brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
What about this article? Just when you think you 'get' it all, someone comes along with the 25th angle on it 
OK Barefooters...
- Thread starter brighteyes
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Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I know a summary is supposed to be a condensed version of the entire paper, but this is like condensing a mile wide cloud in to a thimble.What about this article? Just when you think you 'get' it all, someone comes along with the 25th angle on it
"There were a total of 377 gross foot abnormalities identified in 100 left forefeet", what do we deduce from that?
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MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
Google will give you a lot of information on research and observations carried out on these feral horses.
Apart from that, I'm saying nothing,its not worth the hassle.
Apart from that, I'm saying nothing,its not worth the hassle.
canteron
Well-Known Member
I have 2 barefoot horses and 1 shod so not against it but ...
The feral horse is a very different animal from our horse foot wise? If their feet don't stand up to a tough life they die and therefore don't breed - half the time the horses in this country without good feet and used as brood mares and therefore purposefully bred from. Also, they tend to be fit and don't have a great lump of a human stuck on top of them adding to the pressures on their feet.
So interesting, but I still say that barefoot suits some horses not others?!
The feral horse is a very different animal from our horse foot wise? If their feet don't stand up to a tough life they die and therefore don't breed - half the time the horses in this country without good feet and used as brood mares and therefore purposefully bred from. Also, they tend to be fit and don't have a great lump of a human stuck on top of them adding to the pressures on their feet.
So interesting, but I still say that barefoot suits some horses not others?!
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
Ditto MrsD123 - this is such a short summary that it's hard to take anything from it. There is also nothing in the summary that enlightens the read on the effects of diet, only to the types of ground the horses are travelling on.
Also, in the intro paragraph it refers to a barefoot trim with "a tendency towards excessive removal of the bearing border of the distal hoof wall and sculpturing the foot in the shape of the popular hoof model". This sounds like it is a response to the very extreme trimming method (the name escapes me) that has been regularly referred to welfare groups and generally (I hope) is no longer used.
Although it's "interesting" to see how feral horses' feet respond to environmental stimuli, the only truly relevant study would be on domestic horses and there is nothing available currently, I'm not sure how a scientist would go about it either. That leaves us with the empirical knowledge from the likes of Rockley Farm and other barefoot trimmers and rehabs.
Also, in the intro paragraph it refers to a barefoot trim with "a tendency towards excessive removal of the bearing border of the distal hoof wall and sculpturing the foot in the shape of the popular hoof model". This sounds like it is a response to the very extreme trimming method (the name escapes me) that has been regularly referred to welfare groups and generally (I hope) is no longer used.
Although it's "interesting" to see how feral horses' feet respond to environmental stimuli, the only truly relevant study would be on domestic horses and there is nothing available currently, I'm not sure how a scientist would go about it either. That leaves us with the empirical knowledge from the likes of Rockley Farm and other barefoot trimmers and rehabs.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
I didn't even know feral horses can get grass laminitis 
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
I think the 'domestic' horse is so far removed from and purposely altered (with very short sight IMO) to do what we want it to, it is practically incomparable to the feral horse it was originally descended from. Today's feral horses have also been influenced by infiltration from man-made horses released or escaped and as such can't be counted as the model to compare to.
And I agree with everything else you have said on top.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The synopsis says this:
I know of no trimming organisation which trains its trimmers to sculpt (meaning cut) any foot into a model of an ideal shape except Strasser, which is widely criticized by almost all barefooters and has been the subject of two justified and successful animal cruelty prosecutions in the UK
All the other organisations train trimmers to read the foot and trim, if trimming is even necessary, to meet the needs of a SOUND domestic horse not a FERAL horse.
In the light of that, the rest of the research is, for me, irrelevant and I will not be reading it.
I did read the synopsis with some amusement. Horses that eat too much get laminitis. Wow, what a revelation. Horses whose feet are always on soft surfaces get flare and cracked feet if not trimmed. Well I never! Horses who stamp around too much on too hard surfaces get calcification of the cartilage - well all the more reason not to add to the concussion with shoes then, eh?
What a waste of time and money. What we need is research into why barefoot rehabs have four times the success rate of traditional drug and bar-shoe treatment of lameness in the navicular spectrum. Not more people staring at wild horse feet!
I know of no trimming organisation which trains its trimmers to sculpt (meaning cut) any foot into a model of an ideal shape except Strasser, which is widely criticized by almost all barefooters and has been the subject of two justified and successful animal cruelty prosecutions in the UK
All the other organisations train trimmers to read the foot and trim, if trimming is even necessary, to meet the needs of a SOUND domestic horse not a FERAL horse.
In the light of that, the rest of the research is, for me, irrelevant and I will not be reading it.
I did read the synopsis with some amusement. Horses that eat too much get laminitis. Wow, what a revelation. Horses whose feet are always on soft surfaces get flare and cracked feet if not trimmed. Well I never! Horses who stamp around too much on too hard surfaces get calcification of the cartilage - well all the more reason not to add to the concussion with shoes then, eh?
What a waste of time and money. What we need is research into why barefoot rehabs have four times the success rate of traditional drug and bar-shoe treatment of lameness in the navicular spectrum. Not more people staring at wild horse feet!
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Clava
Well-Known Member
Is this the same report that looked at hooves cut off dead horses taking no account of whether the hooves were functioning and sound but perhaps not in the "perfect" shape? Abnormalities could have been deviations in the process of self trimming or balancing an injury higher up the leg. It seems a rather pointless waste of energy to me.
spookypony
Well-Known Member
cptrayes, I think you may have the wrong end of the stick on this one! Brian Hampson's research is not into wild horses from which domesticated horses are descended, but into feral horses which are themselves descended from domesticated horses. I haven't read this brief summary, but I have attended a day-long seminar given by him last year on the details of this research, and it is fascinating!
In a nutshell, he was studying six genetically-indistinguishable populations of horses living in very different environments, comparing their living conditions to their hoof conditions. The laminitics, IIRC correctly, were predominantly in two populations: a group of horses living in very lush conditions in New Zealand, and in a population inhabiting a flood valley, during a time of lush growth following flooding (every 10 years or so?).
I believe the trimming model to which he is referring is indeed the Strasser model. His own horses are barefoot, from what I know, but he's making the point that those hooves which corresponded most closely to an "ideal" shape were not necessarily found in the same population as those hooves with the least pathologies. To generalise the findings of a very complicated study, a horse will grow and wear the most appropriate hoof shape for itself and its living conditions...which seems like a trivial conclusion, but that's what happens when you generalise! The thing to do would be to read the whole study in detail as it is published; I think you would find it very interesting!
In a nutshell, he was studying six genetically-indistinguishable populations of horses living in very different environments, comparing their living conditions to their hoof conditions. The laminitics, IIRC correctly, were predominantly in two populations: a group of horses living in very lush conditions in New Zealand, and in a population inhabiting a flood valley, during a time of lush growth following flooding (every 10 years or so?).
I believe the trimming model to which he is referring is indeed the Strasser model. His own horses are barefoot, from what I know, but he's making the point that those hooves which corresponded most closely to an "ideal" shape were not necessarily found in the same population as those hooves with the least pathologies. To generalise the findings of a very complicated study, a horse will grow and wear the most appropriate hoof shape for itself and its living conditions...which seems like a trivial conclusion, but that's what happens when you generalise! The thing to do would be to read the whole study in detail as it is published; I think you would find it very interesting!
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
ok, I have 3 barefoot equines. I don't agree with everything Pollitt has done but at least he is providing peer-reviewed, scientific research. research has to cover the basics first or it's not worth a xxxx. There is nothing in this study that says barefoot is bad, just that one model doesnt fit all. and most of us accept that right? and there are trimmers out there that arent strasser that are still trying to sculpt feet to a wild hoof model. it doesnt take a genius to realise that my exmoor's feet in scotland differ to a mustang's living in the desert. but at least now there's research to back it up and which can be built on.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I been banging on about that on this forum for the last three years, regular readers are sick of me saying it
I don't actually think that the way wild horse herds' feet perform has very much to teach us about keeping domestic pleasure and competition horses in the UK. The best trimmers in this country listen to the horse and allow it to make for itself the foot that it needs, be that "balanced" looking to us, or not.
We need money spent on scientific research into why shoes appear to cause caudal hoof lamenesses in a proportion of working horses, and why barefoot rehabs are about 4 times more effective in resolving them than drugs and remedial shoes. I don't think working barefoot horse welfare has much, if anything to gain from any more studies into how the hoofs of untended groups of horses in countries around the world, including our own moors and forests, perform. It bears precious little relationship to how to compete or even hack a barefoot horse.
spookypony
Well-Known Member
I been banging on about that on this forum for the last three years, regular readers are sick of me saying it
I don't actually think that the way wild horse herds' feet perform has very much to teach us about keeping domestic pleasure and competition horses in the UK. The best trimmers in this country listen to the horse and allow it to make for itself the foot that it needs, be that "balanced" looking to us, or not.
We need money spent on scientific research into why shoes appear to cause caudal hoof lamenesses in a proportion of working horses [...] It bears precious little relationship to how to compete or even hack a barefoot horse.
errr...I am a regular reader...
No disagreement from me that we need money spent on studies as you suggest! I agree completely!
However, I don't think that the study above is interested in implications on competing (or hacking) a barefoot horse in the UK. Its aims are completely different, and I find it interesting for its own sake! I suspect the abstract is worded the way it is to satisfy some particular granting body...maybe that's just the cynical researcher in me speaking? 
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
peteralfred, I haven't met a practitioner who advocates strasser yet... however - they all 'get' where she is coming from...
It's like a rough diamond this barefoot thing, each polish reveals new light. I want a good practitioner - be they iron-trained or not - who can read a foot well.
For the UK, it has absolutely no relevance. Here, horses are kept on mainly grassland with the odd bit of rough ground and tarmac with mainly working equines. I'd like to think my trimmer bears this in mind when trimming mine (and myself when giving a light tidy). I'm sure no-one is thick enough to think we turn out on the barren landscapes of Oz or the dust-bowls of America.
tbh... barefoot in the UK is mainly about navicular, lami, caudal pain, contraction of the heels and other pathologies shoes cause which is why we even have a barefoot following at all!!! MOST discover it in The Last Chance Saloon. Others have been there for decades and don't know what the fuss is about. Either or... this study is interesting yet meaningless on our shores.
It's like a rough diamond this barefoot thing, each polish reveals new light. I want a good practitioner - be they iron-trained or not - who can read a foot well.
For the UK, it has absolutely no relevance. Here, horses are kept on mainly grassland with the odd bit of rough ground and tarmac with mainly working equines. I'd like to think my trimmer bears this in mind when trimming mine (and myself when giving a light tidy). I'm sure no-one is thick enough to think we turn out on the barren landscapes of Oz or the dust-bowls of America.
tbh... barefoot in the UK is mainly about navicular, lami, caudal pain, contraction of the heels and other pathologies shoes cause which is why we even have a barefoot following at all!!! MOST discover it in The Last Chance Saloon. Others have been there for decades and don't know what the fuss is about. Either or... this study is interesting yet meaningless on our shores.
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MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
it's interesting in it's own right, but then I am a scientific researcher. Pollitt works with what he has and his findings are relevant to horse owners with horses in similar climates. I'm not sure he said 'this is relevant to horses in the UK' and there are trimmers here working on the wild horse model.
research has to have a starting point, this has answered questions and led to more-researchers elsewhere can build on this and for barefoot, this is a good thing even if not entirely relevant to all horses in all environments. in a discipline that relies almost exclusively atm on anecdotal evidence this is a good thing (remember, I am on side!).
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Well to a certain extent I may agree with you and the wild horse model DOES actually work on the horses I know in my immediate vicinity... only one study has been carried out on the WHT in the UK by Rockley. Therefore no conclusion can be made on the WHT on UK horses from this PARTICULAR study as the cohort are not native to us.
To add to that, no reference is made to diet on hooves. The UK based studies place a huge emphasis on diet.
To add to that, no reference is made to diet on hooves. The UK based studies place a huge emphasis on diet.