Okay, so is she up to weight?

HollyB66

HollyB66

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Hi everyone

3 weeks ago I posted about my new girl:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5100279/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

Thank you for all your lovely replies, however, Rotchana did raise one question which no one else picked up on - perhaps because you were all being so positive with her being my new horse and all
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Anyway, I have some new photos of her today and would like to have some of your opinions on her weight. She is fed as much ad lib hay as she can put away (and she does eat alot) and she only has a small scoop of a farmshop brand pasture type mix, a small scoop of Dengie Alfa-A, a carrot and a glug of vegetable oil in her breakfast and tea.

I was thinking about Baileys No 4 to improve her topline (and no I don't know what that is - except when I bought her they said she needed some more topline) and coat condition - she is not clipped and does not seem to be very woolley yet.

'Fraid she is a little muddy in places as we only just brought her in for a quick brush up before tea.

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TIA Holly B
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She is lovely, is she roan?
She is a little bit poor and weak over her top I would agree. I think Baileys top line are fab, and have never had anyone heat up on them either.
Don't go mad, though, in a few short months the grass goes mad and you'll be glad shes not too fat!
 
She looks a nice weight. I wouldnt want her to lose any though. Someone once said your supposed to just feel the ribs but not actually see them, and I think she is just on the borderline.
 
She looks well in herself, (and by my own personal definition of the word) not poor. She is however light on condition,and muscle.But remember this takes time to work on. You could do harm by overfeeding and over exercising, so go for a gradual steady improvement. I would say from the look of her that you are already on that path and in a few months you will be showing us some super pics of her.Happy new year.
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she looks really well.i would recommend baileys or blue chip.I had a horse years ago in a similar state and tried both baileys and blue chip and both worked brilliantly at different stages. I had him on blue chip to begin with then swapped to baileys to improve top line and it worked brilliantly.
 
She looks fine given her age - I wouldn't want her too fat going into spring - you are doing the right thing with the ad-lib hay, she actually looks quite fit, her neck looks a little weak but will come with a bit of the right work. The oil will help coat condition too - although I swear by linseed meal for both coat and condition.
 
She looks fine but as others have said, doesn't want to lose anymore weight. i love Baileys Topline and i would also increase her Alfa-A. When you next buy a bag, try the Alfa-Oil, it is great and means you don't have to add extra oil. BTW, she is really pretty!
 
Topline conditioning cubes will only HELP improve topline if she is being worked correctly. I would suggest to you to start off low and move up, don't blaze in and feed her up too much while you are still getting used to her. I always think with new horses and a new feeding regime - slowly slowly catchy monkey!
 
At the moment the only difference to her original feeding regime is the mountains of hay and vegetable oil.

I have to admit that I don't really know how to improve 'topline' and what it is... (Real newbie here)
 
Try her on the miracle that is Top Spec. It's a bit pricey but it's marvelous stuff. Do a search on the forum for it and you'll read glowing report after glowing report. She looks generally well, esp given her age but I wouldn't want her to lose any more. Some people say you can feed for 'topline' but it's a gradual process of the right kind of work and the right nutrition. Again, do a search on here for it, as there's lot of good info (you'll just need to weadle out the not-so-good info!).
 
She is in better "nik" thancharles was when i got him going into winter. He is 17 and is 16.2hh id x tb.

She loosk like she can do with just a bit more top line and neck, and a bit more muscle over her back. That will come with work. I popped charles on buildup mix and sugerbeet, and he has adlib good quality hayledge. That with work and he has slowly improved. He is an older horse and dosnt winter well. The jey is to feed and work, if you just feed and not work then you'll just get the weight and no topline. Its been almost 4 months. We have had crappy weather. He has 2 feeds a day with buildupmix, sugerbeet, chaff, oil, codlivine, garlic, fenugreek, bloodsalts, and antisuck (he used to crib, but dosnt any more) I have not been able to work him as much as i was as the weather has been so bad and the ground icy, and in the space of 2 weeks he has already lost some topline and neck muscle. so it dosnt take long for it to happen. When he came you coudl see the bones along his back and his ribs. Bow you can just about feel them and he is clipped as well. He is goose rumped and needs the work to build muscle up over his back. When he first arived his rump was light a triangle.

This is charles when i got him.
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This is him now.
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My limited understanding is, when a horse is working properly, from behind and using its back freely etc, they should develop a nice topline. Worth asking in stable yard as there are sme very good 'foodies' there and also Comp riders as they can help with how to achieve a correct topline.
 
yes i agree with that , charles was nto ridden in an outline for over 2 years before i got him, and did not track up or use his back end at all. Now he does and his paces are a lot more loose and flowing. He finds it harder to work in an outline as he was used to being ridden hollwo for so long. It takes a lot of work to get him workign correctly. i lunge him a lot in a passoa, so he is using his back without having to lug me around as well. Its all too easy for him to go hollow whilst ridden and not use him self. After 2 weeks of him being on the same feed, and not a lot of work and seeing how much topline he as lost again, it goes to show that work is the key.
Ideally he needs working everyday in an outline for a good 30 mins along side his diet. It was only doing this that i saw a difference to his topline. to begin with his back was not strong enougth to work in an outline and to carry a rider. So i lunged a lot, and foudn as he started to build up his back he was able to work in an outline undersaddle, and wow what a difference
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I would say from the photos she is probably a condition score 2.5, as you can just see her ribs, and is a little angular over the hindquarters. Healthy condition is in the region of condition score 2.5 to 3, although aesthetically a lot of owners like their horses to be at least a 3, which is why there are so many fat horses about!

You need to find out whether your mare is losing, maintaining or gaining weight at the moment before you make a decision about her feed. I would suggest weightaping her once a week to see whether her weight is going up or down. It is likely that now she is on lots of hay her weight will slowly increase or remain constant and in that case it would be wise not to change onto a conditioning feed, especially as you are new to each other and could do without any unwanted fireworks!

Topline refers to the muscle development along the back, neck and hindquarters of the horse - ideally this should be of quite a rounded, curved appearance, rather than angular and/or sagging. Topline depends on various factors including weight, conformation, soundness and schooling. Whilst your mare is a little weak in this department, I don't really think she is that bad and I can definitely say I have seen a lot worse!
 
She looks an ideal weight to me. Her topline can and should be improved by working her correcly.
 
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

I think I will start to measure her weekly so that I know what direction her weight is going. I suspect it is increasing because of the hay she is eating. You are right that I don't want to change her diet incase of 'fireworks' - I'm not ready to ride a 'handful'
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I will ask the instructor on the yard to give me some lessons to show me how to ride her so that she can develop the topline - I'm sure she will know what I need to specifically do and also talk me through how I am riding so that I can get it right.

So, I shall hopefully be reporting back in a months time with some improvements.

Thanks again

Holly B
 
Topline is often used simpley to decribe the muscle over the top half of the body. Horses working correctly develop good back muscle, muscle over the quarters and on the top of the neck. The stomach muscle also tighten and they get 'abs' (although you can't really see them - the belly just becomes less saggy).

It makes them looks like they are curved upwards like an upside down bowl, with everything being held up by their 'topline' (their muscle on top).

An unfit or unmuscled horse lacks 'topline' and they have nothing ontop to hold up their extensive intestinse and rib cage. The belly sags downwards and the ribcage drop and they curved downwards like a -right-way-up bowl.

Old horses esp loose/lack topline as they find it hard to put on and maintain the topline muscles.

You also have plenty of horses who have little true 'topline' just lots of fat which make them LOOK like they have lots of muscles on the top. That, coupled with tight abdomen (fat doesn't mean they need to be unfit too), gives you the 'show horse' fat look so many hate, yet is loved for the show ring.
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In your mares case, stuffing her full of food and making her fat will give her a 'false' topline of fat, but she'll also keep the saggy stomach muscles and therefore have a huge belly too - it'll just make her look pregnant
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Topline comes from correct work.

The hind quarters need to be stepping under the horse and pushing them along and the head and neck need to curl inwards (an 'outline'), which allowed the spine to curve upwards. They are linked but the quarters need to come first.

Someone descibed the working of horse ages ago to me in terms of physics, which made sense:

Imagine a flexible ruler. You can push in the middle (the 'back') and the ends (the head and the hindlimbs) point upwards, doing nothing useful. Or you can push the ends down and in (head curling under, hindlimbs stepping under) and the middle (the back) rises. The upwards curve is by far the stongest and the heavy weight in the middle (the rider) is best supported. With a sagging back the weight is slung between the two pillars (front and back legs) constantly dragging on them and all spinal attatchements.

To be able to curve upwards like that the abdomenal muscles (under side of the curve) need to be strong enough to contract and hold the guts up (to stop them dragging the curve back down). The back (top side of the curve) needs to be relaxed and flexible enough to stretch with the curve, whilst being strong enough to stop the riders weight inverting the curve.

It can be easily messed up. A tense horse cannot relax enough for the back muscle to relax. A heavy or bouncing rider makes the back sore and forces the curve to invert, as does saddle pain. Not pushing from behind (lazyiness, hindlimb pain) means the back never curves up in the first place. Ditto if the front end cannot curl under (i.e mouth pain) Forcing the head down (i.e gadgets) without the hindend stepping under causes the bum to flip up and trail behind, with the back sagging.

It's very simplified but gives a good idea of the basics, and how they can be messed up.

The takehome message is the horse need to be comfortable and relaxed, then asked to step under actively, allowed to lift the back (competant riding and comforable saddle) and incouraged to lower and curl the head and neck in. The head and neck comes naturally if the other two are correct, but encouraging it does help! Your instuctor should be able to help you with the how. Some however are rubbish at explainig the WHY!
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P.s sorry for the rabbiting on. Hope it makes sense.
 
I still think she's a cracker
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Ad Lib hay is perfect, you could up her Alfa A and add corn oil instead of vegetable oil. Or just change her on to Alfa A oil. Linseed may help with her coat. Simple Systems do a ready cooked powder which is palatable and easy to use. Alternatively, given her age you could give her a dose of Cod Liver Oil, will help with joints as well as her coat.Hard feed wise, I really like Build up personally.

Apart from that it's all going to be down to correct work.

Lovely to hear you are getting on so well
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