Old horses - are people getting unrealistic?

marmalade76 said:
Put them through colic surgery? No, which I have already stated.
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What has that got to do with me not having children?

I take it you mean that you wouldn't have your children put through the same?

Can you also explain then why you highlighted your response to me on your previous post as 'not at the expense of my family, no'??
 
YOU stated thast YOU would 'go to the ends of the earth' for your horse which suggests that you woud do whatever it takes for your horse no matter what the cost. Some of us think that there are more important things in life than horses and quite often (though not always) it's those of us who have other humans dependant on us that think that way.

Of course, I am pro hunting so what would I know about being an animal lover, eh? ;)
 
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marmalade76 said:
YOU stated thast YOU would 'go to the ends of the earth' for you horse which suggests that you woud do whatever it takes for your horse no matter what the cost. Some of us think that there are more important things in life than horses and quite often (though not always) it's those of us who have other humans dependant on us that think that way.
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I have repeatedly said 'IF YOU COULD AFFORD IT'.

Can you read?

Quite frankly, I also find your comments quite offensive with regard my lack of children. You keep making the point. I am saying that even if I had children, then IF I HAD THE MONEY, THE TIME, AND MY VET AND ME FELT THAT MY HORSE WAS PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY ABLE TO COPE WITH SURGERY AND RECOVERY, THEN I WOULD DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO ENSURE THAT SHE GOT IT.

You are clearly unable to comprehend this.
 
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Colic surgery is rarely a one-off surgical procedure. Often the horse will have to undergo further surgical treatment and/or intensive nursing. Horses who have had colic surgery often have repeat colic episodes afterwards and they can also come down with secondary problems which can become critical hence many horses who have had colic surgery are PTS eventually. The short term survival rates aren't great but they're not too bad either, however the long term survival rates are not good. That alone is enough for me to not have one of my horses go through colic surgery even if I did live closer than 4-5 hours away from the major vet hospital.

Not sure how children were brought into the conversation but in answer to your question Moomin about whether us people who would not consider colic surgery for their horses would allow similar surgery on our children, I don't think you can possibly compare the horses internal structure to a humans, and yes absolutely of course I would have my children treated surgically because the success rate is very high and although my horses are very important to me, I'm sorry but they are not in the same league as my children.
 
Spring Feather said:
Colic surgery is rarely a one-off surgical procedure. Often the horse will have to undergo further surgical treatment and/or intensive nursing. Horses who have had colic surgery often have repeat colic episodes afterwards and they can also come down with secondary problems which can become critical hence many horses who have had colic surgery are PTS eventually. The short term survival rates aren't great but they're not too bad either, however the long term survival rates are not good. That alone is enough for me to not have one of my horses go through colic surgery even if I did live closer than 4-5 hours away from the major vet hospital.

Not sure how children were brought into the conversation but in answer to your question Moomin about whether us people who would not consider colic surgery for their horses would allow similar surgery on our children, I don't think you can possibly compare the horses internal structure to a humans, and yes absolutely of course I would have my children treated surgically because the success rate is very high and although my horses are very important to me, I'm sorry but they are not in the same league as my children.
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It is not me who is comparing
 
Moomin1 said:
I would, and will, do that despite having children.

If you don't feel that necessary with your animals, that's your choice. I personally don't understand that logic.
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I *think* I see exactly what marmalade76 is getting at,and TBH moomin1 I think you would view it differently if you had other responsibilities such as m76 is talking about.

It's not just about money or if you can afford it,there's the time and commitment for recovery.

I wouldn't allow my horse to have colic surgery,not solely due to money as he's insured (have to say though is I had to find the money then i definitely wouldn't even if i did physically have the money,couldn't justify the expense on a pet and that's that),but there would be extra expenses with rehab and the time i would have to commit to his recovery would not be practical for me and would require sacrifices on the part of my family,and as it's very much my choice to have horses and not theirs I wouldn't ask that of them,it wouldn't be fair IMO.

I think if you have a horse and it is your main priority,and you are able to dedicate yourself to it and any needs it has then obviously decisions about surgery etc are probably a little less complicated.
If you have other commitments such as children then you have to see a bigger picture and your decision has to take everyone into account not just your own feelings and wishes.That's how i see it anyway and the sort of thing I *think* marmalade76 was meaning.
 
In response to your question OP I think you are out of touch! 20 is no age for a horse these days, it is common to find horses heading towards 30 and upwards that are still working daily, perhaps not to the same levels as when they were in their teens but working none the less. I don't think it is a serious welfare issue either, that, IMO, would be owners who rehome elderly horses without much care of where they go rather than making the responsible decision. Caring owners know their own horse and whether or not it is viable to have whatever treatment is necessary (speaking about older horses here, not in general). There may be an issue of wanting to do everything possible to extend life but if is was clearly not viable then a vet would not support that decision.

FWIW, I also think it was insensitive to post this thread at this time!
 
I think it totally depends on the horse.

Mine aren't in their 20s but for sake of comparison, I have a 16 year old and a 15 year old. The 16 year old has severe navicular. I wouldn't put her through it as best case scenario I think she will have to be pts in a year anyway and I wouldn't want her to go through it when she is close to the end anyway.

If vet recommended it for my 15 year old i would absolutely go ahead. He is in full work, BE and BS and shows no sign of 'age'.

If we were in the same situation in 5 or 10 years, I think it would be the same. Provided he was still in full work and otherwise healthy.
 
I have a 20year old and if she had something wrong with her to the point she had to have surgery we would have her put down but only because she wouldn't cope with it as she is very stressy and is always On the edge and I don't know if she would survive it.

If my now 6 year old was 20 and had to have surgery I would do it because I know he would cope with it, although I can't say for certain because it depends on our circumstances in 14 years.
 
Definitely depends on the horse. Horses are living much longer these days. Having said that, many years ago we took on a 22yo Blue Cross rescue (we didn't think about age at all back then) he had 4 years of ridden life before he started stumbling so we decided to retire him - the b*gger lived to the ripe old age of 36!

We currently have a 29yo ex racer, a 27 yo (my 14.2hh pony) and a 22 yo (my horse). Would we put the 29yp through surgery - No. He is a stresser and I don't think it would be fair. The 27 yo? Doubtful, I have had him 19 years and he's never been ill. Therefore IF he got colic or something then that would be the sign for me that age has got to him or there is an underlying health issue. My 22yo - I would consider it. I've had him since he was 4 and do not see him as old (neither does he), he is still ridden regularly and competes (albeit at a lower level these days) so, if there was a chance with him then maybe I would take it. Plus, we have 3 equine hospitals within a reasonable travelling distance (I think that's another factor to consider).

Everyone's different but having had many oldies over the years, just because we deem them as being 'veterans', doesn't mean they feel they are!! :)
 
The only time our oldie has ever looked sorry for himself was when we were getting his Cushings under control... He's now back to his usual cheeky self and is ridden 4 times a week.

Colic surgery... It would depend on the situation. I wouldn't discount it just because he's over 20 and "could drop down any minute".
 
Not sure about colic surgery (thankfully I've never had to research it & hope I never do as I'm not insured) but I think you don't know how far you would go with an elderly horse until you are put on the spot. And it does (I guess) depend on finances & whether your horses are primarily pets / family members or there to do a job. My old girl (32 this year) has been with me for 28 years & is very much a pet. She retired about 8 years ago & I'd always said that, if she was no longer coping / couldn't live out with her herd (albeit with top end rugs / hard feed / bute for her arthritis) I'd have her PTS as I didn't think she'd cope with living in.

Then came this winter. She dropped condition rapidly, started losing hair on her face and developed mud fever. She was clearly no longer coping with life out in the herd. However, she was still her usual feisty self & hadn't given up. Fast forward a month & she's stabled, on full livery & (with the support of my yard owner & a helpful equine nutritionist) is putting on weight despite having virtually no teeth. Her hair is growing back, her mudfever is (finally) improving, she is glossy & seems to be enjoying life as a largely stabled horse. The aim is to get some weight back on her, give her a spring & summer back out with her herd & then reassess.
 
OMFG, why do some people assume everything is about them? Serena, I've not read your thread, it doesn't interest me and I doubt it had anything at all to do with this one. Either respond to the topic or read something else. :mad:

OP, yes I think some people are unrealistic, but more so about fixing multiple problems in horses who are never going to be right, just as much in young horses as old ones. If a twenty year old who is a fit, strong, sound horse is ill, its probably more worth saving than an eight year old who's lame behind, lame in front and with a bad back in between.
 
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TO all of you who continued to criticise me for this thread AFTER I HAD ASKED FOR IT TO BE PULLED

it is YOU

who continued to cause harm to Serena and not me. You should have let the thread die with my last post if all you posted for was to criticise me. Shame on you all.

Serena I apologise for mentioning your horse's case and I hope all is well with him. It is no excuse, but I will stop posting after drinking a bottle of wine.
 
Flame- your opinion doesn't interest me when u haven't read all the posts and still pass judgement. I didn't assume this post was about me! If u read everything u would understand. But u just jump on the band wagon eh!

In response to this post I don't feel I need to defend my decision. Maybe I'd feel differently if it hadn't been posted within minutes of me asking for support in my situation!
 
Serena I have asked again for it to be pulled. Please spare yourself further upset by leaving the thread alone until that is done, and can everyone else please do the same.
 
we had a 33yr old horse at our yard, he wasn't being ridden because he was too old and didnt have much condition but that little horse was looked after 100% and he never suffered, he was eventually put down because he suffered a broken leg.

we still have a 30yr old (could be older I'm not to sure) who is still going strong and keeps our youngsters in line!

I think it depends on each horse/owners circumstances!
 
cptrayes- I understand peoples views are not all the same for such a awful subject , thank you for your apology, I did see u request to remove the post which I appreciate. And others have carried it on.
 
Let it die folks, for goodness sake.

Serena thankyou for that, it was extremely thoughtless of me. I'll be checking your thread in the hope your boy has come through OK.
 
This thread is quite close to my heart at the moment, as my own mare has just turned 20. She is my first and only horse - my parents bought her for me when I was 11 and she was 8 and she has been part of the family ever since. She has been out of work for the best part of 12 months for one reason or another, and I have been having a crisis of conscience over whether to bring her back into work or simply retire her. She is very full of life, and is far livelier and full of beans than my sister's 9 yr old, so my current way of thinking is to start slowly and see how we go (we're just doing long-reining atm, which is good fun and would I think be a good exercise to continue even if I do decide to retire her). I had a short ride on her last weekend, just round my YO's fields, and she was very lively and insisted on jogging and leaping about all over the place (I was like this :D when we got back to the yard). But I don't want to be unrealistic about what she can/ can't do as she does have cushings and arthritis, so I have made a pact with myself never to push her to do more than she can because I want her to keep on being this funny, lively, spirited horse for as long as possible.
 
Moomin1 said:
I have repeatedly said 'IF YOU COULD AFFORD IT'.

Can you read?

Quite frankly, I also find your comments quite offensive with regard my lack of children. You keep making the point. I am saying that even if I had children, then IF I HAD THE MONEY, THE TIME, AND MY VET AND ME FELT THAT MY HORSE WAS PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY ABLE TO COPE WITH SURGERY AND RECOVERY, THEN I WOULD DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO ENSURE THAT SHE GOT IT.

You are clearly unable to comprehend this.
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I have no trouble comprehending what you are saying, and as I said before, no to colic surgery, no to fixing a broken leg, etc. Some things are just not worth fixing, the trauma of treatment and the lengthy recovery is just not worth putting a horse through IMO, regardless of how much time and money I have on my hands.
 
devonlass said:
I *think* I see exactly what marmalade76 is getting at,and TBH moomin1 I think you would view it differently if you had other responsibilities such as m76 is talking about.

It's not just about money or if you can afford it,there's the time and commitment for recovery.

I wouldn't allow my horse to have colic surgery,not solely due to money as he's insured (have to say though is I had to find the money then i definitely wouldn't even if i did physically have the money,couldn't justify the expense on a pet and that's that),but there would be extra expenses with rehab and the time i would have to commit to his recovery would not be practical for me and would require sacrifices on the part of my family,and as it's very much my choice to have horses and not theirs I wouldn't ask that of them,it wouldn't be fair IMO.

I think if you have a horse and it is your main priority,and you are able to dedicate yourself to it and any needs it has then obviously decisions about surgery etc are probably a little less complicated.
If you have other commitments such as children then you have to see a bigger picture and your decision has to take everyone into account not just your own feelings and wishes.That's how i see it anyway and the sort of thing I *think* marmalade76 was meaning.
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Absolutely and thank you!
 
I have had two horses that were well in their twenties when they had to be PTS. My friends mare was in her mid thirties. Up until the time they where happy and healthy (with a few niggles)

They had happy retirements with us and had everything they needed and alot of love.

We would never of rehomed them at that age or had them PTS because they couldn't be ridden. They had given us years of pleasure and now it was our turn to repay that xx
 
cptrayes said:
I am reading an increasing number of posts on all sorts of different subjects (verterinary, sale, rehoming) where people are talking about horses over 20 years old as if they are still in the peak of life.

For me, any horse over 20 could pop its clogs at any time. To reach 25 still in work I consider to be very lucky. I've just read of a 21 year old going through major colic surgery with intestine removal.

Are vets operating on and otherwise keeping alive horses that should be put to sleep? Are horses being kept alive beyond when they should be by owners who can't bear to part with them? Or am I just out of touch with modern horse medicine and the longevity of modern horses?



ps I mean horses, not ponies, ponies have always had the capacity to live a lot longer than horses.
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20 is NOT old imho, with the improvement in nutrition and veterinary care it is the new 14. My Anglo, broke her leg at 10 and was still in work until she was 26, lost her last year to colic aged 32. So yes, I do think you are out of touch with modern medicine.

If the horse owner and the vet decide that an op or whatever will prolong a horses life whilst also giving quality of life, it is absolutely no one else's business.
 
cptrayes said:
I am reading an increasing number of posts on all sorts of different subjects (verterinary, sale, rehoming) where people are talking about horses over 20 years old as if they are still in the peak of life.

For me, any horse over 20 could pop its clogs at any time. To reach 25 still in work I consider to be very lucky. I've just read of a 21 year old going through major colic surgery with intestine removal.

Are vets operating on and otherwise keeping alive horses that should be put to sleep? Are horses being kept alive beyond when they should be by owners who can't bear to part with them? Or am I just out of touch with modern horse medicine and the longevity of modern horses?



ps I mean horses, not ponies, ponies have always had the capacity to live a lot longer than horses.
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Yes I agree my vet wanted to keep my old boy resurrected! I said NO and PTS. Being realistic and humane was my priority and I took the attitude if it aint leading a horses life better PTS. My feelings never came into it. I did what was best for my animal and not my vets bank account. My vet was a stroppy bag over my decision. I could hear my horse creaking from 100 yards away. Time to call it a day.You are right I agree with what you have said.
 
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