Ok guys, I need some schooling ideas for a very difficult horse..

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

I was drafted in by this client to ride her 7year old anglo arab 16hh gelding. He was broken in this time last year, ridden about for the summer and then turned away for the winter.
At first, it wouldn't even let me get on it. It would just rear, plunge do anything to not let me mount. However he has gotten over that and I can now get on and off as I please wherever and whenever (yay an improvement).
He is now also hacking out off the lead rein without any major dramas (woooo another improvement).

BUT - his problem lies with flatwork schooling. If there are poles out for him to go over he behaves like an angel (though still very resistant to leg) and has started jumping and loves that, behaves impecabally.
However, if I want to just flatwork school him we have HUGE issues.

He is VERY behind the leg, everytime i put my leg on his ears pin back and he humps his back and gets very stuffy. Getting him to trot a circle is HARD work - he frequently goes from trot to halt, i give him a kick/smack/use voice/turn him (i've tried everything) and his reaction is to either go backwards or buck like theres no tommorow!
HOWEVER sometimes he WILL trot around lovely.
Cantering he will only canter with the lunging aids (though have been trying to wean him off the lunging aids and onto leg aids) and when hes had enough he puts on the brakes and bucks bucks bucks bucks bucks.

NOW - one week he will be an angel. Week before last I had him walking, trotting and cantering all from my leg without a single flick of the tail or move of the ears - great i thought we've turned a corner.
No - last week and this week we're back to not even being able to trot.

They also have no arena so we are currently working in a TINY fenced off piece of field (fenced off with electric tape that we've already bucked/bolted through)
Owners refuse to have back person out or dentist out and get quite arsey when I ask them.

I feel like i've hit a wall - one minute we're improving and the next we're back to where we were 2months ago.

So please guys I need your opinions. Are there any schooling tips you can give me? Exercises? Methods?? Or your honest opinion on this little lads problem? I'm usually very good at working out a horse's problem and fixing it - i've had to be the last 8months lol but this one has me completely stumped, I just cannot understand him and why he's so unpredictable.

ETS - I do think it is more behavioural that could have maybe stemmed from something physical in the past - because he is worse a lot of the time in certain corners of the "school". Thats just my initial thought. Also the way hes so good one day and bad the next makes me think it is behavioural/psychological rather than physical, as if it was physical surely would happen consistently?

 

[mat]

Sounds to me like with your tactful riding you improved the horse, but the way he has gone backwards again makes me think he may have a physical problem.. I would encourage the owner to get him seen, if they wont, its best to stop working on him.
You could do more damage even with your kind way of riding!

Good luck hun!

 

[madhector]

mmmm....does sound to me like it is a physical problem, or maybe a memory of one, difficult though if the owner refuses to get him checked

 

[CentrestageSHS]

Two words ---- ANGLO ARAB. Only joking, he sounds like he doesn't feel like working some days and that he'd rather just stand there and nobody is going to tell him what to do or he has a paddy. Is that right? he must learn that he has got to do what you say when you are riding him, he may only get ridden for an hour a day, that means he can do what he wants for the other 23 I always think. You might want some sticky bum jods, spurs and a dressage whip with a flap on the end! Don't worry about his head, just get him going forward, use your voice, leg, whip anything. Don't let him slow down keep him going and start doing big circles and constant transitions. He will find this hard and tire quickly so don't do too much with him at once. In the transitions, makes sure you ask him clearly the first time, if he doesn't speed up, give him a good flick with the whip, if he starts bucking send him on, they find it hard to buck when they are going faster, if this fails put him on a small circle, they find it even harder to buck then!! You've got to get tough with him I'm afraid, not nasty but he has to respond and listen to what you tell him when he is being worked, not be naughty. I have had some battles with some horses I have had in for schooling for over 3 hours before they have given in and started listening. You and the horse may come out knackered, but don't finish until you have achieved what you wanted or next time you ride the horse will take the micky.
It's quite hard to explain without sounding harsh, but with young horses you need to be very clear and precise and know what you're doing, the horse should have fun but also realise that this is the time for work not messing around.

 

[mickey]

I think until you know that he is fine physically - teeth, back etc as well as saddle it is very difficult to see beyond those possibilities.
I wonder if groundwork would help - Perhaps if he doesn't quite understand the aids/want to go forward. But from what you say I don't think it's a misunderstanding, but something either physically or psychologically more deep-rooted. Would insist on the physical checks and try to dig into any known past history to look for clues if I were you.

 

[ClaireT]

Firstly, I just wanted to say congratulations on persevering with him - you've obviously invested a lot of your skill and effort.
I had a big horse who was very similar; after being broken and doing well at prelim level, he was also turned away. I got him to school last spring, and although he liked jumping, when schooling he refused to do anything but buck!.
To me it sounds like your lad is either in pain, or as you say schooling brings back the memory of pain. If his owner is getting arsy about having his back/health checked, I would ask her to sit on him for an hour..If he starts to bronco like a pro, surely her mind might change!!

 

[MagicMelon]

I agree that the horse really needs to have physical things ruled out (back, teeth & saddle). I think the owners are mean to have you battling away when the horse could well be trying to tell you something! I would basically refuse to go any further with the horse until he'd been seen.

 

[GHALI]

Do you exercise him out and about out of the arena, does sound like an underlying problem, the joys of owners, but is he bored of arena and could you try transitions whilst out hacking to make life more fun for him as long as it`s not dangerous for you!!!!!!.

 

[GTs]

Why are people waiting till 6 to break horses - seems the most retarded thing in the world!!!

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

GTs - yes i agree!!

Thanks everyone for your replies they are really very encouraging and helpful. The owner is insistant that she will not have his back checked - which is just stupid but hey ho! Though I must say I get the feeling its him deciding he'll work some days and not others like centrestageSHS said. I gave him a little trot out hacking yesteday and he did that fine and like i said when jumping hes fine. He does it in the "arena" and also in the other little field suitable for schooling - these are the only two places to work.
His reaction to EVERYTHING seems to be to plant himself. Even out hacking if he sees something scary its plant and tense ALL muscles and not move.
I try EVERYTHING to get him moving - i'm knackered after 10minutes and hes not even puffing - hmph!
Gonna perservere but just don't know how to make any more progress when hes so impossible sometimes and completely unpredictable.

 

[mrsdoyal]

difficult to comment without seeing the horse, but 1st thing that comes to mind is TEETH. When, if ever, has this horse had his teeth checked?
With no disrespect to one of the posters here, personally i think that no good is ever achieved through exhausting the horse (re: 3hrs in the school).

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Yes teeth DID cross my mind as he is incredibly "gobby" and sensitive in his mouth - I will try and push that one tommorow when I ride him but have serious doubts that owners will get teeth done.

 

[Haflinger]

Do you tend to keep your leg on once he's done something (ie. walk and then going into trot)?

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

No i don't, I make sure I make the aids sharp and clear.

He seems to have a huge resistance issue to the leg. If his owner (who cannot ride due to an injury to her knee, permanent) if shes in the middle with a crop giving lunging aids he does everything beautifully, but as soon as I give the ridden aids he completely resists.

 

[Haflinger]

Can't really give you much advice - I am no way near experianced enough!

My instructor said to me that you should give the horse 3 chances to respond.
Ask nicely, if that dosen't work ask more firm, if that dosen't work really tell them.
Don't think it would work with this sort of horse though..

 

[Eccles]

I don't understand why she won't let you get his back and teeth checked.

Whether or not it is an physical issue or not it is hard to progress without knowing for sure! You are obviously working very hard and doing everything right but there is no way I would continue until he's checked out. What is her reasoning?

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

That is something I try actually, your instructor is right, but the problem is I ask nice...nothing...I ask firmer...nothing...I reaaaaally tell him....nothing lol Honestly, i could be jumping up and down on his back and he still wouldn't move!

 

[Haflinger]

Is he the sort of horse that likes to think that its all his idea?

Because one thing I found with one of the ponies I ride is that if you make him thinks its all his idea he loves it.

 

[mrsdoyal]

you'd be surprised what dramatic effects teeth problems can cause. One of the first things I do when getting a "problem" horse to re-educate is get their teeth examined. Often, pain in this area has turned out to be a major factor in the way the horse has been behaving when ridden. The going forward issue in the horse you are training seems to point at teeth issues (my guess). Once, in a similar position to you where the owner thought it couldnt be a teeth related problem, I offered to pay the owner for the dentist call-out/check if it turned out that I was wrong. Be sure though that you get a properly trained equine dentist, not a bloke "doing it the old way" with a bucket & a single rasp (they exist!).

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Her reasoning is she doesn't have the money - even though its £35 for back person and £40 for dentist? Surely its worth it.
Teeth has def been my concern, I did ask her once but can't remember her reply - will ask her again tommorow.

 

[Eccles]

If she can't manage £75 to get these things checked how can she afford someone to school her horse - in fact how can she afford to keep the horse??!! Hope it never gets ill and needs the vet! Strange logic...... GL Kayleigh!

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Cheers im gonna need it!! Her pony got ill a few weeks ago, had a bad bout of laminitis and her face and head swelled up where the sinuses are - really bad - didn't get vet out just left it in the stable for weeks to see what would happen. Makes me seem paranoid with Rocks lol

 

[mitchellk]

Have you run your hands over his back and muscles to check for any spasm? I think teeth and very likely muscular probs, particularly if doesn't like being in the corner of the school.

 

[kayleigh_and_rocky]

Have done my own checks down his back and bum etc and he didnt flinch - but i do know he had a back problem in the past and the lady didnt get it checked (surprise?) and this lead to the problems mounting him which we have now overcome (the back prob was corrected). I'm inclined to think teeth, i wonder if hes ever had them done hmm

 

[Caritas]

If there isnt a physical problem, could it just be tension related???

 

[AmyMay]

I only have two things to say.

1. Stop riding it until it has had a physical exam by a professional.
2. When you resume riding it after all this has been done do remember that this is a green horse, recently broken in with no experience of life. If you take it out for a hack, take a companion.

And to consider Hey Ho a reasonable response to the owner not wanting to pay for the horse to be examined is quite frankly astonishing. I thought you were trying to build a reputation as a serious trainer?

 

[vicijp]

Totally agree with Amymay.
This horse can do one, maybe 2 things. It will certainly damage your reputation, and might even damage your wellbeing.
Tell the woman to grow a brain or pi55 off. Dont associate yourself with muppets.

 

[Gonetofrance]

Get it checked by professionals. If it is pain related, then at any moment it could finally crack and seriously hurt you. Also if it is pain related, surely the poor horse deserves better than to be continually being hurt and undoubtedly frying his brain for the future?
Is the cash for back and teeth not less than a week's schooling livery?
I agree with Amymay, and Vicijp, don't get back on until it is seen to. You are far more important than an ignorant owner.

 

[CentrestageSHS]

Hmm, perhaps I read this one a little differently to a lot of people, I got the impression of a stubborn horse not wanting to go forward and being a litle nappy. I agree with everybody else though, make sure there is nothing physically wrong with the horse first. I have to deal with ignorant owners everyday, and unfortunately most of my wages come from imbociles (sp?), most simply so not understand horses, so I wouldn't give in but don't let it get to the point where it is dangerous for yourself! When I said I have been in a school for 3 hours before, the horse didn't acually work constantly, it spent most of the first hour stood on it back legs napping at the gate, second hour actually realising it can't stop at the gate everytime and third hour doing exercise's and leg yielding in walk to fully make sure the horse was not going to nap at all and it was calm and relaxed before it left the school to give it a good feeling. The horse is beautiful to ride now and listens to every aid when you ride it, it doesn't even consider stopping at the gate.

I always forget when I post to put things like Back, teeth, fitting of tack etc. because I always do it without even thinking and assume everybody else does! So my post is only relevant if after you have everything checked and it is fine the horse is still being a little temperamental.

 

[henryhorn]

I would ask very strongly they get his back and saddle checked, as it's amazing what's inside some saddles.
Some friends used our arena this week to get a professional saddler out to check their saddle, the horse suddenly objected violently to going forward.
When they dismembered it to the tree (remember he makes saddles!) the air panels were taped together with black tape by the manufacture in the middle, and had formed a hard ridge which hurt the horse.. (Bates saddle).
It may be his back is sore some days and not others as was the case in this horse, he could bear so many times of the pain then just said No!
If that's ok ditch the schooling and give him some fun.
He needs to hack (in company if he's difficult), do plenty of trotting and cantering uphills to get him going.
Pop logs etc anything really to make him enjoy being ridden.
At the moment he sounds as if he is bored senseless with schooling and needs more fun....