OK, advice for nervouse agressive collie who is now 5

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mcrobbiena

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Hi, I have been spying on this dogs page for a while now and it looks like there are some really knowledgable bright sparks. This is a last resort (no offence meant, just we have tried a few things and are running out of ideas)
I have a 5 year old rescue collie. He s a gorgeous boy proper picture book looking and we will never send him back we have had him 2 and a half years now. He has 2 big problems.
Background: When we got him we were told he showed slight nervouse aggression towards men but has come on leaps and bounds and is now comfortable once he knows them. He is fine with horses. He was abandoned by a champion sheepdog trial trainer who went bankrupt and left with 3 other collies. he was still entire. They got him, castrated him and he was with them for 6 months.
Since we have had him 3 different people have stopped us to say they had him for a couple of weeks but it didn't work out but they are pleased to see he has a forever home. This must have been awful for him.
Problems: He chases and snaps at horses. We keep him on a lead now because if you ask him to lie down and stay he sneaks up and snaps then buggers off and won't listen. Any tips??

He cannot abide my boyfriend he is now OK with dad but fine with my brother and total strange men, loves them but he freaks with BF. He now will come up when he asks him too very nervously growling then sits and is happy to be stroked and nudges for then, then he will freak and scoot off for no apparent reason. The other night they were lying in front of the fire he was being stroked(the dog) and looked sooo content, he then walked to his heel out the back door and ran away It took ages for me to get him back, Bf drove away then I called him and he came back-he is clever. What can we do, any ideas> his life would be much better as BF would take him out on the quad round the sheep and take him for long walks and would really like to but can't risk him freaking out.

Sorry its long wanted to give as much info as I could.Thanks in advance for even reading this!
 
Thank you very much-it is very informative. We did obediance and agility with a very good trainer whos daughter runs the rescue place we got him from, but the classes were so big and she didn't have time to train privatly or get to the "nitty gritty" problems. To be fair to him he is not a bad dog and we can live fine the way things are but he is eager to learn and he looks like he wants to be happy with bf, he just can't get over something. With the horses it is just his "collie attitude" again we can work around this I was just curiouse if anyone had had a similair situation and managed to get over the quirks. We understand he has had an awful start to life which is why we have been as patient as we can and given him time to realise he is with us forever and hopefully trusts us enough. I am just surprised he still won't get on with my bf who is very good with him.I don't want to "waste" the dog or let him get away with things that can be trained out of him, but I don't want to upset him.
I will try and get in contact with a trainer for 1 to 1 lessons. he picks things up really quickly and loves to learn.
 
I think 1 to 1 with a good trainer could really help. Maybe your bf could handle him once you've had the first couple of assessment lessons to help them build a bit more of a bond? Might be worth asking the trainer about this?

Have a look here, I just found it - someone might be able to recommend a good local trainer that is used to Collies.
http://collienet.forumotion.com/c1-collienet-forum

:)
 
Some Collies can show nervous traits which may be exacerbated by their instinctive behaviours.I wonder if he has been treated badly by a male,hence his anxiety around men.I do not think there is any quick fix cures,just lots of patience with consistent training and handling.Nipping the horses fetlocks is probably traced to his herding instinct.My Collie used to have the impulse to chase cars.Consequently I spent time with him on a lead by the road repeating "leave it" every time he tried to chase a car.Eventually he got the message and has never tried this since,and he's now 7 1/2.He did nip my daughters Welsh Section D when he was young,and when she kicked him,causing him to loose some teeth he never tried that again.He is trustworthy around the horses,and other animals,including little creatures that other breeds may want to eat.Sounds like you need to train your Collie with positive reinforcement as he sounds quite insecure and probably won't tolerate negative reinforcement.Best of luck and well done for giving this lovely dog a good home.
 
My nutter collie snaps at the horses heels - does horses with me twice a day (godsend in the dark down the yard on my own) and comes out on hacks with me for miles. I even spoke to the RSPCA about his behaviour (he was a rescue dog at 7 months) and was told it would be very hard if not impossible to stop him doing it - he is now 11 years old - as mad as ever and is missing 4 teeth that have been kicked out - he wont learn but loves coming to the horses and sees it as his job and would rather be doing his work minus the teeth than kept away from animals (also tried to round up next doors 3 dogs rather than playing with them) !

Regarding agression - no one except my OH and self can even stroke him as he growls and bears teeth (has never bitten anyone or even attempted) this is nervous aggression and he just cant cope with people - if anyone looks at him or tries to pay him attention (other than us) he runs off and jumps in the air snapping at the light !!

All over nutter but great to have around and very loving to us (unless tired and then grumps us too haha)
 
Just thinking out loud here and I am new to borders myself, but the fact that he was bred and brought up as a working dog may have something to do with him struggling to live as a pet dog in the home?

Another thought - why not let your BF take the dog out with the quad and let him out on the farm, seeing as this is what he has been used for, he might love every minute of it and get to like your BF - there is a saying that "its not who feeds a dog but who takes him out" and this is so very true. Obviously not if it could lead to a dangerous situation of course.

Many years ago my father came home with a GSD that he rescued from a family he visited. Poor dog was a nervous, skinny wreck. We should have changed her name actually on hindsight because as soon as you called her she would run a mile, then come back and hide in the perimeter of the garden. Anyway she soon settled and became "normal" but we would never, ever trust her with small children and even years and years on you could be out on a lovely walk and very occassionally, for absolutely no reason (that we could ever think of) she would scarper, gone in a flash but everytime you would find her cowering by the LandRover - so poor dog never really ever got whatever it was out of her system.

I think your dogs is incredibly lucky to have landed up with you and it sounds as if you have done wonders with him so far. You don't mention how long BF has been on the scene? Is he relatively new/did the dog arrive before him? My dogs are very jealous of my OH when he comes round, not in an agressive way but they seem to constantly demand attention when he's here - its a pain in the arse!
 
ditto cavecanem but just wanted to add - I have had many BC's, currently have 5 and they are all working bred, as in parents are world trials champions. Every one I have had has been completely different but I have to say there are some that are wired a certain way and wont ever be totally cured or changed. The nipping at heels and breaking a stay to go after the horses can certainly be sorted but some are just not 'people dogs'. The worst thing you can do is try to force the issue, he isnt being aggressive by the sounds of things? He has only growled and freaked and run away? I have one that is only 100% happy with me is very wary of strangers, I guess what Im trying to say is that when taking on a dog like this you sometimes have to accept that they are always going to have certain traits within them and it is our great responsibility to manage them appropriately so that they arent ever in a position of feeling threatened or in a position to get themselves into trouble. Good luck with your lad, main thing to remember is not to pressure him or try to force him to interact with someone, much better to ignore him.
 
I expect I will be shot down in flames, but Monty came to us with a reputation for being aggressive. We soon sussed that it was nervous aggression. I have used positive reinforcement and it has paid off really well. He was nervous of people and showed it by growling. We approached this by ignoring it and getting people to just ignore him when he was like that. We never forced the issue of coming for a fuss but as soon as he did approach happily and when he was quiet we gave loads of praise. At first he was stunned as he didn't seem to even know what praise was.
He has loads of exercise and flyball training which has really helped in his socialisation skills.
I may have missed it, but how long have you had your dog? It has taken us a year to get to where we are now.
In fact only today I was out with a friend and her 6 dogs and she commented on how much Monty has improved. He was having a great time playing with her younger dog, racing along etc and he was absolutely no problem with her 3 month BC puppy whom he had never met before.
 
Thankyou everyone! I emailed the lady who wrote the article and she said some really interesting stuff (that made me DUH! so obviouse now I think about it) BF has been on the scene since we got him since the first day he arrived but he has always looked at me as his safest option. I know it doesn't help the house is quite busy but I can't really chuck my parents out of their house...!He is actially happiest when we have a full house with visitors, maybe he likes a herd?!Anyway, the lady said he comes up to bf because he is being obediant and showing signs that he wants stroked because he is grovelling, not because he wants to...poor BF!! She said to keep him away from the horses but as someone else said he sees it as his job, he gets all wound up at horsey time, he knows when we go out to feed, turn out etc so I don't know how best to go about that but she said she will put me in touch with a trainer. As for BF taking him out on quad he panicks and we are worried he will be fine then just leap off the back and run off, or if he had a hold of him it may cause more stress ( he hates being held by his collar even by me he cowars down licks his lips etc just very nervous)
I have made hm sound really awful, he has made HUGE progress since the first day, we got him home and he turned on us in the car and wouldn't come out so I just sat with my back to him on the edge of the boot and waited for him to start coming towards me took around an hour. He is a really nice dog to have, very affectionate and very obediant when he isnt in a frenzy. Hopefully we can make that bit more progress we have had him 2 and half years now which sounds a long time but since his start seems to have been so bad we wanted to get the basics first and sort out "issues" once he knows he isn't going to be abandoned again.The lady also said not to tie him up anywhere round the horses as this may scare him more and don't ask him to lie doown as he will be in a vulnerable position, so the person who said they said "leave it" I will nab that commant and hope he understands it. She also said collies need alot of quiet time as they are thinkers and are used to working and then going to their shed or the house for a rest and then back out to work. Sorry it is long and thankyou all for your help it is very much appreciated by both of us (me and Flick!):)
 
he hates being held by his collar even by me he cowars down licks his lips etc just very nervous)


This is just how Monty was. My belief is that he had been "scruffed" such a lot. Some trainers think this is the way to treat aggression! It certainly isn't for Monty, it just made him more scared.
He also showed real signs of being scared when he vomits or the like. I think he was really told off all the time for "making a mess"
This is why I am really working hard on the positive reinforcement and not putting him any "forced" situations.
 
You might find a house line to be a real benefit, it's a light, short line that attaches to the collar and can be left trailing. Will mean you don't have to take hold of his collar at all.:)
 
Loads of good advice on here already and you are clearly proactive and going to help your boy get sorted.

My collie was guilty of going 'round the back of horses although I managed to stop her ever nipping. I trained her to "go ahead" so that she walked in front of us. She saw this as a job and led the way to and from the field. I started the "go ahead" training away from horses and other distractions and transferred it over.

I am glad someone has talked about collies needing time out too. They like a space to hide and reflect on life before tackling the world again. Don't push the BF onto the dog let the dog come to him, he will in time realise he's a safe person to be around.

Too many collies have a nervous reaction around the collar and head area. I think some old school trainers like to shake dogs from the scruff of their neck as puppies as punishment. I believe the thinking on this is that this is what bitches do. I believe in reward based training and don't think we have the instinct or timing to exactly replicate bitches so we shouldn't!
 
He is exactly like our pointer (kept by me) because he was the most aggressive dog I had ever come across bar non and it is fear aggression which is by far one of the worst to deal with/solve (and I have dealt with alot of dog aggression) he really did shock me, but he is also funnily enough the most affectionate dog you would could ever come across (well for some people);), he is a very insecure dog and can literlly come across as a jekyl and hyde type personality. I know his background so I know exactly how/why he ended up this way. Partly that he is a very clever/high energy sensitive dog whos needs where never met amongst some torment.

He is now near enough a normal dog, he also does/did the whole (grovelling) thing, so indeed the woman is probably correct re the behaviour, it was like he wanted the attention but then suddenly felt very threatened when it was given, we ignore the demand for attention/grovelling and would leave him to go back off and lie down, we would then give affection on our terms then literally withdraw it and ignore attempts at further attention, the growling would equal= withdrawel of attention immediatley. We spend more time engaging in things he did like and made him come out of himself (exercise/dancing (he loves you to dance with him) don't ask:o and ball play/mess around time in the garden (not on walks) he likes to hunt and will not entertain a toy on walks, nor is he food orientated.
Funnily enough the aggression was never seen outside only inside the house, it's almost like he was a changed dog outside (but the torment happened inside and his puppy hood was spend him being locked in a room because asoon as his previous owner encountered recall issues, they decided never to walk him again:rolleyes:.
He is the most well behaved dog in every other way (his recall) was non existent (this took alot of hard work) but is now 100%, I would never rehome him after getting this far with him, as I worried he could very easily slip back into his old ways.

We would spend more time engaging in these more stimulating exercises I mention (not so much of the dancing):D than lavishing him with affection.
He also likes quiet time (has his little cubby holes) where he feels most secure, basically he is left to his own devices and never forced, but he will now frequently come for attention and cuddles, sometimes I give it and sometimes I ignore .
 
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Also a crate might work well if you don't have one - put a bed in it and a blanket over it, and put it somewhere nice and quiet so it becomes his safe little den where he can take himself off to when it all gets a bit much.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Cayla and her amazing dancing dog, that has a certain ring to it, a circus ring perhaps.:D
Click to expand...

I have piccies of him dancing with me sister:D:D
You have to start to dance then say but, but , but, but, buddy buddy but but in a singey voice:o:o:D and he starts to wriggle his arse and jumps up for you to get his front paws and he dances around (he loves this):D:D
Im sure Vizzy said flora like this too.....its a HPR thing....surely:o

Arron dances with him alot...I don't:p I cannot dance:D:D
 
CAYLA said:
I have piccies of him dancing with me sister:D:D
You have to start to dance then say but, but , but, but, buddy buddy but but in a singey voice:o:o:D and he starts to wriggle his arse and jumps up for you to get his front paws and he dances around (he loves this):D:D
Im sure Vizzy said flora like this too.....its a HPR thing....surely:o

Arron dances with him alot...I don't:p I cannot dance:D:D
Click to expand...

Must see those photos, most people go clubbing, I suppose as you dont dance poor Arron has to make do with the dog.:D

I do sympathise I dont dance either, must have a word with Vizzy dont think Flora will be dancing tonight theyve been shooting today.
 
What a fantastic thread :D

Someone pops on for advice and everyone gives their two penneth worth, advice taken and I am absolutely convinced the OP will be acting on it - result :D

Please keep us updated on how you get on with Flick :D (and for God's sake show us some pictures of him! ;) )
 
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