do a nice grass & straw mix chaff called gold blend which may be worth you trying to get your hands on. it is like hi-fi lite except it is TOTALLY unmollassed and is made with grass and Staw instead of Alfa-alfa.

You might also find it is safe to feed a little unsoaked hay now but it would be worth you weighing carefully and double netting it to slow her down...
 
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