Older-dog training(?)

[[118739]]

Interested to see how others would approach, the internet is full of treat-based advice.

How would you go about re-training an older dog (10 yo fit ex working sheepdog) to recall reliably off lead/stay within an acceptable distance of you if:

- food/treats as a reward/positive reinforcement were not an option.
- it has been known to go wilfully deaf (always comes back in <minutes, but does run out of line of sight).
- can only be lead on a chain as bites through anything else (cutting out all long lead options im aware of).

Not my dog, but loosely considering transitioning her to yard pet if she could be trained to stay close & trusted not to shoot off in search of work, but the wilfully deaf bit is very unnerving & not sure how to correct.

 

[Iznurgle]

Possible controversial option: I've been researching e-collars (that vibrate then move up to levels of shock). I'm not keen on them, my own dog has great recall 95% of the time with R+ training, but we've had occasions where he's bolted off after a horse in the field, or chased a squirrel too far and completely evaded me for far too long. I've not yet bit the bullet and have instead upped my situational awareness and leashing, but my livery YO uses one on her greyhound who tends to kill rabbits, and has had great success. There's a few FB pages that go into quite deep discussion, and they're clearly not for overusing it, which is important to me. They're not a quick fix, they take training and work, but they seem to be very effective for recall issues.

 

[[118739]]

Possible controversial option: I've been researching e-collars (that vibrate then move up to levels of shock). I'm not keen on them, my own dog has great recall 95% of the time with R+ training, but we've had occasions where he's bolted off after a horse in the field, or chased a squirrel too far and completely evaded me for far too long. I've not yet bit the bullet and have instead upped my situational awareness and leashing, but my livery YO uses one on her greyhound who tends to kill rabbits, and has had great success. There's a few FB pages that go into quite deep discussion, and they're clearly not for overusing it, which is important to me. They're not a quick fix, they take training and work, but they seem to be very effective for recall issues.

I hadn’t even thought of this before posting, but I don’t think it would be appropriate to consider the e-collar route in this case as I don’t own the dog. Thanks for highlighting it though & good luck!

 

[Iznurgle]

I hadn’t even thought of this before posting, but I don’t think it would be appropriate to consider the e-collar route in this case as I don’t own the dog. Thanks for highlighting it though & good luck!

Ah, I misread the circumstances of the dog. I'd probably start with recall with a toy (pull rope, ball on string, etc) as a reward, plus pets if the dog likes it, just getting the dog to come over with a voice queue and enthusiastic shaking of the toy. Then I'd try looking for a really high quality long line, maybe even climbing rope as it's very tough/sturdy and comes in long lengths, and work on the recall with toy as reward from further distances, with varying levels of distraction around you as you progress in length and attention. A "watch me" command is also very valuable, I like using a clicker to get this down, clicking when they make eye contact and rewarding with toy play, then attaching a word to it. Clicker training generally might be helpful, but using a toy or pets as a reward takes longer than with treats.

 

[skinnydipper]

Possible controversial option: I've been researching e-collars (that vibrate then move up to levels of shock). I'm not keen on them, my own dog has great recall 95% of the time with R+ training, but we've had occasions where he's bolted off after a horse in the field, or chased a squirrel too far and completely evaded me for far too long. I've not yet bit the bullet and have instead upped my situational awareness and leashing, but my livery YO uses one on her greyhound who tends to kill rabbits, and has had great success. There's a few FB pages that go into quite deep discussion, and they're clearly not for overusing it, which is important to me. They're not a quick fix, they take training and work, but they seem to be very effective for recall issues.

This might come as a shock to YO but greyhounds were bred as hunting dogs, ie genetically programmed to course game.

So the poor dog is given the opportunity to follow its instincts and then given an electric shock when it does so? That is horrendous.

 

[[118739]]

Ah, I misread the circumstances of the dog. I'd probably start with recall with a toy (pull rope, ball on string, etc) as a reward, plus pets if the dog likes it, just getting the dog to come over with a voice queue and enthusiastic shaking of the toy. Then I'd try looking for a really high quality long line, maybe even climbing rope as it's very tough/sturdy and comes in long lengths, and work on the recall with toy as reward from further distances, with varying levels of distraction around you as you progress in length and attention. A "watch me" command is also very valuable, I like using a clicker to get this down, clicking when they make eye contact and rewarding with toy play, then attaching a word to it. Clicker training generally might be helpful, but using a toy or pets as a reward takes longer than with treats.

I’ll pop out and get her a few toys to see if she fancies any of them & try doing a bit of commands + toy in a different field and see how we get on with that & then move back to the danger zone and see if we can keep her attention. Very long rope could be an option I suppose if i only use it as a way to “catch” her at her zoomy spot, rather than her noticing it as a lead and gnawing it off before we even get there! She does appreciate pets as a reward but they're not as exciting as what’s going on “over there” at the moment. I appreciate it might take longer than with treats but it does sound like we’re already on the right track so that’s good to know, will just refine the technique & try to add a stronger award. Thanks!

 

[TheresaW]

I am certainly no expert, but we have a failed working collie. Like the one you mention, he chewed through a long line before I could blink. He does have good recall, but once locked on to the horses, was impossible to call him off. He’s not loose around the horses now.

When we are out and about, if we see horses approach, he immediately goes into a down. He won’t come to me, but I can work with it and make him “stay” so I can slip lead on him. Birds he will chase half heartedly and always comes back. When we came across some deer once, we “worked” him and he came back.

 

[Clodagh]

This might come as a shock to YO but greyhounds were bred as hunting dogs, ie genetically programmed to course game.

So the poor dog is given the opportunity to follow its instincts and then given an electric shock when it does so? That is horrendous.

I wasn’t sure how to answer that post, but I think you nailed it.
Poor long dog.

 

[[118739]]

I am certainly no expert, but we have a failed working collie. Like the one you mention, he chewed through a long line before I could blink. He does have good recall, but once locked on to the horses, was impossible to call him off. He’s not loose around the horses now.

When we are out and about, if we see horses approach, he immediately goes into a down. He won’t come to me, but I can work with it and make him “stay” so I can slip lead on him. Birds he will chase half heartedly and always comes back. When we came across some deer once, we “worked” him and he came back.

Something like this is I guess, best case scenario. I was hoping she’d be able to eventually tootle about the place as she pleases if I could only teach her the boundaries of where “home” is but it is probably a bit of an ask by now, she’s pretty set in her ways/doesn’t really know where the farm ends. Luckily she does only herd the sheep if she gets in with them, doesn’t scoot off after the horses/cows/wildlife. I was surprised the other day that she whipped straight back when I called her off a pheasant that flew up in front of her nose! There’s just something/somesmell she’s picked up on our walk down to the horses field that sends her shooting off deaf & even though she comes back once she’s done it, I can’t trust her not to push it too far. I’ll keep practicing and see where we get, I’m sure she’d enjoy being able to be a bit more free range - if only she could understand that zoomies NOW aren’t more fun long term!!!

 

[Iznurgle]

This might come as a shock to YO but greyhounds were bred as hunting dogs, ie genetically programmed to course game.
So the poor dog is given the opportunity to follow its instincts and then given an electric shock when it does so? That is horrendous.

You're right, it is a natural instinct, but she also has a tendency to bolt for cats, and kill chickens and guinea fowl. I know she doesn't wear it 24/7, only in situations where she may be overstimulated and likely to override her impulse control, but she's not my dog. I've never used one and suggest it only as something to look into.

 

[AmyMay]

Do you use ‘working’ commands with the dog?

I walk a ‘failed’ BC, and I’ve learnt as many working commands as I can. The dog is a complete delight to walk, is rarely on a lead (unless we’re on the road), and is absolutely 100% responsive to the correct comman.

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[TheresaW]

Something like this is I guess, best case scenario. I was hoping she’d be able to eventually tootle about the place as she pleases if I could only teach her the boundaries of where “home” is but it is probably a bit of an ask by now, she’s pretty set in her ways/doesn’t really know where the farm ends. Luckily she does only herd the sheep if she gets in with them, doesn’t scoot off after the horses/cows/wildlife. I was surprised the other day that she whipped straight back when I called her off a pheasant that flew up in front of her nose! There’s just something/somesmell she’s picked up on our walk down to the horses field that sends her shooting off deaf & even though she comes back once she’s done it, I can’t trust her not to push it too far. I’ll keep practicing and see where we get, I’m sure she’d enjoy being able to be a bit more free range - if only she could understand that zoomies NOW aren’t more fun long term!!!

Bo didn’t scoot off to the horses as such, just has the need to herd. We were in my field, but once he sees them, he’s off circling and nipping heels. Risk of getting kicked too much for me.

 

[[118739]]

Do you use ‘working’ commands with the dog?

I walk a ‘failed’ BC, and I’ve learnt as many working commands as I can. The dog is a complete delight to walk, is rarely on a lead (unless we’re on the road), and is absolutely 100% responsive to the correct comman.

I use the same commands she uses for work yep! She was a little too enthusiastic a worker for the breed of sheep here anyway so she has always been a little hard to bring back if she was on one (at least that’s my understanding!).

ETA: with the exception of come-by and away, they don’t really fit into the walk routine! ?

 

[GSD Woman]

Do you think the owner has the space to let the collie "herd" something like volleyballs or footballs? It might burn off the edge and help with the recall. Also, not off lead unless in a securely fenced area.

 

[AmyMay]

ETA: with the exception of come-by and away, they don’t really fit into the walk routine! ?

That’s not my experience at all.

That’ll do - finish what you’re doing
Stand - down and stay (particularly useful for distance work)
Stay - stay
Wait - wait
Steady - steady and slow down
Here - to me and close
Close - walk to heal

 

[Clodagh]

Funnily enough I use ‘that’ll do’ and ‘stand down, soldier’ with the labs ?

 

[AmyMay]

Funnily enough I use ‘that’ll do’ and ‘stand down, soldier’ with the labs ?

I use it with all the dogs now. ??

 

[[118739]]

That’s not my experience at all.

That’ll do - finish what you’re doing
Stand - down and stay (particularly useful for distance work)
Stay - stay
Wait - wait
Steady - steady and slow down
Here - to me and close
Close - walk to heal

Oh, sorry I meant I DO use her work commands when walking with the exception of the two “come by & away” (directional herding command). They’d be guaranteed to send her off looking for something to gather bAck to me ?

 

[Jenko109]

I think you just need to try and change this dogs motivation. Toys perhaps.

I have used an E-Collar personally for a livestock worrier but I don't know that I would use one for this dog. He's just doing what he's been trained to do his whole life. It would be unfair to punish him for doing something he has been praised so long for doing.

 

[[118739]]

I think you just need to try and change this dogs motivation. Toys perhaps.

I have used an E-Collar personally for a livestock worrier but I don't know that I would use one for this dog. He's just doing what he's been trained to do his whole life. It would be unfair to punish him for doing something he has been praised so long for doing.

Thanks, yes I’m going to try and incorporate toys into our routine.

I politely declined using e-collars on this dog already. I don’t think I’d consider it on any dog but I don’t really want that debate on this thread.

Thanks!

 

[Moobli]

Why is the dog still not working? If she is a fit 10 year old, it sounds like she would still be happy to be working. Sorry, if that isn't a possibility for whatever reason.
Also border collies can suffer from adult onset deafness. It possibly isn't the case here, but it might be worth getting her ears checked out just in case she isn't being "wilfully deaf".