Ok, sports psychology doesn't work, someone suggest something please?!

little_pink_piggies

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Because I am driving myself and everyone else a bit crazy I think! (And also too much free time= hello HHO 'properly' again
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This is sort of brought on by my school emailing to ask why I didn't get into Oxford... "Well, as the interviewers said to me- "You are very bright and a nice person, but even when you get a question right, which is 90% of what we've given you, you're instinct is that it is wrong, and then you apologize to us for you being 'thick'" " It was quite possibly their most entertaining interview of the week, the dumb blonde sat there muttering under her breath "I can't do this, whyyyyy am I so thick" Then them asking "And do you think that answers right" "Ummm, sorry I'm dreadful at Maths (94% at A level) so probably not, sorry!" "Well it is right. Please stop apologising". That conversation, or several variations of it took up most of the interview
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I don't get too hung up on it, and I was laughing at myself. I don't get into a major stress and get cross with myself, I do just laugh, call myself stupid and get on with it... But I don't think it solves anything and it happens repeatedly
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Although I'm a bit cross with myself for bollocksing it up so much, I'm certainely not too upset about it, before I went in about 4 people phoned/text me to tell not too apologise
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I know it sounds like it's an attention seeking teenage habit, but it's really not, I do quite genuinely feel the need to apologise!

What irritates me with the horses is it stops me thinking
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And, like, when something goes wrong my first thought is "Sh*t, poor horse, has to cope with me messing up again" and not on what I should do to solve the situation? I think the only reason Arths been so good xc this year is because he's learnt that in times of trouble he can't rely on me to help him and he has to just get on with it and sort himself out
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And in dressage tests, I find myself thinking back to to the last movement and how badly I rode a bit of it compared to how I know I can ride it at home, although I don't think it's nerves related as I do the same at home... And I do quite genuinely feel sorry for my horses having me on them, that's not a compliment fishing statement, I just would like to be able not to! It's gotten to the point that if I go to try a horse/ride someone elses I apologise to them for the fact I'm probably about to ruin their horses before I get on
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And the other entertaining one is when instructors ask you to mark what you've just done on a scale of 0-10 and I honestly don't think I have ever given myself over a 4? I'm just quite conscious of the fact it's stopping me differentiating between something being genuinely bad, and good...

I know it sounds really attention-seekingish, but I am quite desperate to stop it now! Sports Psych, NLP, Jo Cooper etc all haven't really worked, someone giving me a bollocking works short term, but I think I would turn into a wreck if someone shouted at me that much on a regular basis! I have always been told off for overanalysing and thinking too much
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(ironic considering I probably am thinking too much posting this!) but like I say, I would just like to stop doing all the apologising crap... Ideas on a postcard please?
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And just because I love this pic of my silly ponies
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Hope everyone is well and defrosting quickly!
 
I think it sounds like you just gotta learn to love yourself a bit more
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Seriously, I reckon that youve got a very low self esteem ( which is madness because you have absolutely everything going for you!) which is making you feel so full of self doubt and unconfident. I think this stems from a difficult family background especially the problems with your Dad who TBH sounded more than enough to make anybody screwed
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I don't know, perhaps you need to unearth all of this with a really good counseller/pshcyologist? Apparently if you drag things up and talk things through it does do wonders . Helps you look at things in a different light and then you can move on, in a different frame of mind.

It might not solve things , completly yet but it might be a step in the right direction?

I hope that Nora Pants is still going well and hasnt reverted to any rat bag behaviour!
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Like O_B says, you have crippling low self esteem. I really would suggest seeking a councillor to talk to, who will help you be more assertive and sure about yourself.
 
I was going to message this to you but rethought and will post . . .

Take a deep breath and repeat to yourself, "Stupider people than me get this done." Then look around and I'll bet the mantra will be born out by fact.

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Sorry
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, that's a bit harsh but it's true. Clearly you are not a stupid person or a bad horseman.

I read a really interesting article about apologising recently (it's a running joke/specialist subject for Canadians), to the effect that if becomes a habit (rather than a reaction to making a real misjudgement etc) it can be a way of "wiping the slate clean" and psychologically making the offence - really or imagined - go away. Whether the motivation is to protect self image or to not have to face the possibility of repeating the mistake is open for debate, but either way it's vaguely passive-aggressive - "You can't blame me because I'm sorry." It's not conscious and it doesn't mean you're not really sorry, but it's a way of avoiding taking the next, confident step forward.

Now THAT does sound harsh.
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And I don't know you so I can't possibly guess if it applies to you, but I've seen it in myself and I've seen it in other people. I free admitted I rode a lot of bad horses in my youth not just because they were what was on offer, but because I figured at least I wouldn't make them worse and I might conceivably make them better!:) It also gave me an excuse when I wasn't competitive, although I was often enough, looking back, that I really didn't need it. On the other hand, it gave me a body of knowledge and an area of interest I'm very happy with, so maybe it was a good plan.
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Personally, I'd go with the bollocking. One of the most useful things someone I respected ever said to me was, "I expected better of you." It hurt at the time but it made me think that perhaps other people didn't see me the same way I saw myself. Then again, I had another coach who was pretty awful (I had no money, he had no students, surprise, surprise, even though he was very knowledgeable) and he did me another favour. I won a lot when I was with him (all thanks to him) and one day, driving home from an event I'd won, he just would not let up. I clearly remember thinking, "This is not fair. I am better than this and I've worked hard and it's never going to be good enough, even for a minute." Interestingly, he told all sorts of other people he thought I was good, which also helped.

Which would suggest the secret is trying to see yourself as other people see you. Perhaps ask someone you trust to do exactly that, tell you the good and the bad. And don't assume everyone with good to say is a loser
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- that would then suggest you think you're more qualified to judge than they are. See the irony?
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You need to work out what beat the fight out of you?

With horses i suffer the same problem, with work / study i have always thought myself superior and capable of doing anyone's job if I wanted to. Not sure where this innate belief came from, as I was not a grade A student (but got B's with no effort).
 
I don't think it's a silly 'teenage thing' at all, I have similar problems and I'm 23. I always think that I've done something or said something wrong when most of the time I haven't. It really is a low self-esteem problem. Talking about it really helped me, and I'd done more counciling before I started working where I am because it was making a big difference. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is meant to be very good for helping too as it tries to give you the skills to recognise when you're being too hard on yourself and then to start to cope with and control the bad thoughts and reactions.

I really hope you can find something that works for you because it's such a horrible way to feel. It's really difficult to get out of feeling that way because there's no magic button to switch off the doubt and negativity and it's so frustrating! Big hugs to you, things will get better
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as above, it sounds as if you have very low self esteem issues.
i read a quote years ago that i memorised, never been able to track down the book it came from but tbh the quote alone does it for me:
From "Act it, Be it - Role playing strategies to get you through the day" - "you can become the part you play, so choose that part with care..."
ime people treat you depending on how you act - if you act confidently (as long as it is based on something solid, not just ego, obv!) most people will be convinced, which will boost your own confidence.

even in the bit you've written above you've done yourself in twice, saying that the admissions tutors said "dumb blonde" (i bet they flipping didn't say that!) and that you "just laugh, call yourself stupid..." etc. Noooooo. momentarily ditzy, NOT stupid. we can all do that!

you need to sit down and have a good chat with yourself, ideally out loud! give yourself a good talking to, ideally when you're alone otherwise people will think you're mental!
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write it all down, it really helps. do a list of your strong points. do another list of really nice things that people you respect have said about you. do another one of thing you accept you need to work on. everyone has weak areas, but they don't have to overcome your brainpower! keep the lists and refer to them frequently.
btw, from what i've seen of your riding YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING about apologising to your horses etc etc.
Blyth Tait said in 1 of his books that when riding it is better to do the wrong thing with total confidence, than the right thing without confidence...

btw, i know that one of my weakest areas is maths, i used to be good at it and then for some reason got overwhelmed and underconfident, and now i just assume i got things wrong the first time and try to run the whole thing again quickly as a check before saying anything, and then fret because i'm now slow... so, a bit crap, BUT i know that by contrast my English is really good, and my languages are good... hope you can see what i'm trying to say here. swings and roundabouts and all that. nobody can be brilliant at everything, but you need to get belief in what you are good at...
 
I was wibbling while O_B was succinctly stating her perceptive take on the subject. . .
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I'd also suggest perhaps some "professional assistance" if you're up to it. I don't know you or your history but obviously there is the implication it's not very pleasant. I think you might be surprised how helpful it is to just talk to someone who ISN'T involved with you in any way and professionally bound not to judge. Families can be a mixed blessing - it's all very well to say you should rise above but easier said than done. Think of it like coaching - all the best need at least a little now and then.

I would also say, following from above, when you want to say "sorry" for no reason, don't. Just keep your trap shut or change the subject. Say it in your head if you have to but don't let it pass your lips. It's not a solution to the way you feel but that sort of thing can become a habit and you're strong enough to just not do it anymore.
 
Just to throw something else into the mix - I think internet forums, and the ability to be in constant communication with people really, really do not help this. I stopped even looking at HHO for over a year because I realised I had got into the ridiculous habit of not trusting my own judgment on anything. At all. Which was bonkers as I used to read stuff and wonder how people managed to keep themselves alive let alone a horse!

By being able to verify (or not) your decisions using HHO/FB/text/MSN, whatever, at any time of the day or night, you lose the ability to believe in yourself and your ability to make the right decision. It's not that you can't make it or that you are wrong or that you don't know, it's that you have the safety net of somewhere like this/friends/people whose opinion you trust to just check things over with. Except you can't do that in an interview/in the ring/going XC, so you fall apart a bit because you've lost the skill of trusting your judgment.

For the big stuff, sure, run a sanity check with people. For the small stuff, veto it, entirely. Make the choice and accept the consequences. Sure, sometimes you'll be wrong, but it is rarely the end of the world and you'll come out better able to trust your own judgment. I'm not convinced this is as much a self-esteem issue as a protective issue - if it all goes wrong you can look back and think 'well, it isn't entirely my fault coz all those other people agreed with me and so I did it'.

The truth is, we're all wrong, some times with greater negative consequences than others, and sure, it is slightly more painful having to shoulder the blame entirely on your own. But it's also the quickest way to learn and the best way to feel good when you do make the right choice - because you did it, not you and fifty three other people!

I hope that makes some kind of sense - it's why you'll rarely see me ask for advice on here these days, and it's why I stick to a trusted group of people via email/MSN/text for the important stuff. And it's also why I sometimes ignore their advice and do what I think is right - and sometimes I am completely off the mark, others I look back and think I made the right choice. Either way next time I know a little bit more and can hopefully make a bit of a better informed choice.
 
Bad grammar- the bit starting "I probably gave them the most entertaining..." is what I said, they just said the bit about apologising even when I was right
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Will respond properly later, just off out now but thought I would clear up my shocking grammar! Thanks for all your responses so far
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OK I'm not too hot on the psychology side I'm afraid (though I agree with SC about the destructive or inflationary powers of forums) but if it helps I had a shocking interview at Cambridge in the days when you could only apply to one college. The interviewers made no bones of the fact that they didn't understand the Scottish exam system then tried to lighten the tone by asking me what I was playing on the violin at the time. When I told them they said 'you can't possibly be playing that, it's very hard'
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I managed to get a very good set of professional qualifications from a non-Oxbridge uni, avoided wasting an expensive year of my life (the Cambridge degree course was a year longer than any of the others for the same subject) and ten years down the line feel that the university I studied at is totally irrelevant to any part of my working life.

Some of the advice in the replies above is brilliant. Take it and believe in yourself a little more.
 
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Bad grammar- the bit starting "I probably gave them the most entertaining..." is what I said, they just said the bit about apologising even when I was right
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Will respond properly later, just off out now but thought I would clear up my shocking grammar! Thanks for all your responses so far
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You've managed to apologise for your post already - there was nothing wrong with your post.
 
I think that you tend to over-analyse things. I too, I think its becuase I want to do things perfectly, and when it doesnt happen I want to know why.

With horses, I think that I am far better than I am; and I have big goals this year..which I would like to reach! But if something goes wrong in a test, or we have a stupid pole or a run out then I question WHY for ages afterwards> Its because errors dont fit into my plans! But I think that I, and by the sounds of it you too, need to relax and 'enjoy it'. I know it sounds terribly cliche, when maybe you dont just want to do horses 'for fun', but to be competitive...but I need to do it myself. I would love to win every even I do, and have everything going perfect, but you just have to relax!

And, I have NEVER had a certain 4* rider be so complimentry to me, and I think that he really does mean it! Everyone else can see your riding is fab!

Oh and dont worry about Oxford, only 2 people out of about 15 Oxbridge candidates at my school got in!
 
As an ex-Oxonian, FWIW while I had a great time I also felt perpetually out of my depth.....
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It's a funny scenario where's there's all this expectation / anticipation, and you forget that there are plenty of other unis out there, where you will be able to have far more flexibility and accessibility (much more helpful for horses!)
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. With that experience, and then the snow forcing you to twiddle thumbs, be careful not to blow things out of proportion
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- you have stunning horses and ride beautifully from what I've seen on here.
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On the suggestions, perhaps almost aggressively positive reinforcement may be best - someone who will not let you beat yourself up but forces you to focus on the positive and put the rest into perspective, and when you need it give you an encouraging stern word. Plus..... and I think this is the bit we all forget - no one is a mindreader, sometimes when you're feeling cr@ppy for no reason you might need to 'fess up and tell trainer - don't expect a softly softly approach, but we all have our good and bad days and work around them.
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Hope some of that makes some sort of sense.....!
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With horses, I think that I am far better than I am;

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really?
i don't know you at all, obviously, but why do you say that, and obviously persist in thinking it even though you know you aren't as good as you think? (sorry, Mobius band of logic there.)

can i just say that in a lot of ways lpp's modesty is really refreshing (even if she's obviously going overboard with it in real life apparently - never met her so i don't really know), because if there's one thing that doesn't tend to go brilliantly with most horses, it is ill-founded overweening confidence!
 
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With horses, I think that I am far better than I am;

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really?
i don't know you at all, obviously, but why do you say that, and obviously persist in thinking it even though you know you aren't as good as you think? (sorry, Mobius band of logic there.)



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I think it's called being a teenage boy Kerilli. We all believed we were brilliant and could go 4* if only WFP would fall off and offer us the ride when we were teenagers! Except LPPs of course
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lpp I think you need to find a friend and mentor who will positively reinforce all your GOOD POINTS and you should also try to write down after each lesson/event the good bits and bits to work on but NOT bad bits! there are no such things as bad bits there are just good bits and bits that will soon be good bits.
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Remember to look back and enjoy your improvement
Celebrate the positive don't be shy to enjoy your success

and if all else fails just adopt a gung ho young batty bird attitude to life!
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remember it (life) is all supposed to be fun
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*big supportive hug and similtanious kick up the bum*
 
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As an ex-Oxonian, FWIW while I had a great time I also felt perpetually out of my depth.....
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It's a funny scenario where's there's all this expectation / anticipation,

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that's interesting. i didn't do Oxbridge (did prep work but wimped out at last minute, thank God) but my then-boyf went, and also a friend from my year who had been top of everything all her life at school, top A+ student in everything every year, first ever Head Girl (only Head Boys before her), she really was sooo clever and so hardworking. she got to Oxford and apparently it was a mega shock to her system to just be 'average' there. same with my then-boyf, he was mega-clever and really struggled a bit with having to work very very hard just to keep up at Cantab, as opposed to working quite hard and being top of everything...
when i saw how hard he had to work, and how hard his mate had to work who was doing same course i was (but i was at Brum), i was really relieved that i'd wimped out, and had time for the horses instead! hope you can see what i'm getting at...!
 
Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I was work-hard average rather than school jewel!!
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But rather than cruising and remaining average, I found myself having to work a lot harder to remain middle of the pack (nice and discreetly) and when I didn't work, it was a problem
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(that'll be second year then!). It was an amazing experience and I remain very privileged to have been a part of it, but my message for LPP is that it's not the be-all and end-all - and the interview process etc can have a slightly weird destructive excessive self-analysis impact on you!
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Any sense yet, or more nonsense?!
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Its hard when you are in an interview, you are made to think that you did something wrong.

For every thing you think you did wrong, you HAVE to think of something good you did as well. This stops you focusing on the bad things!!

This poem is in our tackroom and is my YO/instructors mantra (along with stick your tits out
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If You Think You're Beaten

If you think you're beaten, you are,
If you think you dare not, you don't.
If you'd like to win, but think you can't,
It's almost for sure, you won't.

If you think you're losing, you've lost.
For out in the world we find -
Success begins with a person's will,
It's all in the state of mind.

If you think you're outclassed, you are,
You've got to think high to rise.
You have to stay with it,
In order to win the prize.

Life's battles don't always go,
To the one with the better plan.
For more often than not, you will win,
If only you think you can!

I love it, it really clicks with me. Really read it properly though, and slowly.

We also have a copy of it in our lorry!!
 
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and the interview process etc can have a slightly weird destructive excessive self-analysis impact on you!
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yeah yeah deskbound, i bet you were a right girlie swot and A++ in everything!

Does anyone remember all the legendary stories about Oxbridge interviews?
My faves were: last interview of the day, very bored Don watches candidate walk in, leans back and opens his broadsheet, says "Impress me."
Candidate says nothing, takes lighter out of pocket and sets fire to bottom corner of newspaper...
(allegedly got in.)
and
Exam essay question (supposed to be 1 hr): "What is courage?"
Answer: "This is."
(allegedly got in too.)
 
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With horses, I think that I am far better than I am;

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really?
i don't know you at all, obviously, but why do you say that, and obviously persist in thinking it even though you know you aren't as good as you think? (sorry, Mobius band of logic there.)



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I think it's called being a teenage boy Kerilli. We all believed we were brilliant and could go 4* if only WFP would fall off and offer us the ride when we were teenagers! Except LPPs of course
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Kerilli- its also called ambition.
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. I know how much I have to improve but one day.....it may be that I am half-decent.
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SC- you are right I think! Have me to a T!
 
I think my sister does the same thing- you belioeve everyone lese around you is acheiving far more and would do far better than you with the same oppurtunities and they all think you're stupid. Firstly, you're there. To get to interview at Oxford you have to be seriously good. Secondly, look around you- you are just as good, you deserve to be there because someone else has said so. When you ride you can't look round and think you're outclassed- you earnt your place there and therefore sod whatever happens, hundreds of others fell by the wayside to get there.
 
FWIW, i went to Oxford too, and please believe me, you wouldnt even have got as far as the interview process if you weren't "suitable". The interviewers will NOT have thought you were a dumb blonde, because if you were, you'd not even have got that far. They'll know that you just panicked and gave daft answers and said mad things because, well, that's what sixth-formers do at Oxbridge interviews.

I'm sorry you didnt get through, but truly, Oxford isn't the be-all and end-all of life. I think it would be a tough place to study if you were a serious competitive rider - the intensive term structure doesn't leave you a lot of time for training.
 
Relax. You are young, it will come - be patient. I can remember thinking how very very important GCSEs were then when I got to A-levels, I wondered why I had been worried! Then I applied to university and that was THE most important thing EVER..
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Then I did my finals and that really was bloody hard. Seriously, it is never-ending and the things that seem so important and upsetting now will fade away and just be part of what made you who you are.

You sound like you could do with some affirmation to make you feel better about your many successes - maybe a mentor would help, someone who makes you feel valued and valuable, like an older girlfriend or similar. I think going to university and finding out what YOU want and YOU like, not worrying about what other people think will do you a world of good. I'm a believer in fate - you may not see it now but Oxbridge is incredibly pressurized and by the sounds of things, it may not have suited you as it does encourage that horrendous 'I'm not good enough' cycle of thought and it does make a lot of people very very unhappy. Even the really high achievers in my year were pretty miserable, looking back on it.

Why don't you try doing something completely different from horses for a week or two? The problem with horses is that you are inevitably putting yourself in a psychologically negative scenario - one where you put yourself, your riding and your horses out there to be judged by other people and the judging is against your peers. If you win, then great. But if you lose, then it does your self esteem no good - it just feeds the inner gremlin that says 'I'm not good enough'. You really really have to get your own head sorted in your private time so that the riding and competing doesn't just become an extension of your inner fears. I learnt this the hard way - I competed in piano competitions and I couldn't understand why I was so miserable even though I was doing pretty well. Once I had learned to play for me and myself and my enjoyment only, then I was able to relax on stage a bit more and I did start winning. It just was so hard psychologically to keep putting myself out there to be judged and found wanting, particularly at such a young age. I could do it now because I'm much older and I care much less what everyone else thinks.

So what I'm basically saying is relax, think about what you are really worth to YOU not to anyone else, go and do things that will build on your sense of yourself. Counselling might show you the way but it's going to have to be you that walks it
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l_p_p - Feel free to ignore this, but my thoughts are that what you need is a mentor, ideally someone older, wiser, who is interested in what you do, what makes you tick etc and cares enough when you're in a muddle to give sound advice and help you short the wheat from the chaff.

Whilst I'm sure you've got some great friends, I do think perhaps some of your peer group are counter-productive to what you're trying to achieve. Histrionics and melodrama seem to be par for the course with girls your age (note I didn't say "youngsters nowadays"
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, although I think "girls your age" still sounds patronising, sorry I can't think of anything better
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), and I doubt you need anyone to make mountains out of your molehills, do you?

Can you think of anyone who you'd gravitate towards who could do this for you? He/she might just be the sounding board you need to see yourself differently and make the changes you'd like to see in yourself.

Disclaimer: this could all be complete bo**ocks as I dropped out of A levels and went to the University of Life.
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Dumb and blonde(ish), yep, that's me.
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Ah hey, I think you feel like you did a bad interview because all the apology moments feel huge in comparison to all the other words you said, but that's your mind playing tricks on you. THat's just the way the brain works - it's over-think, and we all get in some form or other, we just don't realise quite how much everyone else gets it too, until we're a bit older and have lots of more honest conversations with friends and family.

If it's any consolation, and i have no idea if it would be, but my economics interview at Oxford for PPE was SO crap I remember actually laughing most of the way through it - what a loser! Hah! Looked like a right bimbo. But didn't give it another thought and have to say I much enjoyed not having to be of distinctly average intelligence in place full of scarily bright people, but went and was of distinctly below-average wealth in a place full of ridiculously rich people (bristol uni)!

On a serious note though, it is worth talking to a professional about why it might be your mind holds on to the negative feelings and doesn't let the positives through... a friend of mine had loads of issues with relationships and she described it that when we'd tell her positive stuff about how great she was at meeting people, making friends etc, she could hear the words and understand what they meant, but they just kind of "bounced off" her... whereas the silghtest negative word went straight into her head and then round and round over and over again getting bigger and bigger. She's loads better now after a course of counselling.

on a more straightforward note, if the apologising is a verbal tick rather than something you actually feel (everyone has them, it's usually because you're subconsciously afraid of silence rather than anything else, hence why they come out during interviews etc) then there are simple things you train yourself to do - things that broadcasters train themselves to do so that they break those repetitive speech patterns etc. They're more about practice than anything deeply psychological.
 
I think OP that you are what is termed female and human! its not the end of life to not get in oxford, life takes you up a wierd course.

I got told at school despite good alevels to go to secretarial college, refused and went to poly for a year (that dates me!), transfered after a year of being told how crap I was at my subject (ceramics) to the the best college in the Uk for it ( something like 100+ applicants for a each place including from the home of ceramics, Japan), got a good degree, hated starving in a garet as an artist and now courtesy of totally irrelevant good degree that got me fast tracked into current career have a stupidly well payed job as an accountant (art degree - accontancy career -well they both start with A I guess).

No way would I have forecast any of the above when I graduated in 1987!

There is nothing wrong with humility and blaming self rather than horse was what (courtesy of Jills Gymkhana) I was brought up on. I actually have less time and despise those who blame the horse/ground/judge rather than themselves when lookign at results. I suspect you will in a few years amaze yourself and all who know you. I envy you for having the journey ahead.

Good luck I am sure you will do well.
 
Just want to say that you did brilliantly to get as far as an Oxbridge interview! You look to be a fantastic rider, and I have loads and loads of admiration for what you do.

I have always had some issues with self confidence, and so I can understand a bit how you feel. Seeing a counsellor of some kind may well help, but trust me that things will get better. One of the best things that ever happened to me was growing old enough to stop caring about what other people thought. This will happen to you too! For the moment, you really need to try and believe in yourself (look, all these people in CR believe in you, they must know something!
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Stop beating yourself up about things, I know, I do that a lot, but at the end of the day, we should probably spend that energy on something more productive or fun, like enjoying out horses
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Hope you feel a bit better after reading this!

Isabelle
 
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