old horse out on loan to be pts? advice please

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Harriephebs

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Hi guys, my first pony rosie is out on loan and has been for the last 3/4 years. I got a phone call the other day that shocked me. The first words that were said were i need you to write a letter to give permission to have her pts.
She told me she is crippled with arthritis. As i was at work i text just to as what is being done and she said she is on 2 butes a day. shes a big heavy 13.2 but i think this would be her max amount. Anyway i have had her 11 years and some people have told be just to trust these people and send a letter as i should remember her fit and healthy others are saying go and see for myself, i'm planning to go but i have never had a horse with arthritis so what am i looking for? she is 26 now so she is going to look old but could just do with some advice off you guys before i go please.
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Ask more questions belfore you go, the call the other day would have been a shock for you. You need to know what are the symptoms of the arthritis, how long has she been affected, what is her care regime at the moment and most importantly who is the vet, so you can discuss it with them and be guided by their long term prognosis
 
I had to make the same decision, but on the other side about a pony we had on loan. He was a companion to my elderly horse, between them they had had a bad winter with laminitis and lymphangitis attacks one after the other (despite careful management!!!!). The loan pony was over 30 and would get stressed away from his friend, they had been together for 4 years. I suggested PTS for both of them together as I genuinely thought this was in their best interests and the least stressful outcome for both. The pony's owner was, of course very upset, but happy to agree with my judgement as I had been looking after both of them for a long time.

If you have the chance, go visit your pony, but also trust your loanees!
 
You really need to see the pony and talk to whichever vet they have had out. They can't have your pony put to sleep without you checking that this is the only thing to be done.
 
When did you last see your pony, is it a sudden deterioration? If she is on 2 bute a day it does sound as if pts would be kindest, but I would definitely go and see her yourself. I had my old pony pts due to arthritis, but she had it for years and gradually got worse. Her knees were swollen and she went from being stiff to being lame, even on bute, and began to struggle to get up, that was when I decided she had had enough. It does sound as if your loaners weren't overly sensitive in the way they told you the news, sorry it was such a shock, but they do seem to have your pony's best interests at heart.
 
Hi Harriephebs,

I think it was very insensitive of the loaners to let you know this way, but it does sound like they have the best interests of your pony at heart.

If I was you I would go and see the pony asap, and also speak with the vet who has been treating the pony - then you can discuss with the vet and loaners and agree on the best way forward for the pony.

If the pony is elderly and unsound even on 2 bute a day it sounds like pts may be the likely outcome - but you wont know until you go and see the pony and speak to the vet,

Fingers crossed for a more positive outcome,

Gem
 
Did you not know the horse had arthritus? Have you not visited over the last few years? Sorry if this sounds odd but I would have been kept in touch with what was wrong with my horse.

Ask for the vets telephone number and talk to them yourself as it is your horse and you need to know the ins and outs and what has been done in the last few years and how long they have been treating your horse for this.
 
we recently had to have a very old pony PTS at her loan home. she'd been there 9 years i think, and was tearing around the field with her mates, slipped and ruptured a tendon.

they called us after the vet had seen and given his prognosis. She was to be retired this summer anyway, so we agreed with them and the vet to see how she got on, but she never really started to heal so we all made a decision that we'd rather she went without prolonging the discomfort.

This was all done by phone as we are nearly 100 miles from them. They offered for us to go and see her before but we couldn't make it.

I think it comes down to how much you know them and trust them. We had no cause to think they were pulling the wool at all, and we've had confirmation from the vet that pts.

If you are in any doubt, go see her, and if you're still not sure ask to speak to their vet.
 
I would trust the loaners judgement .
They see the pony daily and won't have taken the decision lightly.
Be grateful they cared enough to spend the money on making her last years comfortable, and that she's reached 26 .
By all means go and say goodbye but perhaps remembering her fit and well may be better, it depends on what you feel is best for you.
 
I was in this situation about three years ago. Except I was the person with the loan horse.

Like your loaners - I had to telephone the owner to tell her that the horse (who was known to have issues) was deteriating. Prior to calling her, I had had the vet up to examine him and to tell him of my concerns.

The horses owner and I discussed at length the best course of action. She spoke to the vet - paid the horse one last visit, and together we made the decision to have the horse PTS.

Freddy was an ex steeplechaser, but only 15 years old. He had arthritis which had become chronic. And was also experiencing episodes of collapse.

Such a sad, sad day for all involved. But our only concerns were for him.

So I would encourage you to go and visit your pony. Discuss the issue with the loaners and the vet treating him - and make (quite probably) the saddest decision of your life.

Good luck, and hugs.
 
This happened to me with a pony we had. he was in his twenties and the loan home contacted me to say he was struggling to eat properly as his teeth were deteriorating. It was told to me very sympathetically and I was asked if I wanted to go and see for myself. I did go. A sad moment but the decision was the best for him.
I felt the Loaners did everything correctly.It must have been as difficult for them as it was for me.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would trust the loaners judgement .
They see the pony daily and won't have taken the decision lightly.
Be grateful they cared enough to spend the money on making her last years comfortable, and that she's reached 26 .
By all means go and say goodbye but perhaps remembering her fit and well may be better, it depends on what you feel is best for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Echo this 100%.

I've been on the other end of this equation. A pony in my care had reached the end of the road & I had the devils own job getting the owners to give their consent. In the end they actually made the pony over to my ownership as they 'couldn't bear to sign the death warrent'....................which of course also meant I paid the bill !!
 
We've had two ponies here on loan that were put down in their old age. Neither pony was acutely ill, so it wasn't a matter of needing permission imminently, both owners prevaricated but did not visit, and it made what was already a painful time for my daughter a lot worse. There comes a point where an old pony can't be mended, and managing its arthritis/Cushings/dental problems/COPD, and one of ours all four of these conditions, is not necessarily the best thing for the pony concerned. I think I would trust the owner, give your permission, ask for a recent photo perhaps, but allow them to deal with the practicalities as well as their own grief, they have been good enough to look after the pony in its last years and should equally be good enough to look after its end.
 
Hi Guys (long post)
thanks for your advice, so i went to see Rosie and im so glad i did!!!
She still the happy pony i remember. So previous to going i was told she was on 2 butes a day, lost loads of weight, the vet said if she got down she wouldnt get back up again.
So i went expecting to see a pony on deaths door. This however isn't what i saw. Yes she has lost weight but she is not skin and bone, i can barely feel her ribs! It seems to be mainly muscle she has lost which is expected i guess. The loaner told me she was ridden in the holidays and cantered up a hill and she said you could tell she was struggling. Her neice also has walked her out she said but it does take her some time to get going! She's a 26/27 year old pony!
She is only actually on half a bute a day so a maintenance amount. but they do build this up to 2 when weather is very icey and cold. She was still the cheeky pony shes always been. She has definitely got arthritis you can see it in her legs.
I got her as a surprise 13th birthday present 11 years ago, my sister learnt to ride on her. Rosie was 15/16 when we got her and other than having foals and being a trotter i dont know her history. Obviously the trotting hasn't helped her legs now.
I did a couple of videos of her, would really like your help here guys. Its really hard because these loaners have been good but are pushing this is the only way, which i dont believe (i have kinda convinced myself already!) What is really hard though is we lost our boy last year and my little sister really struggled with that and this would be the icing on the cake. Please have a look at the vids and im trying to get some photos on her but have no idea so any advice would help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgpJuQdwLGM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmbySoOYmXM&feature=channel
 
Hi Guys (long post)
thanks for your advice, so i went to see Rosie and im so glad i did!!!
She still the happy pony i remember. So previous to going i was told she was on 2 butes a day, lost loads of weight, the vet said if she got down she wouldnt get back up again.
So i went expecting to see a pony on deaths door. This however isn't what i saw. Yes she has lost weight but she is not skin and bone, i can barely feel her ribs! It seems to be mainly muscle she has lost which is expected i guess. The loaner told me she was ridden in the holidays and cantered up a hill and she said you could tell she was struggling. Her neice also has walked her out she said but it does take her some time to get going! She's a 26/27 year old pony!
She is only actually on half a bute a day so a maintenance amount. but they do build this up to 2 when weather is very icey and cold. She was still the cheeky pony shes always been. She has definitely got arthritis you can see it in her legs.
I got her as a surprise 13th birthday present 11 years ago, my sister learnt to ride on her. Rosie was 15/16 when we got her and other than having foals and being a trotter i dont know her history. Obviously the trotting hasn't helped her legs now.
I did a couple of videos of her, would really like your help here guys. Its really hard because these loaners have been good but are pushing this is the only way, which i dont believe (i have kinda convinced myself already!) What is really hard though is we lost our boy last year and my little sister really struggled with that and this would be the icing on the cake. Please have a look at the vids and im trying to get some photos on her but have no idea so any advice would help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgpJuQdwLGM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmbySoOYmXM&feature=channel [image]http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/harriephebs/?action=view&current=IMG_0454.jpg[/image]

[image]http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/harriephebs/?action=view&current=IMG_0455.jpg[/image]

[image]http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/harriephebs/?action=view&current=IMG_0457.jpg[/image]
 
Have you spoken to the vet at all? I think it's the only way you can make an informed decision, particularly if the loaners are pushing things.
 
Sorry forgot to mention that, i asked to speak to the vet and she said you are more than welcome but he hasnt seen her for over a year.
 
I think she may be carrying slightly too much weight
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and this is adding to the mix? Looks a perfectly well pony to me and tbh I'd be saying a big thank you to the loaners for their love and care so far - and take her home if they really want to put her down. Make the decision in your own time, but I don't think it's urgent. Ask why they really think she's had enough and then have a chat with the vet who has been attending. Involve them as they have had a big input lately, but as the owner you have the final say.

I looked after a pony for a family for twelve years and when my circumstances altered, he couldn't cope and eventually he went off to retire to a proper home for retireds. They actually disagreed with me initially that he needed retiring and tried to rehome him into a working home. I wasn't at all happy, but, bless him, he put them straight himself and finally they did the right thing by him. He spent another four or five years in a small herd and the lap of luxury before he started having problems getting up. The 'home' owner advised pts one day when it took three people to help him to his feet in the stable, and they let him out to graze as per, but feared for him if he got down again. His actual owner didn't quite make it there in time to say goodbye, but understood the urgency and sanctioned it. That decision I fully agreed with.
 
I have added another photo of before she went and looked very fat, but its how she always looked and was alway in loads of work. i think it was more of a low belly from all the foals (maybe im making excuses!)

http://s825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/harriephebs/?action=view&current=P3270170.jpg

Thanks for your comments brighteyes personally i dont think she is too fat because i have known her like the above photo for years. If you look at the front on photos you will see how wide she is between her legs. She a very big stocky 13.2hh bless her!
would you still talk to a vet who hadnt seen her for a year?
 
Would it be an option to get a vet out to see her? This would be the first thing I would do I think. If the loaners haven't had one they can't possibly say she needs to be PTS.
 
I'm surprised the Vet is prescribing bute if they haven't seen the pony in over a year. I thought they were meant to be checked every 6 months.
I wonder if, deep down, they are hoping you will take the pony back but feel awkward about after such a long time. On the other hand maybe they think that this winter may be too harsh on the pony if they go up to 2 bute in cold weather & that it's better to pts before it's in too much pain. Remember if it's lame on bute it's still in pain.
It is hard when you are a loaner & you have to tell an owner that their horse is ill. I had the situation that I had to tell an owner that not only was their horse very ill (liver failure & we had only had him a few weeks) but that it was in it's mid to late 20's rather than the 15 they thought. Believe me that is not an easy conversation for either party.
 
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Sorry forgot to mention that, i asked to speak to the vet and she said you are more than welcome but he hasnt seen her for over a year.

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What?
They are planning to pts on the advice of a professional or on their own advice? If they are planning to pts on their own advice because the vet hasn't even seen her for a year I would be seriously questioning their judgement.
 
Well, regardless of what you decide it would seem that the loan has come to its natural conclussion. So you'll need to make arrangements to take her home. I'd watch her over the winter and see how it goes.

I must say she looks very, very well (ie a tad fat) and if she does have arthritis this won't help. And it's difficult to tell how this may be affecting her as we haven't seen her walking.

However, if she's carrying that much weight then I would hazard the guess that she can't be in much discomfort. So on that alone - no I wouldn't even consider pts - or at least until she's been thoroughly checked.
 
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